McGill's Buses - Renfrewshire & Inverclyde

[Gingerbus1991]

Thanks for confirming. Wasn't sure. Surely with a euro3 bus it would be more cost effective just to sell the vehicle on or if First transfer it outside an LEZ zone as it must be pretty expensive to get these vehicles retrofitted.

Euro3 buses such as a 2004 B7TLs doesn't make sense upgrading them but I'm sure Baumot and Eminox can do it, but of course considering that First will very likely upgrade there B9TLs, some of them already being 2007/08/09 models means they are 10-12 years old, the 2004 buses aren't that much older. It a waste really.

Essentially the Eminox as I'm aware it cost approx £15000 per bus to upgrade,

 

[Jordan Adam]

Euro3 B7TL's can be retrofitted.

https://www.route-one.net/articles/...veals_its_first_BEAR_funded_retrofitted_buses

There will be a "6" sticker on buses meeting euro6 levels whether they've came out a factory that way or have been converted.

I could be mistaken but I think I read somewhere that it's HJS Emission Technologies that are doing the retrofits on the B8RLEs.

*edited: I had read that. Note the screenshot

Assume you mean B7RLE? Not too sure who in their right mind would refit a B7TL, the B9TLs i can sort of see the reasoning behind. It all comes down to the book value of the vehicles and whether or not they can reclaim the costs before retirement.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Assume you mean B7RLE? Not too sure who in their right mind would refit a B7TL, the B9TLs i can sort of see the reasoning behind. It all comes down to the book value of the vehicles and whether or not they can reclaim the costs before retirement.

I wasn't all that clear, sorry @Jordan Adam and @SarahDFIG, both Euro3 B7TL(doubles) and B7RLE(singles) can be retrofitted, they have the same engine just tuned at different horsepower outputs, that's what I should have said, McGills 2011 models are also being converted.

For the sake of arguments FiG are using Baumot to retrofit.

Downsides to converting a Euro 3/4 engine is the likelihood the retrofitted unit will have to use more adblue than it would if fitted to a Standard Euro 5 engine.
Making even more sense just to retrofit E5 models.

If it were up to me, it'd be simpler to move the E3/B7 singles to Midland Bluebird and take there E5/B7 for retrofit.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I wasn't all that clear, sorry @Jordan Adam and @SarahDFIG, both Euro3 B7TL(doubles) and B7RLE(singles) can be retrofitted, they have the same engine just tuned at different horsepower outputs, that's what I should have said, McGills 2011 models are also being converted.

For the sake of arguments FiG are using Baumot to retrofit.

Downsides to converting a Euro 3/4 engine is the likelihood the retrofitted unit will have to use more adblue than it would if fitted to a Standard Euro 5 engine.
Making even more sense just to retrofit E5 models.

If it were up to me, it'd be simpler to move the E3/B7 singles to Midland Bluebird and take there E5/B7 for retrofit.

Indeed the Euro 3 B7RLE and B7TL both use the Volvo made D7C 7300CC engine compliant to Euro 3. B7RLE's rated at 260BHP, B7TLs at 215/250BHP. B7RLEs from 07 plate use the Deutz designed D7E 7100CC engine which is compliant to Euro 5 with a output of 290BHP.

I agree with again, the logic behind refitting Euro 3 B7RLEs just doesn't add up when there's a load of Euro 5 compliant B7RLEs at Aberdeen and Scotland East. That being said i highly doubt Aberdeen would be pleased to release them as they're one of the most reliable bus types in the fleet, where as Euro 3 examples are far less reliable.

 

[winston270twm]

Euro3 buses such as a 2004 B7TLs doesn't make sense upgrading them but I'm sure Baumot and Eminox can do it, but of course considering that First will very likely upgrade there B9TLs, some of them already being 2007/08/09 models means they are 10-12 years old, the 2004 buses aren't that much older. It a waste really.

Essentially the Eminox as I'm aware it cost approx £15000 per bus to upgrade,

National Express West Midlands have upgraded numerous 51/53/54 plate Volvo B7TL's & 52/03/53/04 & 54 Tridents over the past year or so, even knowing that some of those buses being retrofitted with Euro 6 exhaust upgrades will have limited service lives left. The 51 plate Volvo B7TL's had the exhaust upgrade but weren't deemed worthy of internal refurbishment & painting it to two-tone red livery (Crimson), this I understand is due to the exhaust systems being easily be removed on withdrawal & re-fitted on to other buses in the fleet.

 

[Volvodart]

The funding available in Scotland has a condition that you keep the bus for 5 years.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The funding available in Scotland has a condition that you keep the bus for 5 years.

