Many questions - now with buckeye coupler questions

[Rhydgaled]

Just a few little somthings I'd like to know. How much would it cost to:

• Buy 3 mrk3 Buffet 1st coaches
• Buy the 6 remaining un-used mrk2 DBSOs
• Buy 15 mrk2 TSOs (of whichever version of mrk2 the DBSOs are, mrk2f I think)
• Fit up 6 class 47s or 57s for 100mph and with TDM to work with the DBSOs (basicly a class 57 equivelent of the class 47/7) and purchase these.

Also, how much would it cost per year (and per vehicle, so I can work out the costs for a smaller fleet) to lease that lot if you didn't buy them? Also, how many coaches are currently in WAG express livery (and how many spares would be needed)?



The above is intended to provide the following:

• Two WAG express sets (in service) consiting of a 57/7, a mrk3 buffet 1st, 2 mrk2 TSOs and a DBSO
• Three (in service) sets of 57/7 + 3x mrk2 TSO + DBSO
• 1 spare class 57/7
• 1 spare mrk3 buffet 1st
• 1 spare mrk2 DBSO
• 2 spare mrk2 TSOs

Also, I'd be interested to know if there's any routes where 2 or more 158s are coupled together for the entire service (ie. not spliting like the Cambrian line services do at Machylleth) without any reversals on route.

Additional questions added, see later pages.

 

[route:oxford]

The above is intended to provide the following:

• Two WAG express sets (in service) consiting of a 57/7, a mrk3 buffet 1st, 2 mrk2 TSOs and a DBSO
• Three (in service) sets of 57/7 + 3x mrk2 TSO + DBSO
• 1 spare class 57/7
• 1 spare mrk3 buffet 1st
• 1 spare mrk2 DBSO
• 2 spare mrk2 TSOs

In all honesty, if you've got the money to start the venture - you'd be better off picking up the phone to Siemens, Alstom, Staedler or similar and asking them to quote for a new-build.

 

[MCR247]

I think he was just asking about the WAG express costings.....

But I think Arriva already owns the WAG mark 2s if thats what you mean...

 

[GNERman]

But I think Arriva already owns the WAG mark 2s if thats what you mean...

Yeah aren't they ex S&C and Welsh Valleys stock just repainted? The buffet is Cargo-D leased...

 

[4SRKT]

Just a few little somthings I'd like to know. How much would it cost to:

• Buy 3 mrk3 Buffet 1st coaches
• Buy the 6 remaining un-used mrk2 DBSOs
• Buy 15 mrk2 TSOs (of whichever version of mrk2 the DBSOs are, mrk2f I think)
• Fit up 6 class 47s or 57s for 100mph and with TDM to work with the DBSOs (basicly a class 57 equivelent of the class 47/7) and purchase these.

Also, how much would it cost per year (and per vehicle, so I can work out the costs for a smaller fleet) to lease that lot if you didn't buy them? Also, how many coaches are currently in WAG express livery (and how many spares would be needed)?

The above is intended to provide the following:

• Two WAG express sets (in service) consiting of a 57/7, a mrk3 buffet 1st, 2 mrk2 TSOs and a DBSO
• Three (in service) sets of 57/7 + 3x mrk2 TSO + DBSO
• 1 spare class 57/7
• 1 spare mrk3 buffet 1st
• 1 spare mrk2 DBSO
• 2 spare mrk2 TSOs

Also, I'd be interested to know if there's any routes where 2 or more 158s are coupled together for the entire service (ie. not spliting like the Cambrian line services do at Machylleth) without any reversals on route.

The 10:49 Leeds > Carlisle and whatever it comes back as is a 4-car 158 throughout.

 

[scotsman]

1335 EDB-INV is 2x158

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe the OP is more interested in which ATW diagrams are doubled up 158s throughout their duration, rather than countrywide. And it's more than a question of how much Gerald costs to lease and run, it's looking at the idea of freeing up a few ATW 158s for use elsewhere in Wales and trying to find out how much more expensive a replacement loco hauled service in place of these 158 diagrams would be.

