Manchester Victoria Refurbishment

[Dunc108]

And, getting back on topic, is it true theyre refurbishing the former 1st class waiting room on Vic's concourse? I can't remember if it actually has one! The Dome Buffet looks like it almost doubles up as one at times! and what of the higher realms of the facade itself? offices? hotel? I appreciate Northern must inhabit some of it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure that if we look hard enough in Britain and on the continent, we will find some examples of iconic historic railway stations that have had a sympathetic upgrading for use in the 21st century whilst retaining much of their former glory.

 

[lancastrian]

However, as Manchester Victoria is the theme of this thread, will the now-existing trackwork diagrams that so apply from Salford Crescent through Salford Central into Manchester Victoria be deemed still to be suitable to carry the expected traffic increase that could apply in future years.

How did they come to that conclusion, the used to be at least four tracks from Windsor Bridge Junction through to Victoria, with four platforms at Salford Central. How on earth do they expect just two tracks and platforms to handle any increase of traffic on this section of railway. Plus there are only Four through platforms at Victoria now.

Yes I know that it is intended for services to run through and turn round at either Stalybridge or Rochdale. I am sure that someday soon they will need to rebuild at least one west facing bay for Victoria. Fro memory I am sure that there is space just to the west of Victoria, for at least five bay platforms, if that many where needed, on the site of the old Exchange Station.

Plus although diverting the Liverpool lines through the currently unused platforms at Salford Central, perhaps the best approach would be to build the two platforms directly on the Liverpool Line tracks, rather than having to move them when the four tracks between Victoria and Windsor Bridge Junction are reinstated.

Drops stone into water and awaits the ripple effect.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I have noticed a few excavations alongside the line into Victoria when travelling in from the Eccles side. They are taped off with blue netting and look to be about a foot to eighteen inches deep and can be several feet across. Anyone any idea what these are for?
Also, I did read that the current plan is for two trains an hour from Chester to Victoria once the Northern Hub is up and running. Can anyone confirm this? Great for me but on the ATW trains in the peak a lot of the traffic is to Oxford Road!

 

[DJH1971]

I have noticed a few excavations alongside the line into Victoria when travelling in from the Eccles side. They are taped off with blue netting and look to be about a foot to eighteen inches deep and can be several feet across. Anyone any idea what these are for?
Also, I did read that the current plan is for two trains an hour from Chester to Victoria once the Northern Hub is up and running. Can anyone confirm this? Great for me but on the ATW trains in the peak a lot of the traffic is to Oxford Road!

I noticed them on Saturday morning whilst travelling into Victoria.

 

[Dunc108]

I have noticed a few excavations alongside the line into Victoria when travelling in from the Eccles side. They are taped off with blue netting and look to be about a foot to eighteen inches deep and can be several feet across. Anyone any idea what these are for?
Also, I did read that the current plan is for two trains an hour from Chester to Victoria once the Northern Hub is up and running. Can anyone confirm this? Great for me but on the ATW trains in the peak a lot of the traffic is to Oxford Road!

I've read OHLE is to be assembled at Victoria around Xmas, whether the excavations are in relation to this or the Ordsall Curve I have no idea! I'd say another through platform would be more beneficial through Victoria, providing 5 through platforms, whether it might involve MEN Arena alterations would have to be determined...

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I've read OHLE is to be assembled at Victoria around Xmas, whether its in relation to this or the Ordsall Curve I have no idea! I'd say another through platform would be more beneficial through Victoria, providing 5 through platforms, whether it might involve MEN Arena alterations would have to be determined...

The excavations seem a bit shallow for OHLE bases but of course they could just be partial excavations.
I quite agree with the extra platform. Its great that Victoria is getting a good upgrade.

 

[Dunc108]

The excavations seem a bit shallow for OHLE bases but of course they could just be partial excavations.
I quite agree with the extra platform. Its great that Victoria is getting a good upgrade.

Yes, Victoria will look a damn site better with the new roof up, hopefully up in time for the return of North Transpennine services next May!

 

[D6975]

Maybe Network Rail are missing a trick and should start getting sponsors for stations.

How about "Salford Halfords" ?

Already being done, sort of, but not by changing the station names.
Numerous stations in Cornwall have adverts for local firms on the bottom of the station nameboards. I'm sure someone living down that way could furnish us with an example.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Already being done, sort of. Numerous stations in Cornwall have adverts for local firms on the bottom of the station nameboards. I'm sure someone living down that way could furnish us with an example.

You do not need to go that far south as my wife will so attest, as a visit to Heald Green station will show the station name boards affixed to their holding staunchions, then underneath them on exactly the same size of board, in similar style, an exhortation to visit the wonderment that is Wythenshawe.

