Manchester Trams refuse to accept round £1 coins.

[swt class 450]

So Manchester Trams have recently posted on their Twitter (they have posted it at least five times) that as of Monday (7/8/2017) their machines no longer accept the old round £1 coins. This is despite the fact that they are still legal tender until 15/10/2017 (over two months away). They are even telling people that they need to make sure that they have other money on them as the old £1 coins wont be accepted. I find this absolutely appalling and probably Illegal.

This is completely incorrect advice. If someone wishes to pay using the old round £1 coins and their TVMs no longer accept it then that is 100% Manchester Trams problem and the customers will be entitled to travel for free (or pay onboard on the rare occasion that there is an RPI). I really hope that their RPIs don't illegally give out Penalty Fares for passengers who wish to use round £1 coins.

[Mod - incorrect information re: legality - see below]

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not illegal.

Any business where you pay in advance of receiving the service can accept or not accept whatever means of payment it wishes. Legal tender is irrelevant as there is no debt.

The advice you are giving is poor and will result in a PF if caught.

 

[Deerfold]

It doesn't sound very customer-friendly and I can understand why you'd complain to them (and perhaps TfGM) but as Bletchleyite says they're allowed to do so (unless there is any tram-specific legislation or anything in the contract with TfGM).

I am surprised there's nothing obvious on the website. Do you know if there's an explanation at stops?

 

[causton]

Same as TVMs not taking the new ones temporarily, or about them taking £50 notes permanently. It is their choice which payment methods they accept!

 

[Darandio]

If someone wishes to pay using the old round £1 coins and their TVMs no longer accept it then that is 100% Manchester Trams problem and the customers will be entitled to travel for free (or pay onboard on the rare occasion that there is an RPI).

Presumably with the caveat that by posting this, you will bear the responsibility for their costs when potentially prosecuted?

I can only assume you are willing to do this given you are so far off the mark.

 

[philthetube]

If it was national rail and you turned up with old pound coins and the tvm would not accept them you could travel, paying where possible, just as if only card payment was available, I hav no idea what the position on Manchester trams is though.

 

[Starmill]

It has been well advertised at Metrolink stops that these coins would soon not be accepted.

There have been some guards turning down old pound coins too, and some TransPennine RPIs at Dewsbury recently refused to accept them.

I was actually quite annoyed that the cashier in B&M gave me some old pound coins the other day after I had made an effort to spend them all!

Metrolink operate a system of Standard Fares of £100 for anyone found without a ticket (although this is reduced to £50 if you pay within 14 days). However, if you seem to have a good enough reason for not having one they may simply leave the tram with you and ask you to purchase a ticket rather than issuing you with a SF. I have no idea if only having old pound coins is a good enough reason for this though. I would not count on it.

If you are unable to purchase a ticket from the machine before boarding, you should use the help point on the platform (or call 0106 205 2000) - not just board the tram anyway. Even if all of the ticket machines are broken you do not "have an entitlement to travel for free". It is also made plain that tickets are not for sale onboard trams.

(In reality, if all of the ticket machines are broken you will likely be given authority to get on the tram anyway and you will get the single journey for free.)

 

[AlterEgo]

It has been well advertised at Metrolink stops that these coins would soon not be accepted.

There have been some guards turning down old pound coins too, and some TransPennine RPIs at Dewsbury recently refused to accept them.

I was actually quite annoyed that the cashier in B&M gave me some old pound coins the other day after I had made an effort to spend them all!

Interesting.

To clarify the point about legal tender:

"Legal tender" refers specifically to acceptable forms of money which MUST be accepted to settle a debt, in law.

Therefore, Metrolink not accepting old £1 coins at machines where payment is required in advance of availing of the service is legal, if a little unhelpful.

A guard or RPI refusing to accept the after the customer has commenced travel (and therefore by doing so has accrued a debt to the company which must be paid), is probably not legal.

 

[causton]

There is "refused", and there is "refused".

If someone offered an RPI some old £1 coins and they said they couldn't take them, then the passenger said they didn't have anything else, the RPI might be a little annoyed but I would hope they would take them as they are still in circulation!