Unfortunately, I do not know the leasing costs of any items of rolling stock, only the track access charges, and similarly, I do not know the specifics of the ATW 158 diagrams. Though surely the Birmingham to Cambrian line and North Wales coast service must make use of a good few units.

Perhaps, Rhydgaled, it might be worth considering using these (hypothetical) loco hauled rakes to replace 175s on the Manchester to north wales coast trains? Using loco hauled formations in place of some of the three car 175 diagrams would allow a few 3 car 175s to replace some two carriage 175s, which could then be doubled up into four carriage trains (staffing costs permitting, as the 175s have no corridor connections, unlike the 158s)

 

[Rhydgaled]

I believe the OP is more interested in which ATW diagrams are doubled up 158s throughout their duration, rather than countrywide. And it's more than a question of how much Gerald costs to lease and run, it's looking at the idea of freeing up a few ATW 158s for use elsewhere in Wales and trying to find out how much more expensive a replacement loco hauled service in place of these 158 diagrams would be.

Unfortunately, I do not know the leasing costs of any items of rolling stock, only the track access charges, and similarly, I do not know the specifics of the ATW 158 diagrams. Though surely the Birmingham to Cambrian line and North Wales coast service must make use of a good few units.

Perhaps, Rhydgaled, it might be worth considering using these (hypothetical) loco hauled rakes to replace 175s on the Manchester to north wales coast trains? Using loco hauled formations in place of some of the three car 175 diagrams would allow a few 3 car 175s to replace some two carriage 175s, which could then be doubled up into four carriage trains (staffing costs permitting, as the 175s have no corridor connections, unlike the 158s)

Countrywide is alright actually, it's kind of an alternative to using the DBSOs (as without doubling 175s, as you say, you can't really find a good option within Wales), as in such a suituation the loco would only need to run round at the ends of the service and a DBSO wouldn't really be needed. I should probablly have been more specific though, as the 158s would probablly need to be so coupled all day, not just a single service. I wonder though, if you can replace 3-car 175 Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead trains with a loco-hauled set, could you run round alright at both ends? and could a a 3-car 175 be used to replace a 4-car 158 (as the one I caught from Conwy to Shrewsbury once didn't really seem to need all 4 coaches)?

 

[sprinterguy]

These days run round loops are far too sparse to be convenient for loco hauled trains: There is a run round loop at Holyhead, used by 57s on the Pendolino drags as well as by Gerald, but at Llandudno, a crossover would have to be reinstalled I think. And lets not get started on the idea of run rounds or loco changes at Manchester Piccadilly...DBSOs are definitely the way to go.

I tell you what though, I'm all up for getting top and tail 37s and coaching stock back on the S&C! As mediocre as I found the Arriva Trains Northern franchise, they came up trumps with that idea!

 

[route:oxford]

These days run round loops are far too sparse to be convenient for loco hauled trains: There is a run round loop at Holyhead, used by 57s on the Pendolino drags as well as by Gerald, but at Llandudno, a crossover would have to be reinstalled I think. And lets not get started on the idea of run rounds or loco changes at Manchester Piccadilly...DBSOs are definitely the way to go.

I tell you what though, I'm all up for getting top and tail 37s and coaching stock back on the S&C! As mediocre as I found the Arriva Trains Northern franchise, they came up trumps with that idea!

Could a 37 operate with a DBSO (with or without rewiring)?

DB have a few 37s up for sale.

They also have about forty 56s which I suppose would be a big enough batch to be rebuilt as "Zombies".

 

[sprinterguy]

Could a 37 operate with a DBSO (with or without rewiring)?

DB have a few 37s up for sale.

They also have about forty 56s which I suppose would be a big enough batch to be rebuilt as "Zombies".

Rewiring of the coaches would be needed to allow a 37 to theoretically work with a DBSO. There's also other considerations, such as fitting remote control fire extinguishers to the loco. Seeing as some of the mark 2 carriages used in the WAG Express are former Arriva Trains Northern carriages from the S&C 37 operation, they are still through wired for blue star multiple working.

