Manchester Exchange: A Missed Opportunity?

[Waverley125]

With the rebuild of Victoria now well underway it's good to see the old place becoming something like the grand old station it once was.

However, given there will still be only 4 through platforms, the ability to run cross-Manchester services from the NE & NW is greatly affected. Particularly problematic given the clear demand, and desire from TPE, for up to 6tph Leeds-Manchester going through Victoria and needing to move across the eastern entry lines.

Would it not have been better to close Victoria's through platforms, give more space for retail expansion in the current building and instead re-open Manchester Exchange, a few hundred metres down the line?

With platforms at Victoria cleared away there'd have been space for 6-line approaches on either side and at least 8 through platforms - much better for running both expresses & local services through from East to West, on routes such as Bradford - Liverpool and Todmorden - Wigan.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Only 4 TPE via Victoria, two go to Piccadilly and Terminate via Guide Bridge.

 

[gordonthemoron]

isn't exchange now GMEX?

 

[Manchester77]

isn't exchange now GMEX?

Nope GMEX is central

 

[Dunc108]

With the rebuild of Victoria now well underway it's good to see the old place becoming something like the grand old station it once was.

However, given there will still be only 4 through platforms, the ability to run cross-Manchester services from the NE & NW is greatly affected. Particularly problematic given the clear demand, and desire from TPE, for up to 6tph Leeds-Manchester going through Victoria and needing to move across the eastern entry lines.

Would it not have been better to close Victoria's through platforms, give more space for retail expansion in the current building and instead re-open Manchester Exchange, a few hundred metres down the line?

With platforms at Victoria cleared away there'd have been space for 6-line approaches on either side and at least 8 through platforms - much better for running both expresses & local services through from East to West, on routes such as Bradford - Liverpool and Todmorden - Wigan.

I've often thought about Exchange over the years and how things might have been had the station survived, I guess Victoria back then still had the platform capacity aswell as loops for the then still significant amount of through freight aswell as ECS workings to Red Bank. Factor in also Exchange's facade and offices had been badly damaged by WW2 bombing leaving Victoria with the only available accommodation for staff, etc, the Manchester Signalling School was also at Victoria so I guess it was simply down to convenience. There were actually plans after the war to close both Victoria and Exchange and build a huge new through station near Exchange called 'Trinity' but it never came to fruition.

A resurrection of Exchange would be interesting but imagine it would cost a fortune to resurrect and would be probably be cheaper to provide an extra through platform at Victoria alongside platform 6. I had thought about Exchange as a Metrolink Hub but as Victoria is also being expanded in that respect, I guess it rules that out.

 

[The Planner]

Nothing terminates in Victoria I thought as part of the hub, so it isn't as much of an issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A resurrection of Exchange would be interesting but imagine it would cost a fortune to resurrect and would be probably be cheaper to provide an extra through platform at Victoria alongside platform 6. I had thought about Exchange as a Metrolink Hub but as Victoria is also being expanded in that respect, I guess it rules that out.

Matters have suddenly taken a move forward yet again with the new interest of the London-based investors, Tristan Capital Partners, in the Greengate Embankment Scheme that involves the land redevelopment of the former Manchester Exchange railway station as this £56 million project now covers the proposed construction of two office blocks on the site of the former railway station, 172,640 square feet and 150,000 square feet, plus a 442 space car park as part of the scheme.

 

[Dunc108]

Nothing terminates in Victoria I thought as part of the hub, so it isn't as much of an issue.

True, and even less will terminate there from May with the new through services. I had thought about providing some turnbacks at Newtown on the site of the former carriage sidings, but I guess making many services as through workings it negates the need for it, I guess there's always a siding or 2 spare at Newton Heath during the day at least for stabling units, plus, platforms 4 & 5 at Victoria do have the luxury of a stabling siding already.

 

[billio]

The site of Exchange station is where Manchesters HS2 station should be.

 

[edwin_m]

Only 4 TPE via Victoria, two go to Piccadilly and Terminate via Guide Bridge.

But is this a consequence of lack of capacity at Victoria?