As far as I can see any B7 no older than 2006 could certainly operate for a further 5 years, there is still certainly a point to converting older vehicles, if a bus is out of service for sale, an old euro3 certainly will find it hard to be in the hand of another operator given its age, a stored bus also just takes up space, its a toss of the coin what is happening with any operator around glasgow regarding fitment and compliance to meet E6 levels, lets see how things look in 2022.

I certainly think it would be such a waste if FiGs 2006/2007 B7TLs getting cascaded elsewhere.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

National Express West Midlands have upgraded numerous 51/53/54 plate Volvo B7TL's & 52/03/53/04 & 54 Tridents over the past year or so, even knowing that some of those buses being retrofitted with Euro 6 exhaust upgrades will have limited service lives left. The 51 plate Volvo B7TL's had the exhaust upgrade but weren't deemed worthy of internal refurbishment & painting it to two-tone red livery (Crimson), this I understand is due to the exhaust systems being easily be removed on withdrawal & re-fitted on to other buses in the fleet.

much of glasgows 2004/2005 could certainly be cascaded to replace Falkirk/Stirlings older B7 Tridents and scania N94UDs, I do quite like the scanias though and there still 2005 plates.

At least McGills are making some changes, perhaps not the right ones of course, much of McGills fleet elsewhere around renfrewshire and inverclyde could certainly benefit from replacement.

 

[Scott mac]

From what a hear first will not be making their 54 plate deckers euro 6 same for their 55 06 56 plate single decks

 

[overthewater]

There is a LEZ thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...urgh-dundee-and-aberdeen.176088/#post-3812959

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Indeed the Euro 3 B7RLE and B7TL both use the Volvo made D7C 7300CC engine compliant to Euro 3. B7RLE's rated at 260BHP, B7TLs at 215/250BHP. B7RLEs from 07 plate use the Deutz designed D7E 7100CC engine which is compliant to Euro 5 with a output of 290BHP.

I agree with again, the logic behind refitting Euro 3 B7RLEs just doesn't add up when there's a load of Euro 5 compliant B7RLEs at Aberdeen and Scotland East. That being said i highly doubt Aberdeen would be pleased to release them as they're one of the most reliable bus types in the fleet, where as Euro 3 examples are far less reliable.

Im about to go wayy off topic, but...

The D7E was originally used in trucks at 250, 280 and 320hp for euro5, but the D7E with 290 was produced as a bus variant as a bus required a rise in peak torque at a lower rpm given there used around cities mostly hence the gearbox can upshift earlier improving efficiency yet still maintain responsiveness.
The D7C was original a 6.7ltr in early D7A form which was used in trucks until it was bored out in size, the D7A can be found in older trucks nowadays but nowdays its actually the D7E engine with the D7A naming for truck use until euro5.
The D7C and D7E engine blocks were both manufactured by deutz alongside Volvo/Renault Truck each as co-developers for the engine, after they are built the engine blocks are shipped to Renault/Volvo Trucks for assembly(Turbo, injectors etc etc).
The D9A/D9B engines that can be found in a B9TL was co-developed by Volvo/Renault Trucks as well but built by Volvo in Skövde-Sweden, the older DH12C and D13C engines found in B12B/B13R coach chassis are also built in Skövde, the D13C is still produced for Euro6 as the D13K for truck use at 500hp.

The latest round of Renault/Volvo co-produced engines are the current Euro6 motors found in the Volvo B5, B8 and B11 chassis, The D5K, D8K and D11K engine blocks are currently manufactured by UB-Trucks at there UB-Buses engine division plant in bangalore-india, which Volvo Group actually purchased from the previous owner Nissan.

The D5/D8/D11 engines can be found as the DTI-5, DTI-8 or DTI-11 in renaults own range of trucks.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

There is a LEZ thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...urgh-dundee-and-aberdeen.176088/#post-3812959

Deviations happen occasionally before snipping right back to the original topic...

 

[Jordan Adam]

Im about to go wayy off topic, but...

The D7E was originally used in trucks at 250, 280 and 320hp for euro5, but the D7E with 290 was produced as a bus variant as a bus required a rise in peak torque at a lower rpm given there used around cities mostly hence the gearbox can upshift earlier improving efficiency yet still maintain responsiveness.
The D7C was original a 6.7ltr in early D7A form which was used in trucks until it was bored out in size, the D7A can be found in older trucks nowadays but nowdays its actually the D7E engine with the D7A naming for truck use until euro5.
The D7C and D7E engine blocks were both manufactured by deutz alongside Volvo/Renault Truck each as co-developers for the engine, after they are built the engine blocks are shipped to Renault/Volvo Trucks for assembly(Turbo, injectors etc etc).
The D9A/D9B engines that can be found in a B9TL was co-developed by Volvo/Renault Trucks as well but built by Volvo in Skövde-Sweden, the older DH12C and D13C engines found in B12B/B13R coach chassis are also built in Skövde, the D13C is still produced for Euro6 as the D13K for truck use at 500hp.

