May 2022 Timetable Changes

[ChiefPlanner]

There seems to be something symbolic that Blackpool is felt as if it should have direct trains from London, without considering actual demand or frequency of the local services.

Over the years - and even in BR days , Blackpool to London services come and go. (even had a Pullman service in proper BR days , but that really was for Preston southwards)

 

[Kite159]

ORCATS now merely serves to redistribute revenue between different pots within the DfT. A reduction in services will simply result in a slightly larger share of the revenue ending in SWR's pot. It is the reduction in total revenue from such pointless skip-stopping that matters.

Ultimately, these services were designed to call at these stations and they now instead have excess pathing or dwell time. The purported justification of needing longer dwell times "due to social distancing" simply doesn't wash anymore. Reinstating the stops is as close to a "free lunch" as it gets on the railway, therefore XC's reticence to do so utterly baffles me.

Especially when the XC services called at all the usual stations between Coventry & Stafford. And I dare say there will be more "local" passengers using the XC services boarding at Coventry & Wolverhampton heading into Birmingham than there was at Winchester wanting Basingstoke. Considering they are faster than the alternatives

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I just had a look at Salisbury for 25th May and it shows two trains departing for the same destination at the same time:

2V92 and 1V94 are both due to leave Salisbury for Worcester Foregate Street at 1112hrs. However whereas 1V94 is the current 0859 departure from Brighton, train 2V92 is shown as arriving from Westbury as 2O07 at 1106hrs. I wonder which will prove to be correct.

Dave

Looks like it will be the Class 2 as it now appears to be in the public domain that GWR are pulling all their remaining Brighton trains from May, as reported in another thread.

 

[Nottingham59]

There seems to be something symbolic that Blackpool is felt as if it should have direct trains from London, without considering actual demand or frequency of the local services.

I personally think that's because Blackpool is one of the regular destinations for Party Conferences. So all the ministers in DfT etc. are likely to have travelled to Blackpool from London several times over the years. And can therefore visualise traffic demand on that route, including a need for first class travel.

Same as East-West Rail. Most of the SDS (Senior Civil Service) will have gone to university at either Oxford or Cambridge. And many of their mates from their posh private schools will have gone to the other one. So they will be all be able to imagine an unmet traffic need between Oxford and Cambridge; and many of them will have actually done that journey at some point.

It's easy to underestimate the power of ministerial experiences in shaping transport polocy. Probably a topic for another thread though ......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blackpool isn't because of demand, they mostly appear to run near empty. It's just a "terminus of convenience" to avoid them blocking platforms at Preston, a bit like the perennial discussion about Manchester Airport.

Expensive way of turning a train around.

So's sending them to Ringway, but whenever I question that people shout in its defence. Preston doesn't have the capacity to have a full length Pendolino sat there for most of an hour all day.

 

[Class 466]

GTR now showing downstream, Big changes on SN with ECR-MKC cut back to CLJ-WFJ (2O49 1552 Watford Junction to Clapham Junction) along with other metro alterations (to free up & enable 377s to replace 455s). TL SEV-WGC in the peaks also showing (9Y76 0552 Sevenoaks to Welwyn Garden City) I'd assume any train with a (Q) showing wont be running.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GTR now showing downstream, Big changes on SN with ECR-MKC cut back to CLJ-WFJ (2O49 1552 Watford Junction to Clapham Junction) along with other metro alterations (to free up & enable 377s to replace 455s). TL SEV-WGC in the peaks also showing (9Y76 0552 Sevenoaks to Welwyn Garden City) I'd assume any train with a (Q) showing wont be running.

Cut back of MKC service inevitable given it duplicates LNWR services but good to see the WGC service is commencing. That just leaves the Maidstone East services to get us to the 24TPH that Thameslink promised us for five years of disruption

 

[JonathanH]

GTR now showing downstream, Big changes on SN with ECR-MKC cut back to CLJ-WFJ (2O49 1552 Watford Junction to Clapham Junction) along with other metro alterations (to free up & enable 377s to replace 455s). TL SEV-WGC in the peaks also showing (9Y76 0552 Sevenoaks to Welwyn Garden City) I'd assume any train with a (Q) showing wont be running.

Two obscure Hemel Hempstead terminators in there.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

VIC-Brighton GatEx back in the schedules with Gatwick terminators in as Q path. So the demise of GX from May 22 not happening?

 

[Kite159]

VIC-Brighton GatEx back in the schedules with Gatwick terminators in as Q path. So the demise of GX from May 22 not happening?

The DfT won't be giving the Gatwick tourist tax up without a fight

 

[JonathanH]

VIC-Brighton GatEx back in the schedules with Gatwick terminators in as Q path. So the demise of GX from May 22 not happening?

Anything with a Q is clearly just there to retain the path in case they want to restore it some time. It equally may never run again.

 

[Kite159]

Two obscure Hemel Hempstead terminators in there.

No doubt those will be popular with track bashers looking to tick of the crossover to the south of the station.

