McGill's Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and Eastern Scottish)

[Dfatcontroller]

I saw a Citaro on the X10 earlier(3360) and in terms of the new livery, the Citaros suit it the best so far in my opinion.

3331 is on the X36 today.

 

[danielhogg2005]

I know this is not on topic but is there any way I can see old first scotland east maps from 2016/17? (asking on this thread because Mcgills took over Scotland East)

 

[Volvodart]

Post below has one from 2017:-

First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

To be quite honest, I do wonder if a point will come for management thinking that enough is enough in West Lothian. It does seem hit harder than most areas covered by any big company. Concession reimbursement being poor, under 22 pass reimbursement being poor, major driver shortages, a fleet in...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[danielhogg2005]

Post below has one from 2017:-

First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

To be quite honest, I do wonder if a point will come for management thinking that enough is enough in West Lothian. It does seem hit harder than most areas covered by any big company. Concession reimbursement being poor, under 22 pass reimbursement being poor, major driver shortages, a fleet in...

www.railforums.co.uk

Any other places where I should look?

 

[stevenedin]

Post below has one from 2017:-

First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

To be quite honest, I do wonder if a point will come for management thinking that enough is enough in West Lothian. It does seem hit harder than most areas covered by any big company. Concession reimbursement being poor, under 22 pass reimbursement being poor, major driver shortages, a fleet in...

www.railforums.co.uk

It’s quite sad to see that Fauldhouse has reduced from having 7 services to just 1.

 

[PaulMc7]

It’s quite sad to see that Fauldhouse has reduced from having 7 services to just 1.

The situation is absolutely dire across the whole of West Lothian and I don't see how it really changes for McGill's or Lothian Country. Even if the government funding cut didn't happen, the driver situation has been so bad it's demolished most of the network. The next 12-18 months will certainly be interesting anyway.

 

[Lothianbus703]

The situation is absolutely dire across the whole of West Lothian and I don't see how it really changes for McGill's or Lothian Country. Even if the government funding cut didn't happen, the driver situation has been so bad it's demolished most of the network. The next 12-18 months will certainly be interesting anyway.

My opinion:
McGill's are only holding onto Livingston depot for flixbus and Bright bus tours West Lothian has not got an improved service at all from McGill's and would probably be better running under first again. If Livingston was to be sold/closed I don't think it can get much worse without ending all bus services in West Lothian/Edinburgh at all. Livingston closing wouldn't mean an end to all bus services in west Lothian as emergency services would probably go into place run by other operators or a different approach would be taken.

Livingston's whole service fleet, excluding the Eastern e400s, is just a mix of Streetlites and E300s, some of which were cascaded in from Midland when they got cascades from the west. McGill's are making it clear they only want Eastern for the tours and coaches with very little improvement happening, If I was to describe the situation in one sentence I would say that Livingston was better under first.

Don't quote me on running better under First as we don't know what they could have done. Who knows, First might have reduced services to a level this low as well.
I do understand that there is a driver shortage and drivers don't come out of nowhere and have to be recruited/sourced.

 

[danielhogg2005]

It’s quite sad to see that Fauldhouse has reduced from having 7 services to just 1.

It's not just Fauldhouse, its everywhere. When I was in Livingston Centre in summer 2019 there were so many buses at the stances; now there are only 1 or 2 there at a time, 4 max.

With Lothian Country having better timetables and McGill's providing some more connections right now, the next year or so will be interesting indeed.

 

[PaulMc7]

My opinion:
McGill's are only holding onto Livingston depot for flixbus and Bright bus tours West Lothian has not got an improved service at all from McGill's and would probably be better running under first again. If Livingston was to be sold/closed I don't think it can get much worse without ending all bus services in West Lothian/Edinburgh at all. Livingston closing wouldn't mean an end to all bus services in west Lothian as emergency services would probably go into place run by other operators or a different approach would be taken.

Livingston's whole service fleet, excluding the Eastern e400s, is just a mix of Streetlites and E300s, some of which were cascaded in from Midland when they got cascades from the west. McGill's are making it clear they only want Eastern for the tours and coaches with very little improvement happening, If I was to describe the situation in one sentence I would say that Livingston was better under first.

Don't quote me on running better under First as we don't know what they could have done. Who knows, First might have reduced services to a level this low as well.
I do understand that there is a driver shortage and drivers don't come out of nowhere and have to be recruited/sourced.

I do agree with you regarding Flixbus and the Tours as they're a big opportunity that would certainly be difficult to pass up. Cuts would have definitely have come under First but I'd imagine that the extent would have been dependent on the driver situation just as it has been under McGill's. The vehicle situation definitely won't help attract drivers and to be honest at the very least they need to throw a massive pay rise for drivers at this just to even try and match Lothian. There is very evidently a lot of distrust from the people towards McGill's too from what I've heard and read about. People won't have the patience anymore either, given that it's incredibly well known that the owners are billionaires.

