Mersey-Dee the future of the curve formerly known as Halton

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jones_bangor

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I suspect the Cambrian and HOW have sucked up anything that the Welsh Govt will give before the new franchise in 2018. There won't be any Additional north to south trains and if some sources are to be believed Gerald will lose its first dinner and become the Manchester club train. The curve will be one for the new franchise.
Pure speculation. There is no way that WG will divert Gerald to Chester - Manchester commuter services!!

What those poor souls will get is 4 / 5 Mk 2s with a 67 at each end, the lack of foresight in all this is unbelievable (disposing of the ex Gerald Mk 2s).
 
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OxtedL

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My personal wish would be for Liverpool to Llandudno stopping at LSP Runcorn Chester and along the coast. What do more knowledgable members think of this ever happening?
Chester to Llandudno already gets a fairly intensive service - do you feel it needs more?
 

merlodlliw

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I suspect the Cambrian and HOW have sucked up anything that the Welsh Govt will give before the new franchise in 2018. There won't be any Additional north to south trains and if some sources are to be believed Gerald will lose its first dinner and become the Manchester club train. The curve will be one for the new franchise.
My opinion for what its worth,Gerald will continue as WG open Access, but loose
first/dinner,the train was put on for Political reasons,having said that,the Minister is no fool,many are now pointing out the "One Wales" agreement also states improved services East/West, which the past two WG Rail Ministers had forgotten,the Wrexham redouble,now the Saltney/Rossett redouble was signed off without a thought on East/West traffic requirements, ironically the WG Ministers task force,according to reliable sources will recommend extra Wrexham services to the North West,which can not be delivered now.
What those poor souls will get is 4 / 5 Mk 2s with a 67 at each end, the lack of foresight in all this is unbelievable (disposing of the ex Gerald Mk 2s).
The ATW mark 2s were bought in for extra services forseen by the ATW CEO,who got sacked for buying them by the main board.
now they are gone,after years of decaying at Canton.
But we must not forget "There is a spare Gerald with Mark3s" laid up at Canton, also rarely used, perhaps the spare set will now see some life,before the hire contract runs out.
 

Gareth Marston

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Pure speculation. There is no way that WG will divert Gerald to Chester - Manchester commuter services!!

What those poor souls will get is 4 / 5 Mk 2s with a 67 at each end, the lack of foresight in all this is unbelievable (disposing of the ex Gerald Mk 2s).
Maybe for Gerald but there's no way they can find an extra 5 DMU's to run north to south as hourly in time for the redouble being done.
 

merlodlliw

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My opinion for what its worth,Gerald will continue as WG open Access, but loose
first/dinner,the train was put on for Political reasons,having said that,the Minister is no fool,many are now pointing out the "One Wales" agreement and National Transport Plan also states improved services East/West, which the past two WG Rail Ministers had forgotten,the Wrexham redouble,now the Saltney/Rossett redouble was signed off without a thought on East/West traffic requirements, ironically the WG Ministers task force,according to reliable sources will recommend extra Wrexham services to the North West,which can not be delivered now.

The ATW mark 2s were bought in for extra services forseen by the ATW CEO,who got sacked for buying them by the main board.
now they are gone,after years of decaying at Canton.
But we must not forget "There is a spare Gerald with Mark3s" laid up at Canton, also rarely used, perhaps the spare set will now see some life,before the hire contract runs out.
Maybe for Gerald but there's no way they can find an extra 5 DMU's to run north to south as hourly in time for the redouble being done.
The hourly service via Wrexham,was one of the considerations in using redundant HSTs from South Wales,you are correct there is no was any dmus will be found for the Saltney/Rossett redouble official opening May 2015,this is the same date as the Cambrian hourly s starting.
 