I have a feeling that St Modwen, who developed the latest part of the market area there in Wythenshawe, had approached Northern Rail on this matter, which led to the status quo being to the annoyance of the local shopkeepers in Heald Green.

 

[OxtedL]

Already being done, sort of, but not by changing the station names.
Numerous stations in Cornwall have adverts for local firms on the bottom of the station nameboards. I'm sure someone living down that way could furnish us with an example.

In Southern territory, I seem to recall:

Barnham, home of the University of Chichester
Chichester, home of the University of Chichester
Havant, home of the University of Chichester.

Can confuse.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....However, as Manchester Victoria is the theme of this thread, will the now-existing trackwork diagrams that so apply from Salford Crescent through Salford Central into Manchester Victoria be deemed still to be suitable to carry the expected traffic increase that could apply in future years.

How did they come to that conclusion, the used to be at least four tracks from Windsor Bridge Junction through to Victoria, with four platforms at Salford Central. How on earth do they expect just two tracks and platforms to handle any increase of traffic on this section of railway....

Maybe I fell asleep at some point, but, what increase in traffic? In any case, the pinch point for that particular line is not Salford Central or even Victoria, but Salford Crescent.

....Plus although diverting the Liverpool lines through the currently unused platforms at Salford Central, perhaps the best approach would be to build the two platforms directly on the Liverpool Line tracks, rather than having to move them when the four tracks between Victoria and Windsor Bridge Junction are reinstated.....

It's one thing to get the tracks and platforms aligned, it's another to get disabled passengers to them. Effectively, one of the two existing disused platforms already has good disabled access.

 

[Dunc108]

Maybe I fell asleep at some point, but, what increase in traffic? In any case, the pinch point for that particular line is not Salford Central or even Victoria, but Salford Crescent.



It's one thing to get the tracks and platforms aligned, it's another to get disabled passengers to them. Effectively, one of the two existing disused platforms already has good disabled access.

The return of North Transpennine services next May - thats an increase in traffic, that should be relatively easy being an hourly service in the short term but when the Ordsall Curve opens & most Transpennine traffic comes through Victoria not to mention new electric services from Liverpool with increased frequencies youre looking at a very busy piece of railway through both Salford Central & Manchester Victoria, maybe it's not unwise to proactively plan for what's coming... Couple these changes with existing 6tph from various destinations from the Bolton & Wigan lines aswell & the prospect of extra capacity at Salford aswell as Victoria isn't such a bad idea ...

 

[Darren R]

The return of North Transpennine services next May - thats an increase in traffic, that should be relatively easy being an hourly service in the short term but when the Ordsall Curve opens & most Transpennine traffic comes through Victoria not to mention new electric services from Liverpool with increased frequencies youre looking at a very busy piece of railway through both Salford Central & Manchester Victoria, maybe it's not unwise to proactively plan for what's coming... Couple these changes with existing 6tph from various destinations from the Bolton & Wigan lines aswell & the prospect of extra capacity at Salford aswell as Victoria isn't such a bad idea ...

But the Chat Moss Lines are seperate from Victoria and go behind the platforms at Salford, they have no bearing on the capacity of the two track section through the Vic - Salford Crescent corridor. Headways for trains calling at Salford Central are only three minutes: quadrupling just isn't nescessary. And in any case, as hairyhandedfool says, the pinchpoint is further west at Crescent (and beyond.) Being able to run extra trains from Vic to Crescent isn't much use if they'd all end up queuing up to enter the double track section between Crescent and Bolton.

The capacity issues in the area are the lack of platforms at Victoria itself: this will be addressed by running trains through to Stalybridge or Rochdale.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The return of North Transpennine services next May - thats an increase in traffic, that should be relatively easy being an hourly service in the short term....

Oh I see, are they not going to go to the Airport anymore then?

....but when the Ordsall Curve opens & most Transpennine traffic comes through Victoria not to mention new electric services from Liverpool with increased frequencies youre looking at a very busy piece of railway through both Salford Central & Manchester Victoria, maybe it's not unwise to proactively plan for what's coming... Couple these changes with existing 6tph from various destinations from the Bolton & Wigan lines aswell & the prospect of extra capacity at Salford aswell as Victoria isn't such a bad idea ...

Except that the Ordsall Curve is at Ordsall Lane (between Castlefield Junction and Deal Street Junction to avoid Ordsall Lane Junction) which is the Chat Moss route, not the Salford route. The line from Ordsall Lane to Victoria currently has 2tph (each way) in the peak period, both Liverpool stoppers.

