WillPS
Established Member
I guess you didn't buy an additional Norwich - Thetford ticket after all then
I thought that was what was being suggested here? Getting a Birmingham - Wolverhampton single?
I guess you didn't buy an additional Norwich - Thetford ticket after all then
I thought that was what was being suggested here? Getting a Birmingham - Wolverhampton single?
IT ISN'T VALID FOR BREAK OF JOURNEY, END OF. I can't believe people are suggesting that just because it is unlikely you won't get caught, the risk is somewhat mitigated. People are suggesting and providing examples of OBTAINING SERVICES BY DECEPTION, aka Fraud. You represent you are travelling between the two points purchased, accept the T and Cs. The deception is knowing that you do not intend to use this ticket as legally required, and you intend to do this to make a monetary gain.
If you do choose to deliberately misuse this ticket, entirely up to you. If you moan when/if you get caught, then only one person to blame for that, you.
If the tickets are withdrawn from sale in the future because of reported misuse, again only got yourself to blame.
Whether you get caught or not is besides the point. It is wrong and the fact you know it is wrong, and still want to misuse the ticket shows exactly what is up with society.
Really?
You think people would expect to pay £100 more to get off a stop early? Even though getting off a stop late would cost something like £5?
It doesn't matter here, he knows the rules, but I don't believe for a second that any court would believe normal customers would be expecting such a large payment for not using a service that they had already paid for.
I hope I am correct in interpreting Jonny's question to bewhat happens if one person has two valid tickets for a journey, one for a longer journey with a no-break clause, and one for a shorter journey that allows a break, over the end of such a journey?
what happens if one person has two valid tickets for different portions of a journey, one for a longer portion with a no-break clause, and one for a shorter portion that allows a break, overlapping with the first portion?
Then, megatrain.com Condition 20 confirms that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage apply to megatrain travel unless amended by the megatrain.com Conditions.19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.
For the purposes of this Condition, a leisure travel pass means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.
The remainder of the megatrain.com Terms & Conditions are silent on the subject of combining a Megatrain ticket with another railway ticket on one journey. It therefore seems to me that combining is allowed in accordance with NRCoC Condition 19.megabus.com megabusplus.com megatrain.com Terms & Conditions
Reservation terms and conditions
20. Rail travel is undertaken under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage as amended by these terms. A copy can be obtained from staffed train stations or from www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/.
A combination of overlapping tickets saves me £13.80.National Fares Manual NFM 09 said:Leeds - Bangor Off-Peak Return £63.80 Restriction 8A
Leeds - Frodsham Off-Peak Return £22.20 Restriction 2M
Newton-le-Willows - Bangor Off-Peak Return £27.80 Restriction 8A
Total £50.00
Restriction 8A: Valid on any train. No break of outward journey.
Restriction 2M: Outward not to arrive Manchester Stns M-F before 0930. Return by any train.
Leaving a station is a necessary, but not always sufficient, element of breaking a journey. Condition 16 does not define when starting or ending a journey at an intermediate station may be restricted. It may be that the train companies assume that starting or ending a journey carries the same restrictions as breaking a journey. A case such as Butts would test whether that is a valid assumption. My view is that a statement in the megatrain.com FAQs is unlikely to be given more weight than a right clearly set out in the NRCoC Conditions.National Rail Conditions of Carriage said:16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Companys or Rail Service Companys stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Companys staff.
let alone immediately checking tickets of people getting off trains, at Wolverhampton or Birmingham New Street.
This is in the FAQs section on the website:
I hope I am correct in interpreting Jonny's question to be
Firstly, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) allow a passenger to use more than one ticket for one journey.
Then, megatrain.com Condition 20 confirms that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage apply to megatrain travel unless amended by the megatrain.com Conditions.
The remainder of the megatrain.com Terms & Conditions are silent on the subject of combining a Megatrain ticket with another railway ticket on one journey. It therefore seems to me that combining is allowed in accordance with NRCoC Condition 19.
Due to the perverse nature of the British railway fares system, it has become quite common for passengers to buy a combination of overlapping tickets for one journey. For example, when I travel to north Wales, I find that two overlapping tickets give me the best walk-on price.A combination of overlapping tickets saves me £13.80.
To attempt to answer Jonny's question, I can see no reason why the same approach cannot be used where one or more of the tickets forming the combination is a megatrain.com ticket.