It leads to the unfortunate situation that Leeds trains are shared between the two stations, so people will get confused about which station to go to. If they all went from Victoria the Airport trains via the Ordsall Curve would still provide some Leeds services from Piccadilly.

Exchange would be slightly nearer the centre of Manchester but with the major disadvantage of no Metrolink service.

 

[Dunc108]

But is this a consequence of lack of capacity at Victoria?

It leads to the unfortunate situation that Leeds trains are shared between the two stations, so people will get confused about which station to go to. If they all went from Victoria the Airport trains via the Ordsall Curve would still provide some Leeds services from Piccadilly.

Exchange would be slightly nearer the centre of Manchester but with the major disadvantage of no Metrolink service.

Some Leeds services will be going via the Ordsall Curve to Piccadilly when it opens.

I always thought Manchester Exchange always lay on the Salford side of the River Irwell? Yes, Metrolink would be a major problem as far as Exchange is concerned with major obstructions for accessing the Bury/Oldham lines and no vacant viaducts to potentially re-use towards Salford.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, Manchester Exchange platforms and buildings were in Salford but the turning off the street was in Manchester, as the approach ramp crossed the Irwell.

 

[Welshman]

I've often thought about Exchange over the years and how things might have been had the station survived, I guess Victoria back then still had the platform capacity aswell as loops for the then still significant amount of through freight aswell as ECS workings to Red Bank.

Of course, Exchange and Victoria came about because of their history - Exchange was used by LNW trains and Victoria by L&Y, and when Exchange closed it was still possible to accommodate the then remaining hourly North Wales and Liverpool-Leeds services at Victoria.

I think there could be some benefit in the often-expressed view of now using the land for the reinstatement of a couple of westward-facing bays as an annexe to the now much reduced Victoria station.

There could even be a long platform connecting the annexe with the main Victoria station - now there's a thought! Perhaps even with a travellator, as at Manchester Piccadilly. Then the lack of connection with Metrolink would not be such a major problem.

For although some local services into Victoria from the west continue eastwards, and vv, I wonder how much of that is for operating convenience rather than passenger demand.

 

[34D]

There could even be a long platform connecting the annexe with the main Victoria station - now there's a thought!

When the through platform was open, did trains call on it twice?

 

[WatcherZero]

As an aside to Paul as hes asked a few times, the office development in the former Exchange station building is still on, a couple of weeks ago Network Rails share in the development was bought out by another investor.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As an aside to Paul as he's asked a few times, the office development in the former Exchange station building is still on, a couple of weeks ago Network Rail's share in the development was bought out by another investor.

Would this be the one that I made reference to in posting # 7 on this new thread.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes thats the one, I dont think size has changed though architectural style has.

 

[Welshman]

When the through platform was open, did trains call on it twice?

No - the platform was effectively split into three - Platform 11 at Victoria, Platform 11 Middle between Victoria & Exchange and Platform 3 at Exchange.

Scissors crossovers enabled trains to avoid the remaining parts of the platform they were not using, so you could in theory have had 3 services using the platform simultaneously, thus giving maximum operating flexibility.

Long trains, such as the Newspaper trains to the North East, straddled platforms 11 and 11 Middle, but, as far as I know, no train was booked to call at both stations.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought the main use of Exchange was as an origin for charters.

 

[HowardGWR]

@WatcherZero
The second is clearly an architectural improvement but does the development improve the imposition on the Cathedral by the 'ring-roady' Victoria St? I mean, an extra sward or paving on the side of the cathedral would improve the ambiance greatly. In fact perhaps the street could have been on the other side of the river?

 

[Dunc108]

I thought the main use of Exchange was as an origin for charters.

Yes, there were regular services from Manchester Exchange - Filey Holiday Camp workings and probably similar to North Wales. The Windermere and Llandudno 'Club' trains ran from Manchester Exchange.

 

[WatcherZero]

@WatcherZero
The second is clearly an architectural improvement but does the development improve the imposition on the Cathedral by the 'ring-roady' Victoria St? I mean, an extra sward or paving on the side of the cathedral would improve the ambiance greatly. In fact perhaps the street could have been on the other side of the river?