The latest round of Renault/Volvo co-produced engines are the current Euro6 motors found in the Volvo B5, B8 and B11 chassis, The D5K, D8K and D11K engine blocks are currently manufactured by UB-Trucks at there UB-Buses engine division plant in bangalore-india, which Volvo Group actually purchased from the previous owner Nissan.

The D5/D8/D11 engines can be found as the DTI-5, DTI-8 or DTI-11 in renaults own range of trucks.

Already knew most of that :P. As i'm sure you'll already know too, the D5K is actually in effect a D8K with 2 cylinders "chopped" off (much is the same with the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder Cummins ISB units). The older D9A engine is pretty much nonexistent in the UK bus market, i believe the only examples with it will be the early East Lancs bodied Tri-axle B9TLs. The moaner is away to jump out in me but the D9B is probably one of the most unreliable engines to ever be put in a Volvo bus/coach. Constant fuel injector issues and the drop like flys on warm days! That being said the D5K isn't much better.

Anyway, we better stop here as we're going very off topic now!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Already knew most of that :P. As i'm sure you'll already know too, the D5K is actually in effect a D8K with 2 cylinders "chopped" off (much is the same with the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder Cummins ISB units). The older D9A engine is pretty much nonexistent in the UK bus market, i believe the only examples with it will be the early East Lancs bodied Tri-axle B9TLs. The moaner is away to jump out in me but the D9B is probably one of the most unreliable engines to ever be put in a Volvo bus/coach. Constant fuel injector issues and the drop like flys on warm days! That being said the D5K isn't much better.

Anyway, we better stop here as we're going very off topic now!

Ex-Dublin Bus 2005 ADL 500 bodied B9’s use the D9A, Ensign has fairly recently advertised them for sale.

PS. as is Daimler’s modular OM934 and OM936 engines..

 

[Gingerbus1991]

So are McGills still with us?

 

[Volvodart]

Interesting news from their Tweets today;

SPT Zonecards not valid on the XP23
Student tickets not valid on the XP23
National Concession Cards not valid on the XP23
X23 will not operate before 9am
Your choice is pay up or get the bus that take over an hour and half instead

The timetable leaflet for the XP23 says:-

Zonecards will be accepted
• Tripper tickets will not be accepted on service XP23, but are valid
on service 23 & X23
• Student all-day tickets will return on 11 March 2019, see website
for details

http://www.mcgillsbuses.co.uk/resources/site1/General/23X23XP23 Info Leaflet (002).pdf

 

[overthewater]

Added journeys to this service! With more journeys to Glasgow than our current X23 morning peak service, this will ensure more seats are available for those travelling

But wait, Mcgills said it couldn't afford to operate more buses, and the existing ones were not paying?
It keeps on saying:

Service 23 may have adjusted the frequency to timetable between Braehead and Glasgow (Erskine-Braehead unaffected)

So Mcgills don't want to tell people about this cut. Actually in March more cuts are coming.............

We're making changes to your service 17 from Sunday 3 March.

• Will operate every 20 minutes Monday to Friday
• Will operate every 30 minutes on Saturdays
• Will no longer operate on Sundays, check out your alternative services:

While 517 is cut from every 10mins to every 12mins, 507 is cut from every 20mins to every 30mins.

No17 gone completely on sunday? It does seem First 77 is winning,

 

[Gingerbus1991]

But wait, Mcgills said it couldn't afford to operate more buses, and the existing ones were not paying?
It keeps on saying:


So Mcgills don't want to tell people about this cut. Actually in March more cuts are coming.............

We're making changes to your service 17 from Sunday 3 March.

• Will operate every 20 minutes Monday to Friday
• Will operate every 30 minutes on Saturdays
• Will no longer operate on Sundays, check out your alternative services:

While 517 is cut from every 10mins to every 12mins, 507 is cut from every 20mins to every 30mins.

No17 gone completely on sunday? It does seem First 77 is winning,

The 17 rarely sees anyone between the City centre and Partick.

 

[overthewater]

You can see what the next cut will be..