 

[Rhydgaled]

So, nobody has any idea of costs yet? Also how many mrk2s do Arriva have then?

 

[fgwrich]

Or we could go back to good old 47/7s with TDM + MK2s + DBSO

 

[sprinterguy]

Or we could go back to good old 47/7s with TDM + MK2s + DBSO

Gets a thumbs up from me! I was thinking about the old Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pull operation whilst reading through this thread
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also how many mrk2s do Arriva have then?

Providing nothing has changed in the last couple of months then ATW have:
13 mk2 TSOs
3 mk2 BSOs

Not all used in service, I think some are stored at Long Marston. They are actually owned by Arriva, as opposed to being leased.

 

[route:oxford]

Gets a thumbs up from me! I was thinking about the old Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pull operation whilst reading through this thread

Which version of push-pull?

47+DBSO or 27/1+27/2

I suspect if either of those had been in operation over the last 10 days, then there would be a fairly robust service available between Edinburgh & Glasgow.

 

[fgwrich]

Gets a thumbs up from me! I was thinking about the old Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pull operation whilst reading through this thread

Same here! Hence the suggestion...

Well, the DBSO's are still around, albiet 6 are stored in eastleigh, whilst NIR always have a certain brand new/Never Used MK2 DBSO over there...Just repainted, 0 modification....Oh and stored already!

Theres enough Mk2s around, again enough stored in eastleigh...

Just the 47/7s bring the slight problem:

47701 - Preserved by Tracey Lear, but un-used, was up for sale for quite some time but isnt again...Useable
702 - scrapped
703 - Up for sale, or not? by Harry Needle Railroad Co...Useable
704 - gone
705 - Now a VT 57 - DOH! :roll:
706 - gone
707 - gone
708 - gone
709 - Stored by DRS in Eastleigh - Stored after DRS 'changed minds' during an overhaul...put it back together - useable
710 - gone
711 - gone
712 - DRS - Useable
713 - gone
714 - HNRC, Stored useable in Ashfordby / Old Dalby - Would require an overhaul though...Up for Sale? Not for sale, HNRC seem to change there mind several times over about poor old 47714
715 - Preserved, Owned by HNRC or not - not sure? But its a runner on the Wensleydale railway
716 - gone
717 - gone

So that's 6 remaining ex Scotrail 47/7s - And Youre after 6 Push Pull fitted locos...Otherwise, better get preserving one fast! 47/7 in Scotrail Livery, rake of Mk2s & DBSO all back in Scotrail Livery!!!

So its a sad ending for the ex scotrail push pull 47/7s...And as long as the DBSO's are still around, a rather usfull loco...

 

[sprinterguy]

Which version of push-pull?

47+DBSO or 27/1+27/2

I suspect if either of those had been in operation over the last 10 days, then there would be a fairly robust service available between Edinburgh & Glasgow.

I wouldn't be so sure with the class 27 combo: The Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pull 27s were notoriously unreliable. Give them the depth of snow that the central belt's been dealing with for the last fortnight and I don't think they'd be doing much better than the unfortunate Turbostars. Although they would probably fail considerably more spectacularly by catching fire or something similarly theatrical.

However I'd wager that the 47/7 rakes would have been performing better than what we've seen recently with modern DMUs.

 

[Rhydgaled]

So its a sad ending for the ex scotrail push pull 47/7s...And as long as the DBSO's are still around, a rather usfull loco...

I don't think the 47/7s can still work with the DBSOs now anyway, was told on another fourm that 86/87/90/91 use a different type of TDM which the DBSOs were converted to use instead. So you might as well fit TDM to 57s or some other 47s (probablly need to re-engine them too to life extend them, hence they'd then be 57s (apart from the engine, what's the difference between a 57 and 47 anyway?)).

 

[sprinterguy]

(apart from the engine, what's the difference between a 57 and 47 anyway?)).