 

[bramling]

GTR now showing downstream, Big changes on SN with ECR-MKC cut back to CLJ-WFJ (2O49 1552 Watford Junction to Clapham Junction) along with other metro alterations (to free up & enable 377s to replace 455s). TL SEV-WGC in the peaks also showing (9Y76 0552 Sevenoaks to Welwyn Garden City) I'd assume any train with a (Q) showing wont be running.

GN/TL outers look to be largely as per Dec 21, no weekday 12 cars as far as I can see. Just based on a rough countup I make the weekday 387 requirement to be as little as 26 units (on paper it’s slightly more as there appears to be a pair which run empty Peterborough Nene to Hornsey and another which do the opposite).

The Cambridge stopping service reverts to its normal pattern of everything going to Cambridge, with one lunchtime train continuing to reverse at Letchworth (which we presume is to accommodate a freight path).

Inners are 2tph off-peak 4tph peak on both routes, with a couple of Gordon Hill extras in the peak.

It’s quite sobering that off-peak on the outers there is 8tph into London overall (2tph from Peterborough route, 6tph from Cambridge route) compared to 6tph in the 1990s, yet on the inners there is 4tph (2tph from each route) compared to 6tph in the 1990s. Quite depressing really.

This is no doubt this sparse level of GN capacity is how GTR will be able to see off the 313 and 455 fleets. But how long before we get some severe overcrowding? Trouble ahead, methinks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2022 ==

No doubt those will be popular with track bashers looking to tick of the crossover to the south of the station.

There’s also a trackbashing opportunity to run via Welwyn Garden City platform 1 on the 0456 Letchworth - King’s Cross if one doesn’t mind being up early! At one point this move was *very* rare, though it has cropped up on the same service over the last couple of years.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Good to see the Welwyn's finally there, well timed for me personally now that the office return is 'On'. Would be nice if they could get the last two Orpingtons in the morning (8.32/ 9.32) to run on at least Kentish Town and (16.57/ 18.56) from Blackfriars to Orpington back from there too. Still arguably the best peak service they've ever run on the line.

 

[higthomas]

Inners are 2tph off-peak 4tph peak on both routes, with a couple of Gordon Hill extras in the peak.

It’s quite sobering that off-peak on the outers there is 8tph into London overall (2tph from Peterborough route, 6tph from Cambridge route) compared to 6tph in the 1990s, yet on the inners there is 4tph (2tph from each route) compared to 6tph in the 1990s. Quite depressing really.

Do you know why GTR seem so reluctant to increase off peak frequencies? They have enough 717s, and I'm sure the demand is there. There's a lot of people who use alternative routes (bus to Piccadilly etc) because the service is so infrequent (by London standards).

 

[Starmill]

Do you know why GTR seem so reluctant to increase off peak frequencies? They have enough 717s, and I'm sure the demand is there. There's a lot of people who use alternative routes (bus to Piccadilly etc) because the service is so infrequent (by London standards).

Usually it is because they cannot put out any more driver diagrams.

 

[bramling]

I

Usually it is because they cannot put out any more driver diagrams.

Yes I strongly suspect it's down to crewing, the inner suburban depots seem particular affected. That said, it's hardly great that with loads of peak extras missing they *still* can't manage 4 tph during the midday.

The Hertford loop in particular is now getting massive complaints regarding overcrowding, both peak and off-peak. It was always busy, and from what I gather loadings have bounced back particularly at the London end.

The Welwyn 717 peak services should improve from May with the introduction of Welwyn-Sevenoaks, which restores 4tph of Thameslink services to/from Welwyn, and has the added benefit of being 8-car. Hertford is going to be more the problem.

 

[TB]

Slightly surprised to see Northern's 07:25 Skipton to Carnforth will start back from Bradford at 06:41 and call all stations to Skipton.

Presumably frees up an EMU for some reason?

 

[30907]

Slightly surprised to see Northern's 07:25 Skipton to Carnforth will start back from Bradford at 06:41 and call all stations to Skipton.

Replaced an 0719 Leeds- Lancs, so presumably to do with stock balances.

Presumably frees up an EMU for some reason?

Not obviously, 0737 up still runs.

 

[Halish Railway]

Slightly surprised to see Northern's 07:25 Skipton to Carnforth will start back from Bradford at 06:41 and call all stations to Skipton.

Presumably frees up an EMU for some reason?

Whilst I was looking at that I came across this runs as required path running through the Aire Valley at a similar time starting from the May timetable change.

Realtime Trains | 4S70 0551 Wrenthorpe Gbrf to Ayr Harbour | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 4S70 0551 departure from Wrenthorpe Gbrf to Ayr Harbour on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Adam0984]

Replaced an 0719 Leeds- Lancs, so presumably to do with stock balances.

Not obviously, 0737 up still runs.

It was meant to start in Leeds from last December but it couldn't get a path out of Leeds so was replaced with an earlier ECS Leeds to Skipton and started there to Carnforth, obviously the best they can do at the moment is to start it at Bradford

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I


Yes I strongly suspect it's down to crewing, the inner suburban depots seem particular affected. That said, it's hardly great that with loads of peak extras missing they *still* can't manage 4 tph during the midday.