 

[sannox]

But wait, Mcgills said it couldn't afford to operate more buses, and the existing ones were not paying?
It keeps on saying:


So Mcgills don't want to tell people about this cut. Actually in March more cuts are coming.............

We're making changes to your service 17 from Sunday 3 March.

• Will operate every 20 minutes Monday to Friday
• Will operate every 30 minutes on Saturdays
• Will no longer operate on Sundays, check out your alternative services:

While 517 is cut from every 10mins to every 12mins, 507 is cut from every 20mins to every 30mins.

No17 gone completely on sunday? It does seem First 77 is winning,

The 17's market is Paisley to West End. The extension into town is useful to pick up office workers at Charing Cross end.

The major error is at night running it too close to the 38s so instead of splitting the frequency the two buses chase each other picking up the same passengers on the run to Johnstone (as the night ones head to depot).

edit- the other market is the QUEH to Paisley- in this regard the later buses seem to carry average loads of people, although I always thought shortsighted to ditch the through service to Linwood, but reliability might be better. Seems McGill's going for death by 1000 cuts. Once these further cuts reduce patronage further!

The 17 rarely sees anyone between the City centre and Partick.

The 77 and 17 don't really compete. The fragmented bus market means that most people in Glasgow will use First in that segment, hence why the 77 is more of a success. Same issue Arriva had when it ran the 27, it could never make a success of it and indeed the 3 has the same issue from Pollok to Glasgow. Even concession card holders wait on First buses which is bizarre.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The 17's market is Paisley to West End. The extension into town is useful to pick up office workers at Charing Cross end.

The major error is at night running it too close to the 38s so instead of splitting the frequency the two buses chase each other picking up the same passengers on the run to Johnstone (as the night ones head to depot).

edit- the other market is the QUEH to Paisley- in this regard the later buses seem to carry average loads of people, although I always thought shortsighted to ditch the through service to Linwood, but reliability might be better. Seems McGill's going for death by 1000 cuts. Once these further cuts reduce patronage further!



The 77 and 17 don't really compete. The fragmented bus market means that most people in Glasgow will use First in that segment, hence why the 77 is more of a success. Same issue Arriva had when it ran the 27, it could never make a success of it and indeed the 3 has the same issue from Pollok to Glasgow. Even concession card holders wait on First buses which is bizarre.

If indeed more people wait on Firsts services its very likely there used to dealing with first, elderly individuals especially who by nature don't like change and can get very stuck in there ways probably feel more comfortable just getting the same service all the time.

If that 17 was to ever get reduced to an unearthly point the 77 could easily be alter and extended out to paisley via Braehead and Hillington, I've had to mention it before but cant seem to find anyone who has a Tripper Card, it's seem glasgow just isn't taking to it as well as I thought they would.

 

[Volvodart]

Registrations are starting to go through for the 1 April 2019 changes. The only one complete so far is an XP21 between
Paisley, Smithhills Street and Glasgow, Hope Street.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

The timetable leaflet for the XP23 says:-

Zonecards will be accepted
• Tripper tickets will not be accepted on service XP23, but are valid
on service 23 & X23
• Student all-day tickets will return on 11 March 2019, see website
for details

http://www.mcgillsbuses.co.uk/resources/site1/General/23X23XP23 Info Leaflet (002).pdf

Their plan seems to be changing by the minute. They're now saying that anyone who has a weekly or monthly that they bought BEFORE 1/4/19 will not be allowed on the buses, that they'll have to just use the 23. This isnt bad planning, this just seems to be malice.

 

[christopherrfc]

theres been 2 new services registered from the 1st of pril

26a from inchinan to nethercraigs supported by spt

51a from Milliken Park to barrhead not supported by spt

 

[KGGXXXY]

Mcgill's getting bad press by the Evening times new campaign against bus drivers going through red lights etc. for snubbing them

https://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news...times-busted-campaign-exposing-dodgy-drivers/

"ONE of Glasgow’s biggest bus operators has snubbed our campaign to improve the safety of the city’s streets – despite several pictures and videos exposing bad behaviour by some of its drivers.

McGill’s Buses, which operates more than 100 routes across Greater Glasgow, has been blasted after images emerged showing services running red lights and blocking yellow boxes in the city centre.

But despite other operators – including First Bus and Stagecoach –pledging to launch internal investigations, McGill’s bosses say they’d rather ‘forget’ the Evening Times’ Busted campaign despite overwhelming evidence.

When asked to comment on images and videos of their drivers skipping red lights, representatives refused.

They also could not confirm if had received any complaints of dangerous driving – or whether additional training would be offered to employees.