To this extent, I agree with All Line Rover that the current megatrain.com Terms & Conditions do not prohibit starting/finishing short. Where I disagree with All Line Rover is in his assumption that Butts' proposal to travel from Edinburgh to Sandwell & Dudley involves a break of journey. It does not.
Leaving a station is a necessary, but not always sufficient, element of breaking a journey. Condition 16 does not define when starting or ending a journey at an intermediate station may be restricted. It may be that the train companies assume that starting or ending a journey carries the same restrictions as breaking a journey. A case such as Butts would test whether that is a valid assumption. My view is that a statement in the megatrain.com FAQs is unlikely to be given more weight than a right clearly set out in the NRCoC Conditions.
In conclusion, my opinion is that it is more likely than not that the combination of tickets proposed by Butts forms a valid combination for an Edinburgh - Sandwell & Dudley journey. I recognise that this is a minority opinion among contributors to this thread.
This is an absolute debacle and needs to be clarified by Megatrain, in all honesty!
I still advise against the OP alighting early, more out of concern that he'll end up in a mess rather than anything else!
IIRC, there used to be regular reports of people trying to get off WSMR trains at Wolverhampton being told to get back on by the Virgin platform staff as it was pick up only.Has anyone ever heard of such a thing, ever?
1. You are potentially denying someone wanting to travel to the destination station a cheaper ticket. APs and Megatrain are quota controlled, based (in this case) on journeys to Birmingham New St. If the quota of fares to Wolverhampton is sold out or not available that should be that.As a general thought - and this applies to both Megatrain and Advance tickets - I still think that prohibiting a customer from alighting at a station when they are on a ticket that permits passing through that station is a restriction that defies common sense.
In the OP's case (I still don't recommend that the OP alights at WVH without asking the TM first), why would the OP theoretically need to buy a Birmingham to Wolverhampton SOS so as "not to deprive the railways from revenue?" If they simply alighted at Wolverhampton, how would they be depriving the railways from revenue since the ticket allows them to pass through that station?
In my opinion (and it is only an opinion, but a good one at that ), I suspect that Megatrain removed the term restricting a BoJ and starting/finishing short a few months ago - at the time when they lost a court case involving a South West Trains customer who was "caught" finishing short. (And yes, they were actually "caught" since the Megatrain T&C's did at that time prohibit finishing short.)
Since they lost the court case, I suspect they realized that such a restriction could not be realistically enforced. So they just removed it from the T&C's and now keep quiet about it! (I also suspect that the FAQ's have not been updated for years - the Megatrain website is not very well maintained.)
Are you sure it went to court? I thought Yorkie had posted that SWT merely removed the UPFN?
Well whichever way it went, SWT/Megatrain clearly didn't see the restriction as being enforceable, which - in my opinion - is the reason why they removed it.
Perhaps Yorkie would be able to enlighten us on the matter?
They are two very different things. If it went to court, and the court found in the passengers favour then the restriction is legally unenforceable, and this would affect other stop short rules. If however the TOC removed it, it doesn't mean they won't try to enforce it on others. Just because they removed it does not mean they consider it unenforceable - just that perhaps the passenger was too vocal, or the TOC was in a good mood.
Not quite comparable, as Virgin staff could not have charged the passengers any money, and they were on the look-out for this, because if passengers did alight there then that was contrary to the agreement (that was since ruled illegal) that Virgin would have exclusive rights on the London-Wolverhampton flow.IIRC, there used to be regular reports of people trying to get off WSMR trains at Wolverhampton being told to get back on by the Virgin platform staff as it was pick up only.
There is no evidence that I have seen that someone purchasing a Megatrain ticket reduces the quota of AP tickets. All evidence points to the contrary. Can you back up this claim with evidence to support your case?1. You are potentially denying someone wanting to travel to the destination station a cheaper ticket. APs and Megatrain are quota controlled, based (in this case) on journeys to Birmingham New St. If the quota of fares to Wolverhampton is sold out or not available that should be that.
The revenue issue is a red herring. I could give many examples where a combination of tickets and/or starting/finishing short is cheaper, do you believe that in all instances this is "denying revenue"? If so, then denying revenue in itself is not wrong, because in most cases you are permitted to start/finish short! By your logic, I am "denying revenue" to XC by using a York-Shireoaks ticket to only travel as far as Sheffield, but I am perfectly entitled to do that. So what relevance does the "denying revenue" claim have in this context?2. Follows on from 1. To benefit from the cheaper fare, you must travel from and to the stations on your ticket. If you want to travel to an intermediate station you either buy a through ticket at a higher fare, or a ticket from the destination to double back. Either way, the total journey fare is higher so alighting early must be denying revenue.