Gareth Marston

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The hourly service via Wrexham,was one of the considerations in using redundant HSTs from South Wales,you are correct there is no was any dmus will be found for the Saltney/Rossett redouble official opening May 2015,this is the same date as the Cambrian hourly s starting.
Yes any flex that was possible in ATW will have been taken up by the Mid Wales schemes, last improvements will see until Swansea Wires and new franchise/CP6 effecting Wales.
 

ivanhoe

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Chester to Llandudno already gets a fairly intensive service - do you feel it needs more?
You raise a very good point. A Liverpool North Wales route ,although desirable, would have to be at the expense of other trains. If it doesn't go to Llandudno, then is Bangor a better bet? Is there a market? The M56/M53 plus the A55 is the real competitor for any such route. Has the passing of time made the need for direct Liverpool North Wales Coast routes less attractive and should scarce resources be channelled into the electrification of the Wrexham route to Bidston? Tough call but I would appreciate the thoughts of North Walians on this issue.
 

Spagnoletti

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Sources close to NR have told me the planning work has already started and the Welsh Assembly are funding it to give North Wales better access to Liverpool Airport.
 

Class 170101

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Oxted is correct, why does it need to be twin track? What sort of train spec are you expecting that is going to need that sort of infrastructure? Given its length and the likelihood of the approach control the chances of actually achieving much more is slim anyway. There is only finite money for these schemes and it is about getting the best value whilst delivering what it needs to. Nothing is gold plated anymore.
I would suggest that though gold plating is excessive that provision is made that it can be doubled with ease in future.
The railway is well known for not allowing for future provision with costs then skyrocketing when it is required at a later date.
 

Wavertreelad

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You raise a very good point. A Liverpool North Wales route ,although desirable, would have to be at the expense of other trains. If it doesn't go to Llandudno, then is Bangor a better bet? Is there a market? The M56/M53 plus the A55 is the real competitor for any such route. Has the passing of time made the need for direct Liverpool North Wales Coast routes less attractive and should scarce resources be channelled into the electrification of the Wrexham route to Bidston? Tough call but I would appreciate the thoughts of North Walians on this issue.
The Greater Liverpool Authority is taking over planning for strategic transport schemes from Merseytravel. The authority now includes Wirral, Halton. Sefton Knowsley, St Helens and of course Liverpool. The recent decision by Merseytravel to fund development plans for the Mersey-Dee curve suggests that this scheme could be developed before Wrexham to Bidston particularly as NR has offered to complete the scheme at a considerably reduced cost to a projected standalone scheme provided it can be completed with other work in the area.

The recent announcement to develop a large residential area at Sealand as well as nearby Corus and ex RAF sites into industrial estates could bring a requirement for better public travel links to the Wirral and Liverpool which could pave the way for electrification of the Bidston - Wrexham route.


http://www.newsnorthwales.co.uk/new...ter-deeside-development-gets-green-light.aspx
 

8H

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This is interesting and makes the abandonment of the Hawarden Bridge triangle and the CLC route into Chester even barmier than it was at the time. All those homes and businesses planned right next to the railway formation to Chester and Manchester one way, and Liverpool and Wrexham in the other. But that is yet another North West sorry saga of rail destruction :roll:
 

merlodlliw

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The Greater Liverpool Authority is taking over planning for strategic transport schemes from Merseytravel. The authority now includes Wirral, Halton. Sefton Knowsley, St Helens and of course Liverpool. The recent decision by Merseytravel to fund development plans for the Mersey-Dee curve suggests that this scheme could be developed before Wrexham to Bidston particularly as NR has offered to complete the scheme at a considerably reduced cost to a projected standalone scheme provided it can be completed with other work in the area.

The recent announcement to develop a large residential area at Sealand as well as nearby Corus and ex RAF sites into industrial estates could bring a requirement for better public travel links to the Wirral and Liverpool which could pave the way for electrification of the Bidston - Wrexham route.

http://www.newsnorthwales.co.uk/new...ter-deeside-development-gets-green-light.aspx
This is the first time NR have to my knowledge offered to reduce costs with other work in the area, the newly devolved Welsh Network Rail, take note while in Saltney,


The railway is well known for not allowing for future provision with costs then skyrocketing when it is required at a later date.
Exactly whats happening in Chester/Wrexham redouble now.
 