 

[DJH1971]

Oh I see, are they not going to go to the Airport anymore then?



Except that the Ordsall Curve is at Ordsall Lane (between Castlefield Junction and Deal Street Junction to avoid Ordsall Lane Junction) which is the Chat Moss route, not the Salford route. The line from Ordsall Lane to Victoria currently has 2tph (each way) in the peak period, both Liverpool stoppers.

And will the new TPE service be calling at St Helens Junction?

 

[Dunc108]

But the Chat Moss Lines are seperate from Victoria and go behind the platforms at Salford, they have no bearing on the capacity of the two track section through the Vic - Salford Crescent corridor. Headways for trains calling at Salford Central are only three minutes: quadrupling just isn't nescessary. And in any case, as hairyhandedfool says, the pinchpoint is further west at Crescent (and beyond.) Being able to run extra trains from Vic to Crescent isn't much use if they'd all end up queuing up to enter the double track section between Crescent and Bolton.

The capacity issues in the area are the lack of platforms at Victoria itself: this will be addressed by running trains through to Stalybridge or Rochdale.

I wasn't suggesting quadrupling merely that existing lines be slewed into Salford Central's disused platforms based off much needed & very obvious potential capacity boost. Existing station avoiding lines could be put to other uses like EMU stabling for the forthcoming electrification & whilst there will be alot of through services, there will I imagine be the occasional terminator, extra platforms at Rochdale & Stalybridge, while essential can only do so much...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh I see, are they not going to go to the Airport anymore then?



Except that the Ordsall Curve is at Ordsall Lane (between Castlefield Junction and Deal Street Junction to avoid Ordsall Lane Junction) which is the Chat Moss route, not the Salford route. The line from Ordsall Lane to Victoria currently has 2tph (each way) in the peak period, both Liverpool stoppers.

As far as I'm aware, the TPE via Victoria is a totally brand new service & nothing to do with the existing Airport service.

 

[snail]

I wasn't suggesting quadrupling merely that existing lines be slewed into Salford Central's disused platforms based off much needed & very obvious potential capacity boost. Existing station avoiding lines could be put to other uses like EMU stabling for the forthcoming electrification & whilst there will be alot of through services, there will I imagine be the occasional terminator, extra platforms at Rochdale & Stalybridge, while essential can only do so much...

Or you could do what is proposed in the Northern Hub plans which is to put two of the Chat Moss lines through the disused platforms,
have one of the existing lines use the remaining platform edge, leaving the remaining track bed as an access road.

I'm not sure how you are going to utilise Salford Central as an alternative to Rochdale and Stalybridge as they are in opposite directions. Victoria already has two east-facing bay platforms.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As far as I'm aware, the TPE via Victoria is a totally brand new service & nothing to do with the existing Airport service.

It has been said on quite a number of postings on threads that the Newcastle to Manchester Airport First TPE service was being replaced by the Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street service.

 

[Dunc108]

I was thinking of the Liverpool - Airport Northern service not being affected. I wasnt thinking of the other TPE services so I must have got my wires crossed! Lol I still take it the Liverpool - Scarborough TPE will be unchanged?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

And will the new TPE service be calling at St Helens Junction?

I wasn't suggesting quadrupling merely that existing lines be slewed into Salford Central's disused platforms based off much needed & very obvious potential capacity boost. Existing station avoiding lines could be put to other uses like EMU stabling for the forthcoming electrification & whilst there will be alot of through services, there will I imagine be the occasional terminator, extra platforms at Rochdale & Stalybridge, while essential can only do so much...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As far as I'm aware, the TPE via Victoria is a totally brand new service & nothing to do with the existing Airport service.

It has been said on quite a number of postings on threads that the Newcastle to Manchester Airport First TPE service was being replaced by the Newcastle to Liverpool Lime Street service.

I was thinking of the Liverpool - Airport Northern service not being affected. I wasnt thinking of the other TPE services so I must have got my wires crossed! Lol I still take it the Liverpool - Scarborough TPE will be unchanged?

From next May the core pattern of TPE services will be:

Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough
Manchester Airport - York
Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (via Warrington & Manchester Piccadilly)
Liverpool Lime Street - Newcastle (via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria)
Manchester Piccadilly - Hull.

Most of the existing services will be re timed and stopping patterns altered. For example I believe the Airport - York won't stop at Dewsbury but the Liverpool - Scarborough will. The last information I saw was that the Liverpool - Newcastle stopping pattern would be Liverpool, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York then stations to Newcastle as now.