There is nothing to enlighten that I have not already said.Well whichever way it went, SWT/Megatrain clearly didn't see the restriction as being enforceable, which - in my opinion - is the reason why they removed it.
Perhaps Yorkie would be able to enlighten us on the matter?
There is no evidence that I have seen that someone purchasing a Megatrain ticket reduces the quota of AP tickets. All evidence points to the contrary. Can you back up this claim with evidence to support your case?
In that case where on earth does the claim that people are being deprived of cheap tickets by the OP?!I don't think snail was claiming this - only that both types of ticket are quota controlled (two quite separate quotas).
In that case where on earth does the claim that people are being deprived of cheap tickets by the OP?!
Other than in the sense that, by definition, cheap tickets are quota controlled and any time you buy one it could be argued (by that logic) you are "depriving" someone else!
This extreme hypothetical hyperbole does not help the OP, nor does it assist us in determining what is/isn't valid, nor the consequences if it is not valid.
Exactly so. I've had instances in the past - before the requirements on starting short were tightened up - where AP tickets to London had sold out from Wigan and Preston but were still available from Lancaster, so I bought the Lancaster one and got on at Wigan. That must come out of the Lancaster quota, thus denying a genuine Lancaster traveller the opportunity to buy that ticket. It is (or was) bending not breaking the rules, but has since been prohibited though questions remain about its common logic or enforceability.In that case where on earth does the claim that people are being deprived of cheap tickets by the OP?!
Other than in the sense that, by definition, cheap tickets are quota controlled and any time you buy one it could be argued (by that logic) you are "depriving" someone else!
That is a whole new topic, so if anyone wants to discuss that, please feel free to start a new topic (though I am likely to copy & paste what I said in the last topic on the subject, and the topic before that... )....maybe we should start with rail fares and just charge a standard fare based on distance travelled to everyone regardless of age, creed etc etc....
I don't see the benefit of going on about revenue. If I get a York to Shireoaks, and only use it York to Sheffield, I could be seen as depriving XC of revenue, and giving EC and Northern extra revenue. My answer to that would be "and...? so what...?"
Revenue does not determine validity. T&Cs do. Some T&Cs are enforceable, some - arguably - may not be. Some may be deemed unfair. FAQs do not form the terms of the contract.
The revenue argument is used to justify a moral argument that the OP is doing something wrong. People can make up their own minds, but if the OP is doing something wrong, it is because the T&Cs possibly do not permit it, not because of revenue reasons.
If revenue - alone - determined right or wrong, then many legitimate perfectly valid ticket combinations would be considered 'wrong', and that is a suggestion I will strongly oppose.
Except that "abuse" has lead to exactly the opposite of that.I think you misunderstood my post. I agree that the ticket and combination may well be valid. However, as well all know, using tickets and "bending the rules" may be perfectly legal and effective way to save money. But we've all seen examples of TnCs being changed, splits and permitted routes removed, and rovers increase in price because of little tricks that people have used them for in the past.
In all cases the railway industry amends things to maximise revenue, and to remove opportunities from the frugally-minded.
If people "abuse" (can't think of a better word, sorry!) the Megatrain scheme, it will probably become dearer, or the TnCs tightened, or it will be removed altogether.
I suspect you can thank the clever clogs who bend the rules by buying two tickets to beat restrictions to London for this. Well done lads....not.
Fine, but don't be surprised if Savers are more and more restricted to the disadvantage of legitimate users.
Although Megatrain is a promotional scheme, I can't imagine Virgin withdrawing it because they would get no benefit out of doing so.
I appreciate that Megatrain don't want their tickets to be used by commuters for short distance journeys - and I accept this - but I do find it slightly baffling that customers can buy a ticket from Edinburgh to Birmingham, but not Edinburgh to Wolverhampton (or even Crewe/Wigan). In my experience, services with Megatrain tickets between Scotland and Preston/Birmingham are always very, very quiet (much less than 20% full).
Offering a few extra Megatrain tickets on these services would do no harm, surely? Even if customers are only pay a couple of quid, Virgin are filling up their trains and will hopefully get high customer satisfaction levels, encouraging customers to travel on other - more expensive - services.
I'd also point out that no one has shown me a term in the Megatrain T&C's that obviously prohibits finishing short, so I'm not sure why people are trying to come up with all these creative ways of getting round a restriction that doesn't appear to exist! (For the time being...)