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jones_bangor

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The hourly service via Wrexham,was one of the considerations in using redundant HSTs from South Wales,you are correct there is no was any dmus will be found for the Saltney/Rossett redouble official opening May 2015,this is the same date as the Cambrian hourly s starting.
More LHCS on North - South would free up DMUs!!
 

Gareth Marston

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You raise a very good point. A Liverpool North Wales route ,although desirable, would have to be at the expense of other trains. If it doesn't go to Llandudno, then is Bangor a better bet? Is there a market? The M56/M53 plus the A55 is the real competitor for any such route. Has the passing of time made the need for direct Liverpool North Wales Coast routes less attractive and should scarce resources be channelled into the electrification of the Wrexham route to Bidston? Tough call but I would appreciate the thoughts of North Walians on this issue.
According to Victorian Censuses Montgomeryshire was in North Wales so....the trade off will be between Cardiff and Liverpool. The Saltney Jc to Rossetti redouble will also open the possibility of through trains from NorthWest to Wrexham.
 

ivanhoe

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According to Victorian Censuses Montgomeryshire was in North Wales so....the trade off will be between Cardiff and Liverpool. The Saltney Jc to Rossetti redouble will also open the possibility of through trains from NorthWest to Wrexham.[/QU

I have read about migration from North Wales including Montgomery ,and I am convinced the Welsh had a great input on both the culture and accent from the early 19th century.
 
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merlodlliw

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More LHCS on North - South would free up DMUs!!
I agree, but the HST idea seems to be losing momentum,175 is clean on the tracks HSTs would need tanks built in,even Gerald with 3.5£Millions spent on its mark3s still dumps all w/c waste on the tracks.
But the HST idea wont occur in 2015,plus Gerald did not free up one DMU on the up run to Cardiff.
 

Wavertreelad

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This is the first time NR have to my knowledge offered to reduce costs with other work in the area, the newly devolved Welsh Network Rail, take note while in Saltney,




Exactly whats happening in Chester/Wrexham redouble now.
OK in comparison - see para 2.5 on first link.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.net/documents/s10894/Halton Curve Outline Design.pdf

this second link is from Cheshire Council.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...zbA1F8rxbjxtMxBXNqWIXxQ&bvm=bv.64542518,d.d2k
 

merlodlliw

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8H

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Excellent digging from Wavertree :D

So let's hope the Wrexham Chester redouble is

OK for capacity
That theMersey Dee route really will be "fastish"
Electrification of Wrexham Bidston happens! and that....
Interchange at Shotton for Western Wirral to and from Chester is hugely improved.

Altogether it might help stop the percentage of motor cars with one person in them and the volume of lorry traffic rolling on the competing roads if rail freight can be redeveloped from Deeside.

Now when is Christmas?
 

merlodlliw

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Excellent digging from Wavertree :D

So let's hope the Wrexham Chester redouble is

OK for capacity
That theMersey Dee route really will be "fastish"
Electrification of Wrexham Bidston happens! and that....
Interchange at Shotton for Western Wirral to and from Chester is hugely improved.

Altogether it might help stop the percentage of motor cars with one person in them and the volume of lorry traffic rolling on the competing roads if rail freight can be redeveloped from Deeside.

Now when is Christmas?
I understand Flintshires Deeside is the 2nd busiest area in Wales for travel to work by car, it is unfortunate the Wrexham redouble,after completion will only allow 3 up & 3 down(6)an hour in place of only 3 trains in total now,this includes freight, so leaves little room for maneuver if two paths are taken for the extra Holyhead/Cardiff service,
 

jones_bangor

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I agree, but the HST idea seems to be losing momentum,175 is clean on the tracks HSTs would need tanks built in,even Gerald with 3.5£Millions spent on its mark3s still dumps all w/c waste on the tracks.
But the HST idea wont occur in 2015,plus Gerald did not free up one DMU on the up run to Cardiff.
Haven't the Chiltern Mk3's got tanks?
 