However, they do plan to “look into” specific instances highlighted.

As part of the Busted campaign a video showed a McGill’s vehicle driving through a red light at a busy Paisley Road West junction more than six seconds before it turned to green."

 

[Volvodart]

Variations have gone through today for 1 April 2019 for the following:-

52 ,3, 26, 23 (23A), X21, 66, 757, 10, 72, 178, 51, X23, 54

 

[overthewater]

Nearly of them are Barrhead depot, so I take it the depot closing on the 1st April? Expect for 72, and 178 which are SPT.


http://www.mcgillsbuses.co.uk/news/renfrewshire-and-inverclyde-route-changes.aspx Thats another 6 - 7 buses off the road in March? dread to think whats coming in april

Renfrewshire changes include:

Service 61

• Slightly revised times
• Will continue to operate the same frequency

New timetable coming soon!

Service 7

• No changes to Monday to Saturday timetable
• Sunday evenings from 20.05 will operate hourly, no change to the route

View your new timetable here.

Service 17

• Will operate every 20 minutes Monday to Friday
• Will operate every 30 minutes on Saturdays
• Will no longer operate on Sundays, check out your alternative services:

Alternative McGill's services:
Between Glasgow and Paisley, please switch to service 38
For QEUH from Glasgow, please use service 23
For QEUH from Paisley, please board service 21 or 26, and transfer to service 23 at Intu Braehead

View your new timetable here.

Inverclyde changes include:

Service 907 - Last day of operation is Saturday 2 March

• Last day of operation is Saturday 2 March
• Our service 901 will continue to operate between McInroy's Point and Glasgow city centre every 30 minutes.
• Services 901 and 547 operate between McInroy's Point and Greenock town centre every 15 minutes.
• Services 901 and 906 will continue to operate every 15 minutes between Greenock town centre and Glasgow city centre.

Despite our best efforts, this service is not attracting the passenger numbers necessary to continue and unfortunately, we no longer have the ability to cross-subsidise this service.

Service 507

• Operates every 30 minutes, to and from Midton, Monday - Saturday
• Extended to Trumpethill every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday
• Sunday journeys (only) are extended to Gourock Station
• Operates every 60 minutes on Sundays

View your new timetable here.
Service 517

• Will now operate every 12 minutes Monday - Friday
• Will continue to operate every 12 minutes on Saturdays with minor changes to times
• Will continue to operate every 20 minutes on Sundays with minor changes to times

View our new timetable here.

Service 543

• No changes to frequency Monday - Friday
• No longer serves Waterfront Bingo
• Will now operate every 20 minutes on Saturdays
• Revised Sunday times, still operates every 30 minutes

View your new timetable here.

Service 545

• No changes to Monday - Saturday timetable
• Now operates every 60 minutes on a Sunday, on behalf of SPT
• Between service 545 and 507, Gourock Station will continue to be served every 30 minutes

View your new timetable here.

Service 547

• Slightly revised times
• Will continue to operate every 30 minutes

View your new timetable here.

Service 901/906

• Will continue to operate every 15 minutes combined
• 901 from Greenock will not serve Intu Braehead between 17.00 and 18.00, this will now operate to Glasgow via Renfrew Road, Paisley to replace prior 907 journeys. Please use service 906 for Intu Braehead between these times.

View your new timetable here.

 

[smtglasgow]

It’ll be interesting to see if these are just timetable changes to cover the depot moves, or something more. Doesn’t look like any withdrawals, but presumably some frequency reductions. Wonder when someone is going to blink on Paisley Rd West? Running 12 38s an hour out to Paisley can’t be doing much for the bottom line.

 

[route101]

If indeed more people wait on Firsts services its very likely there used to dealing with first, elderly individuals especially who by nature don't like change and can get very stuck in there ways probably feel more comfortable just getting the same service all the time.

If that 17 was to ever get reduced to an unearthly point the 77 could easily be alter and extended out to paisley via Braehead and Hillington, I've had to mention it before but cant seem to find anyone who has a Tripper Card, it's seem glasgow just isn't taking to it as well as I thought they would.

I use the 77 because i have a first pass and its more frequent .

 

[overthewater]

It’ll be interesting to see if these are just timetable changes to cover the depot moves, or something more. Doesn’t look like any withdrawals, but presumably some frequency reductions. Wonder when someone is going to blink on Paisley Rd West? Running 12 38s an hour out to Paisley can’t be doing much for the bottom line.

One hopes its just realigning the timetable to have buses stop in Paisley or Renfrew with the case of the 26. unless the 51/ 66 is going to every 12mins both both are pretty busy.