An alternator instead of a generator, bodywork modifications and, in the case of the passenger 57s, the head, marker and tail lights.

 

[Rhydgaled]

An alternator instead of a generator, bodywork modifications and, in the case of the passenger 57s, the head, marker and tail lights.

Providing nothing has changed in the last couple of months then ATW have:
13 mk2 TSOs
3 mk2 BSOs

Not all used in service, I think some are stored at Long Marston. They are actually owned by Arriva, as opposed to being leased.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like there's enough mrk2 coaches at our disposal here in Wales, although some are BSOs not TSOs which will reduce capacity a little. Do ATW own the 4 57s too? Either way, I still need to know the costs for fitting those 4 57s with TDM and obtaining two more and the DBSOs before I can send my suggestion to the WAG.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like there's enough mrk2 coaches at our disposal here in Wales, although some are BSOs not TSOs which will reduce capacity a little. Do ATW own the 4 57s too? Either way, I still need to know the costs for fitting those 4 57s with TDM and obtaining two more and the DBSOs before I can send my suggestion to the WAG.

No, the 57s are leased from Porterbrook. Or possibly hired from Virgin who pay the leasing costs to Porterbrook themselves. I'm not sure. With BSOs, at least there'll be plenty of luggage space in the formation

 

[fgwrich]

Thanks for the info. Sounds like there's enough mrk2 coaches at our disposal here in Wales, although some are BSOs not TSOs which will reduce capacity a little. Do ATW own the 4 57s too? Either way, I still need to know the costs for fitting those 4 57s with TDM and obtaining two more and the DBSOs before I can send my suggestion to the WAG.

No - The ATW 57s are subleased from Virgin Trains...

As for the Mk2s - Enough Mk2 TSO Air Cons in store in Eastleigh - All of them are ex Virgin West Coast & Virgin Cross Country Mk2s in pretty good condition...very simular to the before condition of the ex Arriva Trains Northern Mk2s before repaint & refresh into ATW...

And of course the Mk2 DBSO would provide as many seats as a BSO - Same coach, bar the modification by BR Scotrail to build the cab...

Also - Not sure how many Mk3 rfm's are left in store, but there's always the Mk2 RFB's of which theres a few around in store...

RFB
http://www.rollingstock.fotopic.net/c1573173.html
DBSO
http://www.rollingstock.fotopic.net/c1573182_1.html

Anyway, ill send send you a message later...

 

[sprinterguy]

No - The ATW 57s are subleased from Virgin Trains...

No, the 57s are leased from Porterbrook. Or possibly hired from Virgin who pay the leasing costs to Porterbrook themselves.

The second bit then. Cheers fgwrich for the info.

 

[fgwrich]

The second bit then. Cheers fgwrich for the info.

Ah - I think were both right here - The ATW Hired 57s are Subleased from Virgin, who i turn - i think - lease them from Poterbrook - Ill find this out later.

As for the TDM in the DBSOs then, couldnt they be modified back to operate with 47/7s? Rather than installing a brand new TDM system in other locos, even more so when installing it in say the sub-leased 57s...

Thinking more on a cost basis here...Would Costs go up when installing a new system, as apposed to refurbishing the current?

 

[sprinterguy]

Ah - I think were both right here - The ATW Hired 57s are Subleased from Virgin, who i turn - i think - lease them from Poterbrook - Ill find this out later.

Yeah I'm in agreement with your post, especially as my knowledge of the arrangement with the Arriva 57s is sketchy anyway.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As for the TDM in the DBSOs then, couldnt they be modified back to operate with 47/7s? Rather than installing a brand new TDM system in other locos, even more so when installing it in say the sub-leased 57s...

Thinking more on a cost basis here...Would Costs go up when installing a new system, as apposed to refurbishing the current?