For example, in the ticket office we don't really deal with 1p and 2p coins, but if people insist on paying with them it's either that or accrue a loss... so we take them even if we'd rather not

 

[WelshBluebird]

Regardless of the legalities, it is pretty damn poor customer service!

What is the actual real reason for them not being accepted until they are actually phased out?

I don't believe the machines can't accept both at once (as other machines including NR ticket machines are fine on that front) so the only thing I can think of is that it is penny pinching in that instead of having to make two separate changes (one now to allow the new pounds and then one in a few months time to disallow the old pounds) they have combined the changes into one.

 

[bb21]

For example, in the ticket office we don't really deal with 1p and 2p coins, but if people insist on paying with them it's either that or accrue a loss... so we take them even if we'd rather not

You may be glad when someone comes up to you and pays with an RTV ending in 3p (XC, ahem) plus cash, and you have to give change.

Regardless of the legalities, it is pretty damn poor customer service!

Of course. Still two months to go yet and plenty in circulation.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The OP might benefit from reading this explanation from the Bank of England:

"What is legal tender?"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What is the actual real reason for them not being accepted until they are actually phased out?

:roll: It's probably cost-related. As an aside, the self-service till at my local Tesco still won't take new £1 coins yet, and gives out old £1 coins in change (which then can't be used at the Metrolink TVMs!) Ho hum!

 

[AM9]

With the pound coin being so ubiquitous in vending machines it has shown just how many problems changing coin designs can create. The issue for a customer is that you have to take both versions of the coin wherever you go in case a vending machine only accepts one of them. If it is for a packet of sweets or a can of pop then it is not usually more than an incovenience, (and the vendor loses the sale), but if it is for a ticket to travel or a car parking charge, then the inability to make a purchase could create serious problems.
The customer may need to carry both types of coin, for up to the whole transition period, (28th March - 15th October in this case). Firstly they have the problem of getting both types of coin, then they have the need to exchange the old ones when they are obsolete, - currently only into a current bank account is being offered. Maybe it's time to consider an obligation on the vendor either to make machines compatible with both types or maybe establish by law a date well before the end of the transition period where the new coins will be accepted. If a machine hasn't been modified by that date and no alternative payment method is offered, then the customer should have a right to the service without prior purchase of a ticket.
Of course there would be a barrage of complaints from vendors about them needing right up to the deadline to make changes, but in most instances, the vending machine industry and businesses have known about the chage for about two years so the 'lack of time' excuse wears a bit thin. Potentially losing revenue would focus their minds a bit more on the change timescales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've not had an old one for yonks.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've not had an old one for yonks.

I've had loads of old ones. Got some yesterday.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

I don’t understand why they have to make their TVMs stop accepting them. Why can’t just all shops, stores, companies selling things just sort out the old £1 coins when someone pays with them, and send them to the Bank of England (or whoever is responsible for that) for melting. Slowly, all old coins (except for the odd one somebody wants to save) would be gone and there wouldn’t need to be this hassle about stopping accepting them.

 

[Deerfold]

I don’t understand why they have to make their TVMs stop accepting them. Why can’t just all shops, stores, companies selling things just sort out the old £1 coins when someone pays with them, and send them to the Bank of England (or whoever is responsible for that) for melting. Slowly, all old coins (except for the odd one somebody wants to save) would be gone and there wouldn’t need to be this hassle about stopping accepting them.

That's pretty much what's happening, but with a cut off date.
There has to be a cut-off date, largely due to the large number of forgeries (estimated at up to 3% off all £1 coins). If the old coins are always valid then people will continue to make them and pass them off. The new coins are much harder to forge.

After October you'll still be able to hand them in at most banks and the post office - where they'll get more scrutiny than in the average shop.

 

[northwichcat]

I've not had an old one for yonks.

I've seen nothing but old ones but then I pay for almost everything by card except for bus fares and occasionally a small purchase in a shop. In contrast after the new £5 note came out the old ones seemed to disappear almost immediately.

 

[swt class 450]

So could an RPI if they wanted to actually give out a Penalty Fare if all that a passenger had on them is round £1 coins so they boarded without a ticket? Surely that wouldn't be allowed? Say for example if this happened would the passenger win an appeal? This seems completely wrong. Whether or not legal tender is involved i don't see how a public transport company can refuse perfectly good valid money. I still get lots of old round £1 coins all the time.

