Mark 2 railway coaches question.

[PaxmanValenta]

I've always wondered why the air conditioned Mark 2D, E and F were not designated Mark 3 and the present Mark 3 HST and loco hauled designated Mark 4 and so on.

The reason is that Mark 2 D, E and F are almost completely different from the earlier Mark 2 stock, in terms of technology and interior layout.

Also why did they not design a proper mark 2 buffet car because old Mark 1 buffets were still often used in Mark 2 sets almost to the early 2000s.

 

[fowler9]

I've always wondered why the air conditioned Mark 2D, E and F were not designated Mark 3 and the present Mark 3 HST and loco hauled designated Mark 4 and so on.

The reason is that Mark 2 D, E and F are almost completely different from the earlier Mark 2 stock, in terms of technology and interior layout.

Also why did they not design a proper mark 2 buffet car because old Mark 1 buffets were still often used in Mark 2 sets almost to the early 2000s.

This isn't by way of a definitive answer, more a thought. The Mark 2 D, E and F appeared to have a very similar basic body shell to the earlier Mark 2's. It wasn't a radically new design, it was just air conditioned.

 

[455driver]

The mark 2Cs were also built with the intention of fitting air conditioning but it was never fitted except for 1 coach.

 

[edwin_m]

This isn't by way of a definitive answer, more a thought. The Mark 2 D, E and F appeared to have a very similar basic body shell to the earlier Mark 2's. It wasn't a radically new design, it was just air conditioned.

I think that's right. The narrower windows without toplights made the Mk2d onwards look very different and more like a Mk3 at first glance, but looking at the ends and the doors in particular, they were very similar to the Mk2c. Even the interiors were similar - Mk2d as built had the seats in fixed pairs with "wings" on the headrests, with trim in black vinyl and even wood effect, not much different from Mk2c. The IC70 seats and more modern interiors came in with Mk2f I think, but could have been Mk2e.

 

[30907]

As to catering vehicles, the Mk 1s were mostly built from about 1960 so were relatively new.
Conveniently, pre-war restaurant cars were all withdrawn in WW2, which gave them an extra six years' life, which is why the Mk 1s were slow appearing.
And historically they were low mileage vehicles even in peacetime until more recently.
There wasn't a business case for withdrawing expensively equipped vehicles.
However, full meal service was quickly switched from Mk 1s to Mk2 FOs.

 

[ac6000cw]

AFAIK, all the Mk2s also used the B4 (or B5 in a few cases?) bogie design.

 

[455driver]

AFAIK, all the Mk2s also used the B4 (or B5 in a few cases?) bogie design.

I think all the mark 2s were fitted with B4s, early ones had friction dampers later ones (2Fs only I think) had hydraulic dampers.

The B5s were used under mark 1 Catering and Sleeper vehicles and later fitted to TPOs.

 

[satisnek]

The way I've always known it:

2b = wide, wraparound end doors and no centre doors.

2c = lowered ceiling to accommodate aircon, not fitted.

2d = aircon, PA, revised (non-opening) windows.

2e = smaller toilet compartments with luggage racks opposite.

2f = Mark 3-style interior and seating.

The Mark 3 had a totally different bodyshell (longer, for a start).

 

[Jonny]

The Mark 3 had a totally different bodyshell (longer, for a start).

Exactly - 64 feet (Mark 2) vs 75 feet (mark 3, also mark 4)

Most Mark 1s were also 64 feet, although shorter variants existed.

 

[jopsuk]

As well as very little in the way of catering vehicles, there were no mark 2 sleepers- as again these were lightly used stock in the mark 1 range so didn't need replaced.

 

[edwin_m]

No Mk2 catering vehicles were built new, though some were converted later. Including, if I recall correctly, one where the sides were thickened internally to represent the APT cross-section, to see if a workable buffet could be provided in the reduced space available.

When the Mk3 catering cars were built some of them were included in Euston-Birmingham sets that were otherwise Mk2.

 

[craigybagel]

No Mk2 catering vehicles were built new

Not quite

http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/D1733/media/5404.jpg.html

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaching_stock_of_Ireland#Mark_2_.281972-2008.29

 

[jimm]

No Mk2 catering vehicles were built new, though some were converted later. Including, if I recall correctly, one where the sides were thickened internally to represent the APT cross-section, to see if a workable buffet could be provided in the reduced space available.

When the Mk3 catering cars were built some of them were included in Euston-Birmingham sets that were otherwise Mk2.

There were a couple of experimental coaches converted from TSOs in the late 1970s, notably RSS M1800 (formerly M5970), which was, as edwin_m says, to test ideas for APT catering cars. I remember seeing M1800 in service once at Carlisle in about 1978. It was later sold to NIR and rebogied for use on the Enterprise between Belfast and Dublin as No 546, before being returned to the UK and regauged again to become part of West Coast Railways' fleet as 1800 Tintagel. Pic here http://www.railtourinfo.co.uk/images/Coaches/1800weymouth290706.jpg

Couple of pics of it in InterCity guise at the top of the page here with a mention of the other short-lived conversion http://www.eastbank.org.uk/br_coaches.htm

However, full meal service was quickly switched from Mk 1s to Mk2 FOs.

In some cases yes, but there were still Mk1 open restaurant cars paired with RKB kitchen-buffets on many ECML expresses until HSTs arrived in 1978 and a few survived on other Eastern Region jobs until 1981.