 

[stevenedin]

I think that they were probably hoping that they could gradually reduce the network until other companies step in and take over routes they removed and just keep the depot for Flixbus and Bright Bus Tours. To be honest they must be still making money on Eastern Scottish otherwise they wouldn’t run services at all.

 

[PaulMc7]

I think that they were probably hoping that they could gradually reduce the network until other companies step in and take over routes they removed and just keep the depot for Flixbus and Bright Bus Tours. To be honest they must be still making money on Eastern Scottish otherwise they wouldn’t run services at all.

The main problem I see with West Lothian in terms of bus operations is that unless the bus is serving St John's Hospital or Livingston Town Centre then it seems to be awfully difficult to have good passenger numbers. Lothian's X18 is the only service between them and Mcgills that doesn't serve either. Obviously, the 43 also does serve neither but it's massively out of the way anyway. The main help for Livingston Town Centre though is the fact that the train stations aren't remotely central at all so a bus would still be required from either one for most people.

 

[Baileygirl]

I think that they were probably hoping that they could gradually reduce the network until other companies step in and take over routes they removed and just keep the depot for Flixbus and Bright Bus Tours. To be honest they must be still making money on Eastern Scottish otherwise they wouldn’t run services at all.

Yes I agree that tours are now more important than scheduled services for McGill's. The wage for tour drivers is a lot more now at McGill's (at £14.00) than it was at First. The wage was lower than the service buses , but now is £1.10 more. First used to redirect tour drivers to service work when needed which does not happen now. The cancelations in scheduled services increased when the tour work increased with six extra buses being introduced to the tours in early June. First was a bit more socially aware of their passengers and I don't think they would have left so many areas without a service. Considering that McGill's network in West Lothian is about 40% of that run by First before the pandemic, surely their buses should be busier.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I think that they were probably hoping that they could gradually reduce the network until other companies step in and take over routes they removed and just keep the depot for Flixbus and Bright Bus Tours. To be honest they must be still making money on Eastern Scottish otherwise they wouldn’t run services at all.

Eastern Scottish is definately not making a profit. The profits from BBT wont even break even with the losses on the commercial services. Quite a contrast from 2017? when Livingston was Firsts highest profit turning depot

 

[Ding Ding]

Eastern Scottish is definately not making a profit. The profits from BBT wont even break even with the losses on the commercial services. Quite a contrast from 2017? when Livingston was Firsts highest profit turning depot

Eastern Scottish is not making a profit. I think that is evident to anyone with two eyes, two eyes that see their passenger loads. The fact that they no longer run early morning, late evening, or any Sunday services, tells you all you need to know. The services they run, where they have no competition, are earning nowhere near enough to be turning a profit. The services they run in competition with Lothian Country are certainly not. If you see the loads they have on the services that run into Edinburgh, you see the occasional busy looking bus, but that is in the peak period. When Lothian are running late outwith these times, the buses are running virtually empty. The services they run in West Lothian, again, look busy at times, but they cannot be generating enough revenue to be keeping a depot and all it's costs going, on their own. The cost of having so many agency staff must be another millstone round their necks.

The Bright Bus Tours operation will be generating a decent return on the money spent on set up, and will be turning a profit on a daily basis. Flixbus is a new venture as far as operating out of Livingston is concerned, so will not be generating any significant revenue for the depot. It remains to be seen what McGill's intentions are for service work in West Lothian, but the fact that it cannot be in any way profitable on its own. That raises serious doubts as to it's long term future.

In the words of Blackadder's Baldrick, McGill's might have a cunning plan, but I very much doubt it.

 

[stevenedin]

My guess is that once the City of Edinburgh Council tenders are given back, they will cancel the rest of the commercial services apart from possibly the tours and Flixbus. They could possibly move their depot to somewhere in Edinburgh and sell the Livingston depot if this happens to save money.

 

[overthewater]

Which is a shame as the staff are trying their best.

It will all depend on what or if McGill's bids for in October with the new West Lothian tenders services. If they won any, then the company isn't going anywhere.

 

[PaulMc7]

My guess is that once the City of Edinburgh Council tenders are given back, they will cancel the rest of the commercial services apart from possibly the tours and Flixbus. They could possibly move their depot to somewhere in Edinburgh and sell the Livingston depot if this happens to save money.

If they can hold on until the Edinburgh Council tenders are given back, it might give them a chance to stabilise West Lothian due to the driver requirements of the 20, 63 and 68 each week. The only way I see any chance of success is if they can get reliability sorted and it tempts some people back onto their buses. It's definitely a precarious situation anyway. It's October for the end of the current Edinburgh council contracts isn't it?