Gareth Marston

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Yes there is,suppose its due to the Halton connections,I do tend to stray,
The trouble is the one impacts on the other. The Welsh Government have funded the Saltney to Rossett redouble seemingly entirely on the premises of speeding up existing Cardiff to Holyhead trains and allowing their frequency to increase to hourly. what's never been made clear is how this impacts on existing services. Will they replace existing services or be additional to them? I think we'd all agree the case for the Halton Curve will be better if it includes services from north wales but if all the track capacity has been taken by extra Cardiff to Holyhead trains.......
 

Wavertreelad

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Excellent digging from Wavertree :D

So let's hope the Wrexham Chester redouble is

OK for capacity
That theMersey Dee route really will be "fastish"
Electrification of Wrexham Bidston happens! and that....
Interchange at Shotton for Western Wirral to and from Chester is hugely improved.

Altogether it might help stop the percentage of motor cars with one person in them and the volume of lorry traffic rolling on the competing roads if rail freight can be redeveloped from Deeside.

Now when is Christmas?
The only observation I would make is the 2nd link by Cheshire Council was undated, but if you open up the pdf and right click on document properties it appears the pdf was created on the 22nd Aug 2013. This of course does not mean the document dates from this time, just that the version was created on this date although the date does seem to tie in with this press release from the Welsh office.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...rexham-bidston-electrification-is-significant

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Merseytravel had suggested an interchange station in South Wirral on the route adjacent to the M56 motorway to encourage park and ride in Liverpool, although so far I have not found any formal proposals.

Interesting the Bidston / Wrexham line has a Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/WrexhamBidstonAction


the post from 14th August 2013 is perhaps interesting,

"A recent e-mail response I provided, thought it was worth sharing

"Rail investment for the period between 2014 and 2019 known as the HLOS (high level output specification), has already been set by the Department for Transport. This investment is fairly concrete and it is highly unlikely that the government would add Wrexham - Bidston electrification to this at this stage.

The next round of spending after 2019 will be decided in 2015, which is when all local authorities need to push for electrification. This is complicated by the fact that the line runs through 2 English counties and Wales. The Welsh assembly currently sets the timetable and has the biggest say over the line.

It is for this reason that I have chosen to concentrate on lobbying for a half hourly service in the short term. The benefits of which will not only be improved passenger services, but if more passengers use the line because of this new services, it will also improve the business case for electrification.

The case for electrification needs to be made in terms of economic benefits as well as social benefits. So on that basis I'm not sure there would be a case for electrification based on current passenger figures, versus the high cost of electrification.

If you feel strong about this and are keen to make the case for electrification you could write to the Secretary of State for transport Patrick McLoughlin MP"

Secretary of State for Transport
Department for Transport
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR "

All should become clear then by the end of next year?
 

8H

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Let's hope so! It's a genuine opportunity to improve a lot of rail passenger connectivity and timings at reasonable cost.

The Wrexham Bidston users group has some excellent recent historical stuff and a string of good ideas over the years that had they been DfT, and not a user group would have provided an excellent modern service some years ago! I am not involved with the group, so am merely expressing independent admiration for sensible ideas.
 

merlodlliw

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Haven't the Chiltern Mk3's got tanks?
I have no idea about Chilterns Mk 3s, however in time all will have to have tanks,Im sure all new stock have them.

On the Bidston line area there is a momentum building about human waste dumped on the tracks within built up areas, a few letters have appeared in the local press.
 

jones_bangor

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I have no idea about Chilterns Mk 3s, however in time all will have to have tanks,Im sure all new stock have them.

On the Bidston line area there is a momentum building about human waste dumped on the tracks within built up areas, a few letters have appeared in the local press.
A concerted push to get rid of track emptiers would be excellent. Surprised there's no EU directives on this.
 

Wavertreelad

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I have no idea about Chilterns Mk 3s, however in time all will have to have tanks,Im sure all new stock have them.

On the Bidston line area there is a momentum building about human waste dumped on the tracks within built up areas, a few letters have appeared in the local press.
Electrify the line and use some of those train sets without toilets on the route. Problem solved.
 
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