Well, nobody's come up with any idea of any costs at all yet, let alone the difference in costs between different options of achiving the objective. While you might be able to modify the DBSOs back to their orriginal configuration (I've no idea how the system works) I think the 47s would probablly need life-extending anyway, which might mean you need a new TDM system to go with the new engine anyway. Also, having a diesel locomotive fleet with the class 91/87/90 version TDM would be more useful, as you could also use them with mrk3 and mrk4 DVTs (my personal feelings are that an additional fleet of my hypothetical class 57/7s would be used to allow IC225 sets to operate beoynd the wires on Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock and Aberdeen/Inverness services, by swapping the 91 for a 57/7 at Swansea/Edinbourgh).

Is the many company leasing arrangement a contributing factor of the WAG express' rather large subsidy (1st class generally is supposed to make money), with Virgin making a profit on the lease the ROSCO charge? WAG would probablly be better off buying the locos (maybe the stock too) outright if the service is going to run for many years (which I hope it will, unlike the air link - cancel that now please and save the money).

 

[RobShipway]

Rhydgaled - rather than going to the cost of buying the Class 57' locos, DBSO etc.... would you not be better in maybe having a brand new train? Say a five car version of the Turbostar or if 125mph is required on some parts of the route a newer version of the Voyager/Meridian trains?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Rhydgaled - rather than going to the cost of buying the Class 57' locos, DBSO etc.... would you not be better in maybe having a brand new train? Say a five car version of the Turbostar or if 125mph is required on some parts of the route a newer version of the Voyager/Meridian trains?

Because I'd expect such a small fleet of new units to be more expensive than using existing locomotives (albeit with major referbishment) and coaches. Also there's the princable of recycling, metal supplies are finite, much better in my opinion to re-use at least the body shell (I doubt you could use the body shell of INTERCITY 125 class 43s to make a fleet of electric locos, but I'd be asking for that if I thought it was do-able).

Also, in my opinion, most modern units look very un-attractive. I much perfer older stuff (INTERCITY 125/225, 5-WES, the current Eurostar stock (is it class 373??) 3-CIG (and similar), various LHCS (mainly 47s, 37s and 57s) and class 158/159s for me - mostly BREL products). The Javelins (class 395 I think) (if they had neater sliding plug doors) and the Electrostars like the class 377 (the ones that have sliding plug doors and end gangways) are pretty much the only exceptions. The Pendos/Voyagers/Meridians are borderline, but I'd be against any more Voyagers/Meridians because their fuel ecconomy is terrible compared to INTERCITY 125s - not very green. Pendos are no better at reducing C02 than IC225s either, even though Pendos have regenerative breaking and I think IC225s don't. Anyway, I'm getting off my own topic there, please if you've any idea how much what I'm asking for would cost, let me know.

 

[RobShipway]

This is just a guess, but you are probably talking about £500,000 - £1 Miilion per carriage of work to be done as they would have to be disabled accessible i.e be able to get a wheel chair onboard with a disabled accessible toilet as well but still be up to the current safety standards set out.

Then you have the cost of potentially re - engineering a class 47 to be a class 57 which that in itself I belive would cost you anything up to about £3 Million per engine.

When you add up the cost of the above, you are looking at a lot of money for something that will probably only last 5 - 10 years at most. I don't wish to put your idea, I think it is great but I think more thought needs to be put into the idea when for the same cost you could potentially get a new train that would last the best part of 30 - 40 years.

I know you will not like this, but you might actually be better with using Class 166 when they come off lease from FGW when it is electrified.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is the many company leasing arrangement a contributing factor of the WAG express' rather large subsidy (1st class generally is supposed to make money), with Virgin making a profit on the lease the ROSCO charge? WAG would probablly be better off buying the locos (maybe the stock too) outright if the service is going to run for many years . . . .

This is, of course, the exact opposite of the move which Grand Central made. They bought old stock, refurbished it, ran if for a year or so and then sold them on a lease-back basis.

In fact, one good way of investing in mainline rolling stock is to buy shares in the leasing companies (ie banks). While not sounding remotely exciting, it does allow the risks of your investment to be spread over all other investors and ensures that there IS enough money available to buy & maintain as much stock as will be required to fulfill TOCs operational requirements.