 

[stevenedin]

Which is a shame as the staff are trying their best.

It will all depend on what or IF Mcgill bids for in October with the new West Lothian tenders services. If they won any, then the company isn't going anywhere...

I’d like to hope that the company will turn it around but it’s a shame the way it has been done. It actually makes me wonder if Lothian Country and Covid never happened would West Lothian still be as successful as in 2017 under First.

 

[roadierway77]

My guess is that once the City of Edinburgh Council tenders are given back, they will cancel the rest of the commercial services apart from possibly the tours and Flixbus. They could possibly move their depot to somewhere in Edinburgh and sell the Livingston depot if this happens to save money.

But then who would take over services in West Lothian? Unfortunately for McGill’s, LCB have little remaining interest in West Lothian, and the smaller operators do not have anywhere near enough resources for the network to be split amongst them. A complete withdrawal would not work either - local residents and political figures would not allow all of the local services to be cut, they'd put up a real fight.

 

[PaulMc7]

But then who would take over services in West Lothian? Unfortunately for McGill’s, LCB have little remaining interest in West Lothian, and the smaller operators do not have anywhere near enough resources for the network to be split amongst them. A complete withdrawal would not work either - local residents and political figures would not allow all of the local services to be cut, they'd put up a real fight.

Unless local residents and politicians can magic up a lot of extra drivers and actually use the buses enough to be profitable then there isn't really much they can do to stop anyone pulling out of the area. That's the sad reality of the situation.

 

[overthewater]

Lets cross that bridge if or when it does happen.

 

[Siemens Trains]

But then who would take over services in West Lothian? Unfortunately for McGill’s, LCB have little remaining interest in West Lothian, and the smaller operators do not have anywhere near enough resources for the network to be split amongst them. A complete withdrawal would not work either - local residents and political figures would not allow all of the local services to be cut, they'd put up a real fight.

They've managed without McGill's Eastern Sunday and evening services. Would withdrawing the rest (or spreading contracts amongst other operators) make that much difference, especially if passenger numbers are so low?

 

[ScotRail158725]

My guess is that once the City of Edinburgh Council tenders are given back, they will cancel the rest of the commercial services apart from possibly the tours and Flixbus. They could possibly move their depot to somewhere in Edinburgh and sell the Livingston depot if this happens to save money.

But then who would take over services in West Lothian? Unfortunately for McGill’s, LCB have little remaining interest in West Lothian

If McGills were to get rid of their West Lothian operations the situation would be the same as bournemouth last year. Lothian might not be into West Lothian right now but if McGills pull out the chances are they’d fill in Blackridge, Livingston-Whitburn and Livingston-West Calder/Fauldhouse as most drivers would transfer over with the smaller places would likely go to tender and get snapped up by Horsburgh and other smaller operators

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is probably going off topic and maybe worth starting a separate what would happen in West Lothian speculation thread, but I too can see McGill's ditching most of the local service and sending the bits of the fleet with any value to midland or west Scotland and offering the rest to whichever desperate scrap man happens to be passing at the time

The tours and coaches, which could indeed make a private hire side up as well if they wanted to challenge the likes of horsburgh on school contracts and rail replacement could continue to be based out of Livingston depot which is worth something

 

[stevenedin]

This is probably going off topic and maybe worth starting a separate what would happen in West Lothian speculation thread, but I too can see McGill's ditching most of the local service and sending the bits of the fleet with any value to midland or west Scotland and offering the rest to whichever desperate scrap man happens to be passing at the time

The tours and coaches, which could indeed make a private hire side up as well if they wanted to challenge the likes of horsburgh on school contracts and rail replacement could continue to be based out of Livingston depot which is worth something

They could always sell the fleet to Ensignbus and it may end up back at First

There is currently a thread for speculation and ideas for Edinburgh and the Lothians

Edinburgh & the Lothians bus network speculations & ideas

The 13 subsidised route between Blackhall and Lochend I think should be changed from Blackhall to Canonmills (using the loop at Eyre Place). I think that the 49 should be diverted along Findlay Gardens from Restalrig Road South onto Craigentinny Road/Sleigh Drive to cover for the loss and the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Ding Ding]

If McGills were to get rid of their West Lothian operations the situation would be the same as bournemouth last year. Lothian might not be into West Lothian right now but if McGills pull out the chances are they’d fill in Blackridge, Livingston-Whitburn and Livingston-West Calder/Fauldhouse as most drivers would transfer over with the smaller places would likely go to tender and get snapped up by Horsburgh and other smaller operators

I think people are jumping the gun here. I don't think a withdrawal is on the cards, not at the moment anyway. I think McGill's have been caught out by rushing into the purchase of First's operations. It doesn't look like due diligence was carried out as thoroughly as it could have been, in regards the state of vehicles inherited, and the perilous state of the finances and staffing levels at the Livingston depot. It will be taking some time to sort out where they stand on these issues before making any decision, as I said, due diligence was certainly not carried out properly, or they wouldn't be in this situation.