 

[Josie]

So could an RPI if they wanted to actually give out a Penalty Fare if all that a passenger had on them is round £1 coins so they boarded without a ticket? Surely that wouldn't be allowed? Say for example if this happened would the passenger win an appeal? This seems completely wrong. Whether or not legal tender is involved i don't see how a public transport company can refuse perfectly good valid money. I still get lots of old round £1 coins all the time.

They could insist on all fares being paid only in 5p coins if they wanted, and if you got on the tram without buying a ticket you'd still be liable for a penalty no matter how many £1s you had on you.

Doesn't mean they SHOULD. But they CAN. They can set their own requirements for how fares will be accepted, and as far as the law is concerned if you don't like it you don't have to use the service.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's high time that we moved far more of our transactions towards contactless card anyway; then we wouldn't have this issue; nor would we have the expense and security considerations of handling tons of cash. On trams, buses, at swimming pools, car parks - the whole nine yards.

 

[Josie]

It's high time that we moved far more of our transactions towards contactless card anyway; then we wouldn't have this issue; nor would we have the expense and security considerations of handling tons of cash. On trams, buses, at swimming pools, car parks - the whole nine yards.

Metrolink accepts contactless payments for tickets, which is great (except when the contactless pad on the only machine isn't working, as happened to me this weekend!)

 

[Clip]

:roll: It's probably cost-related. As an aside, the self-service till at my local Tesco still won't take new £1 coins yet, and gives out old £1 coins in change (which then can't be used at the Metrolink TVMs!) Ho hum!

The likes of G4S/Securicor/Loomis or any of the other money collecting companies are now insisting that the coins are separated and bagged in different money bags before being collected so that they can dispose of them correctly. This obviously makes cashing up more laborious and time consuming for people at the front line to do so it makes sense that they start ending the acceptance of them as soon as posible

 

[Shell]

It's high time that we moved far more of our transactions towards contactless card anyway; then we wouldn't have this issue; nor would we have the expense and security considerations of handling tons of cash. On trams, buses, at swimming pools, car parks - the whole nine yards.

Legally mandated basic bank accounts that many depend on don't come with contactless cards. You might say that Oyster et al are an option, but with a £5 deposit per card (£25 for a family of 5!), that's difficult for some people to handle too. And then you have to pay another deposit for every city you go to.

Unless we provide a national smartcard system for free for all citizens, we're going to be stuck handling cash for a long time. And that has issues of its own.

There's also the fact that some people just prefer handling cash. Contactless is scary for me because most payments don't turn up in my bank account until days later - meaning I have to keep in mind how much money I've spent so I don't go into overdraft, so I try to only put very small irregular payments on it.

 

[Darandio]

It's high time that we moved far more of our transactions towards contactless card anyway; then we wouldn't have this issue; nor would we have the expense and security considerations of handling tons of cash. On trams, buses, at swimming pools, car parks - the whole nine yards.

And until this is an option available to everyone, it isn't really an option.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm grateful to Mike who pointed out I can check Contactless payments on TfL in real time. I prefer the ease of Contactless, but not everyone gets access to accounts that will issue contactless debit cards.

I've not had an old pound coin for ages, even my trolley token is the new shape. Though I try and get shut of old pound coins as so many of them are forgeries.

Its not brilliant customer service from Metrolink, but certainly not a way of getting a free ride.

 

[Bishopstone]

When I break into a note to get my morning coffee at the station, I've noticed they're inclined to pass me my change in 'round pounds'....which I return to them over the next couple of days for subsequent coffees.

(No card transactions below £5. Other than renting a trolley at Morrisons, this transaction is now my sole regular usage of coinage.)

 

[Camden]

Shouldn't this thread be filed away in "other public transport"?

 

[Ianno87]

When I break into a note to get my morning coffee at the station, I've noticed they're inclined to pass me my change in 'round pounds'....which I return to them over the next couple of days for subsequent coffees

...hopefully not getting the very same ones back as change when you break your next note the next day?