There is a strategy of pedestrianising the area around the Cathedral and integrating each side of the river. The road past the Cathedral was narrowed to that effect in 2012 and the plans include a pedestrianbridge across the Irwell between Victoria Bridge and Cathedral Approach (construction visible on Street View but not on Sattelite) along with plazas around the greengate developments.

 

[snail]

I thought it was more than a strategy, with traffic banned from Victoria Street in 2012. The footbridge was completed last summer, connecting to the new Greengate Square.

Pictures and info here: http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/outside/SALFORD/greengatesquare.html

 

[merlodlliw]

No - the platform was effectively split into three - Platform 11 at Victoria, Platform 11 Middle between Victoria & Exchange and Platform 3 at Exchange.

Scissors crossovers enabled trains to avoid the remaining parts of the platform they were not using, so you could in theory have had 3 services using the platform simultaneously, thus giving maximum operating flexibility.

Long trains, such as the Newspaper trains to the North East, straddled platforms 11 and 11 Middle, but, as far as I know, no train was booked to call at both stations.

I was involved with those newspaper trains,platform eleven was vast,the longest in the UK,I recall four newspaper trains on a Saturday evening on platform eleven,loading took place from around now 2100 onto the 2220 Holyhead passenger until the 0208 to Chester connecting with the 0218 passenger from Crewe to Llandudno Junction which carried the London Sundays. Other news trains ran to Liverpool/Shrewsbury/Crewe and the North East

 

[Welshman]

I thought the main use of Exchange was as an origin for charters.

Not only charters but regular services too.

In the 1960's, all the ex LNWR services used the station. Hence there were regular services to Chester General and North Wales, to Wigan North Western via Tyldesley and to Liverpool Lime Street via Earlestown. These used platforms 1,2 & 3 [3 being the extension of platform 11 from Victoria]. Platforms 4 & 5 were used by eastbound services to Leeds and the North East via Stalybridge & Huddersfield. In 1961, the "Trans-Pennine" dmus from Liverpool Lime St to Hull were introduced, and these also used Exchange until its closure.

Trains to/from Leeds passed through the old Manchester Victoria using the through lines between platforms 11 & 12, and in the days of steam, the eastbound trains made an impressive sound and sight, as were often double-headed, accelerating through to gain speed for the bank up to Miles Platting.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the 1960's, all the ex LNWR services used the station. Hence there were regular services to Chester General and North Wales, to Wigan North Western via Tyldesley and to Liverpool Lime Street via Earlestown. These used platforms 1,2 & 3 [3 being the extension of platform 11 from Victoria].

The services from Bolton Great Moor Street to Manchester Exchange were another short distance but frequent user of the facilities there, being a throw-back to the former days of the London and North Western Railway, who were the users of Manchester Exchange railway station.

 

[HowardGWR]

I thought it was more than a strategy, with traffic banned from Victoria Street in 2012. The footbridge was completed last summer, connecting to the new Greengate Square.

Pictures and info here: http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/outside/SALFORD/greengatesquare.html

Ah, yes, I was looking at an out of date image. Thanks to you and Watcherzero. It was an environmental no-brainer to stop up Victoria St and i think there is a lesson for other cities, Birmingham's racetracks being an example.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah, yes, I was looking at an out of date image. Thanks to you and Watcherzero. It was an environmental no-brainer to stop up Victoria St and i think there is a lesson for other cities, Birmingham's racetracks being an example.

The new footbridge looked most attractive from the front top deck seat of a Lancashire Witch X43 service that was coming into the Deansgate area near to the end of a journey from Nelson.

 

[Nym]

The site of Exchange station is where Manchesters HS2 station should be.

It's not big enough and points in the wrong directions, but otherwise OK...(!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not big enough and points in the wrong direction...(!)

Indeed so. I have looked where the proposed HS2 line comes out of the tunnel in the Longsight area (and then tried to understand the reason given by the forum member) as to how how Manchester Exchange railway station could be easily rail-accessed from there, having found it hard to understand why anyone would want to disregard the reasonably short and easy distance to the HS2 proposed Manchester Piccadilly railway station.

As ever, I am always ready to be proved wrong in my thinking.