When McGill's took over, I was told by a driver who worked there, that someone from the new management told them, " Don't worry about them across the road, Lothian Country, we'll take care of them, they won't be here much longer". I appreciate that it was said to keep everyone on board, but I think it was ill advised, seeing what we are now seeing.

Lothian have consolidated their position, and now seem to be on a firm footing regarding service provision, but they also have problems with reliability due to road works, mainly in Edinburgh, but also on the A71 at Wilkieston at the moment during the peaks. They will also be open to the problem of driver shortages, but it should not be as big a problem as McGill's are finding, what with better wages, and an increase being negotiated.

In short, McGill's have a massive problem in trying to steady the ship as far as service provision is concerned. The fact that it has been stated that the owners are loaded, doesn't mean that they will throw good money after bad; they are loaded for a reason, and it's not through making bad business decisions. I think they will ultimately keep Bright Bus Tours and Flixbus in Livingston and will reduce service work, but it will be a while off.

 

[DunsBus]

I think people are jumping the gun here. I don't think a withdrawal is on the cards, not at the moment anyway. I think McGill's have been caught out by rushing into the purchase of First's operations. It doesn't look like due diligence was carried out as thoroughly as it could have been, in regards the state of vehicles inherited, and the perilous state of the finances and staffing levels at the Livingston depot. It will be taking some time to sort out where they stand on these issues before making any decision, as I said, due diligence was certainly not carried out properly, or they wouldn't be in this situation.

When McGill's took over, I was told by a driver who worked there, that someone from the new management told them, " Don't worry about them across the road, Lothian Country, we'll take care of them, they won't be here much longer". I appreciate that it was said to keep everyone on board, but I think it was ill advised, seeing what we are now seeing.

Lothian have consolidated their position, and now seem to be on a firm footing regarding service provision, but they also have problems with reliability due to road works, mainly in Edinburgh, but also on the A71 at Wilkieston at the moment during the peaks. They will also be open to the problem of driver shortages, but it should not be as big a problem as McGill's are finding, what with better wages, and an increase being negotiated.

In short, McGill's have a massive problem in trying to steady the ship as far as service provision is concerned. The fact that it has been stated that the owners are loaded, doesn't mean that they will throw good money after bad; they are loaded for a reason, and it's not through making bad business decisions. I think they will ultimately keep Bright Bus Tours and Flixbus in Livingston and will reduce service work, but it will be a while off.

This has to be the most sensible take that I've seen so far on the current situation with McGill's in West Lothian. To paraphrase an oft-misquoted Mark Twain quote: the report of the death of McGill's Eastern Scottish is an exaggeration.

Those who think that Lothian Country will step up to the mark if McGill's were to close Eastern Scottish are, frankly, living in cloud cuckoo land.
Let us just wait and see what happens first.

 

[overthewater]

Its clear as day the X22 and X24 arr and departure Edinburgh are dead most of the time ( not all but mostly) And Lothian has managed to grab most of the passengers going in Edinburgh. I think the next stage will be for Mcgill to pull out of Edinburgh non tour operations. Its not like Barton Corridor where local people us Stagecoach service as the main direct route.

 

[stevenedin]

Its clear as day the X22 and X24 arr and departure Edinburgh are dead most of the time ( not all but mostly) And Lothian has managed to grab most of the passengers going in Edinburgh. I think the next stage will be for Mcgill to pull out of Edinburgh non tour operations. Its not like Barton Corridor where local people us Stagecoach service as the main direct route.

The only problem that causes is that people who are in Corstorphine or Newbridge won’t be able to get a bus to Livingston if they withdraw the X24 unless Lothian bring back the X17 even just to Livingston Centre or St John’s Hospital.

 

[PaulMc7]

Its clear as day the X22 and X24 arr and departure Edinburgh are dead most of the time ( not all but mostly) And Lothian has managed to grab most of the passengers going in Edinburgh. I think the next stage will be for Mcgill to pull out of Edinburgh non tour operations. Its not like Barton Corridor where local people us Stagecoach service as the main direct route.

I think this would be the smart tactic in order to prioritise building up trust in West Lothian by using more driver duties in that region, as long as services operated in a way that allowed for connections to the X38 somewhere so there is still a McGill's option into Edinburgh. I also think you'd probably need to up the frequency of the X38 to every 20 minutes when possible, and maybe even reintroduce a link to Kirkliston to connect with the X38 there instead of Newbridge etc.