The Hertford loop in particular is now getting massive complaints regarding overcrowding, both peak and off-peak. It was always busy, and from what I gather loadings have bounced back particularly at the London end.

The Welwyn 717 peak services should improve from May with the introduction of Welwyn-Sevenoaks, which restores 4tph of Thameslink services to/from Welwyn, and has the added benefit of being 8-car. Hertford is going to be more the problem.

717 fleet costs £15m per year to lease which are on a pay whether your using them or not basis. Seems surprising they've lost so many drivers over the last two years but if they have GTR should be on notice from DofT to explain what the plan is to train up sufficient crew to restore the service and communicate that to passengers.

 

[TheBigD]

Seems surprising they've lost so many drivers over the last two years but if they have GTR should be on notice from DofT to explain what the plan is to train up sufficient crew to restore the service and communicate that to passengers.

Question...

Does GTR have an issue with recruiting/training drivers and them leaving for better quality work at TOCs like LNER/AVC etc etc?

Around a decade or more ago, London Midland had major issues at Birmingham with drivers being recruited/trained and then jumping ship to XC for the better quality work, and at the time, around £10k more on the salary. In the mess rooms, LM was often jokingly referred to as XCs training school!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Question...

Does GTR have an issue with recruiting/training drivers and them leaving for better quality work at TOCs like LNER/AVC etc etc?

Around a decade or more ago, London Midland had major issues at Birmingham with drivers being recruited/trained and then jumping ship to XC for the better quality work, and at the time, around £10k more on the salary. In the mess rooms, LM was often jokingly referred to as XCs training school!

Its my understanding that GTR's issue was that they never had enough train drivers to run the May 18 timetable in the first place. It then took them 2 years to get to the level of having enough drivers, then covid hit, driver training stopped, people left, new people weren't recruited and now they are short again.

GTR actually have quite good terms and conditions apparently, and I think there are actually quite a lot of people who jump from Southeastern to GTR for train driver jobs.

 

[bramling]

717 fleet costs £15m per year to lease which are on a pay whether your using them or not basis. Seems surprising they've lost so many drivers over the last two years but if they have GTR should be on notice from DofT to explain what the plan is to train up sufficient crew to restore the service and communicate that to passengers.

Put it this way, who wants to spend all day every day driving up and down Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford on a 717, stops every couple of minutes, tunnel down to Moorgate (which seems to be particularly unpopular), short turnarounds on many trips. I’m not sure this is entirely down to Covid, that has simply heavily magnified an issue which was already simmering.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Put it this way, who wants to spend all day every day driving up and down Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford on a 717, stops every couple of minutes, tunnel down to Moorgate (which seems to be particularly unpopular), short turnarounds on many trips. I’m not sure this is entirely down to Covid, that has simply heavily magnified an issue which was already simmering.

Many operators have captive routes for train crew these days ie no worse than LO i would suggest.

 

[bramling]

Its my understanding that GTR's issue was that they never had enough train drivers to run the May 18 timetable in the first place. It then took them 2 years to get to the level of having enough drivers, then covid hit, driver training stopped, people left, new people weren't recruited and now they are short again.

GTR actually have quite good terms and conditions apparently, and I think there are actually quite a lot of people who jump from Southeastern to GTR for train driver jobs.

It possibly doesn’t help that there’s some competition for drivers in the GN area - from LNER, and also to a slightly lesser extent EMR at St Pancras. Inner suburban work is always unpopular, and it doesn’t help the way GTR have pigeon holed everything so there isn’t as much variety as pre-2018.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2022 ==

Many operators have captive routes for train crew these days ie no worse than LO i would suggest.

It isn’t, but why would you want to do it when you could be doing much less tedious outer suburban work for the same money?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It possibly doesn’t help that there’s some competition for drivers in the GN area - from LNER, and also to a slightly lesser extent EMR at St Pancras. Inner suburban work is always unpopular, and it doesn’t help the way GTR have pigeon holed everything so there isn’t as much variety as pre-2018.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2022 ==



It isn’t, but why would you want to do it when you could be doing much less tedious outer suburban work for the same money?

I have to say a 717 cab doesn't look like the most appetising of environment compared to its 700 sisters

 

[Bald Rick]

717 fleet costs £15m per year to lease which are on a pay whether your using them or not basis. Seems surprising they've lost so many drivers over the last two years but if they have GTR should be on notice from DofT to explain what the plan is to train up sufficient crew to restore the service and communicate that to passengers.

I am certain that GTR, indeed all TOCs, will be explaining their driver position in detail to the DfT in the8r 4 weekly contracts review.

The issue is the continued high level of absence of drivers. I don’t think that’s that much in the way of vacancies.

Does GTR have an issue with recruiting/training drivers and them leaving for better quality work at TOCs like LNER/AVC etc etc?

Not really.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I am certain that GTR, indeed all TOCs, will be explaining their driver position in detail to the DfT in the8r 4 weekly contracts review.

Good to hear but so disappointing they don't communicate to their key stakeholders the passengers what the underlying issues are