 

[Dunc108]

From next May the core pattern of TPE services will be:

Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough
Manchester Airport - York
Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (via Warrington & Manchester Piccadilly)
Liverpool Lime Street - Newcastle (via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria)
Manchester Piccadilly - Hull.

Most of the existing services will be re timed and stopping patterns altered. For example I believe the Airport - York won't stop at Dewsbury but the Liverpool - Scarborough will. The last information I saw was that the Liverpool - Newcastle stopping pattern would be Liverpool, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York then stations to Newcastle as now.

So with the 3 trains p/h via Calder Valley as now they'll be 4 trains p/h from next May with the new service between Manchester Victoria - Leeds. The Newcastle TPE will relink Manchester Victoria with York whose direct Caldervale - York services were curtailed at Leeds a few years back.

 

[DJH1971]

From next May the core pattern of TPE services will be:

Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough
Manchester Airport - York
Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (via Warrington & Manchester Piccadilly)
Liverpool Lime Street - Newcastle (via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria)
Manchester Piccadilly - Hull.

Most of the existing services will be re timed and stopping patterns altered. For example I believe the Airport - York won't stop at Dewsbury but the Liverpool - Scarborough will. The last information I saw was that the Liverpool - Newcastle stopping pattern would be Liverpool, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York then stations to Newcastle as now.

Just hoping there will be at least 2tph to Manchester from St Helens Junction.


Currently, there is one to Victoria stopping at all stations, and also the limited stop service to Manchester Airport via Piccadilly every hour.

 

[Dunc108]

Just hoping there will be at least 2tph to Manchester from St Helens Junction.


Currently, there is one to Victoria stopping at all stations, and also the limited stop service to Manchester Airport via Piccadilly every hour.

Going off what I've read, they'll be 2 trains p/h Liverpool - Manchester Vic, the stopping service & the new TPE which will very likely be a semi-fast. The existing stopping service will I assume go EMU operated when the wires go up at Vic. The Liverpool - Airport will also I assume go over to EMU operation at some point, there should be at least 3 trains p/h between Lime St - Manchester via Chat Moss from next May.

Actually, Earlestown will have 4 trains p/h into Manchester if you factor in the North Wales services.

 

[DJH1971]

Going off what I've read, they'll be 2 trains p/h Liverpool - Manchester Vic, the stopping service & the new TPE which will very likely be a semi-fast. The existing stopping service will I assume go EMU operated when the wires go up at Vic. The Liverpool - Airport will also I assume go over to EMU operation at some point, there should be at least 3 trains p/h between Lime St - Manchester via Chat Moss from next May.

Actually, Earlestown will have 4 trains p/h into Manchester as the Airport service will be joined by the North Wales services.

But would the new semi-fast be calling at St Helens Junction?

If not, St Helens Junction to any of the two Manchester stations will go down to 1tph.

Makes sense for the new semi-fast to call at St Helens.

 

[Dunc108]

But would the new semi-fast be calling at St Helens Junction?

If not, St Helens Junction to any of the two Manchester stations will go down to 1tph.

Makes sense for the new semi-fast to call at St Helens.

Colour me surprised if it didn't but you'd still have the Man Vic stopper & the Airport semi-fast aswell, thats still 2 trains to both Manchester stations as it is now. I'm not officially sure where it'll stop between Liverpool & Man Vic at the moment, but I know, it would be nice to have 2 semi-fasts!

 

[DJH1971]

Colour me surprised if it didn't but you'd still have the Man Vic stopper & the Airport semi-fast aswell, thats still 2 trains to both Manchester stations as it is now. I'm not officially sure where it'll stop between Liverpool & Man Vic at the moment, but I know, it would be nice to have 2 semi-fasts!

Thought the semi-fast service to the airport was going to now run on the CLC line?

 

[Dunc108]

Thought the semi-fast service to the airport was going to now run on the CLC line?

I'm not officially sure on that one. The Airport service did run via Warrington originally. Even if it did, then there's a good chance the new TPE semi-fast will stop at St Helens Junction.

 

[DJH1971]

I'm not officially sure on that one. The Airport service did run via Warrington originally. Even if it did, then there's a good chance the new TPE semi-fast will stop at St Helens Junction.

It would make sense if they did stop here. In the past, semi-fast services running east of Manchester via Chat Moss did call at St Helens Junction, whilst TPE services on the CLC line do stop at Warrington Central (and Widnes).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would make sense if they did stop here. In the past, semi-fast services running east of Manchester via Chat Moss did call at St Helens Junction, whilst TPE services on the CLC line do stop at Warrington Central (and Widnes).

The CLC Transpennine service serves Birchwood rather than Widnes. EMT's Liverpool-Norwich serves Widnes though.