Mersey-Dee the future of the curve formerly known as Halton

[frodshamfella]

Isn't the idea to open this up as a regional service, rather than a stopping one? It shouldn't stop between Runcorn and Chester - the other stops can be served another way.

If both Wrexham and the Coast are deserving of services, we could either see splitting at Chester or multiple frequencies.

In the latter's case, Frodsham could be served by a Wrexham service. But I prefer extending Merseyrail to Helsby and Frodsham.

I live near Frodsham, use the station often, whilst I support the idea of an improved service ( hourly is no enough ) I can see point of not slowing down a service over the Halton Curve, I am also aware of a new Beechwood Station suggested on the curve.

The idea of a Merseyrail extension, I imagine it would have to be from Chester as there are (I understand) issues running through Stanlow from Ellesmere Port due to electric sparks, although giving Ince & Elton where there is quite a bit of housing a worthwhile service would be good.

Frodsham and Helsby has no rail/bus link to Liverpool, so some sort of link to the city is very desirable, as would be able to reach Liverpool Airport, but this would really require a Frodsahm stop on Halton Curve services.

 

[fowler9]

I live near Frodsham, use the station often, whilst I support the idea of an improved service ( hourly is no enough ) I can see point of not slowing down a service over the Halton Curve, I am also aware of a new Beechwood Station suggested on the curve.

The idea of a Merseyrail extension, I imagine it would have to be from Chester as there are (I understand) issues running through Stanlow from Ellesmere Port due to electric sparks, although giving Ince & Elton where there is quite a bit of housing a worthwhile service would be good.

Frodsham and Helsby has no rail/bus link to Liverpool, so some sort of link to the city is very desirable, as would be able to reach Liverpool Airport, but this would really require a Frodsahm stop on Halton Curve services.

Yeah to be fair my local station has only in recent history got a half hourly service and oddly enough apart from in the rush hours this is mostly during the day when loads of people aren't travelling. If my suburb of Liverpool doesn't rate anything more than an hourly service for most of the day I doubt Frodsham does.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The idea of a Merseyrail extension, I imagine it would have to be from Chester as there are (I understand) issues running through Stanlow from Ellesmere Port due to electric sparks, although giving Ince & Elton where there is quite a bit of housing a worthwhile service would be good.
.

I'm curious about this problem with the sparks at Stanlow since as far as I am aware the railway lines pass the south of the refineries on Oil Sites Road and thus well away from the refineries on the banks of the Manchester Ship Canal. Furthermore, going back 50 years ago and more what did British Railways do in the days before diesels on the lines, when in fact the refineries occupied a much larger site than today.

I suspect one of the reasons why Merseyrail was never extended along this line was because the area is in Halton and not in the Merseytravel area. The recent change to include Halton in the Greater Liverpool Authority should mean the scheme will gain a higher priority, especially as Merseytravel is paying for a further study of the of the Mersey - Dee link.

Interestingly I also think this is one of the reasons why Merseyrail will opt for dual voltage stock, as under the old Halton curve name the project would only seem to benefit the local Halton community, whereas the new name implies it is part of a much bigger scheme extending the electrification in the area to Deeside which would improve the business case. When this added to the Bidston - Wrexham route and proposals to eventually electrify with OHLE the routes from Crewe and Manchester to Chester, the chance electrifying with third rail technology is surely reduced?

 

[merlodlliw]

I recall the "Shell" objection,money was on the table to third rail Hooton to Helsby and Hooton to Chester.
Then the shell site was huge employing thousands, Shell objected on the grounds that third rail arcs & sparks could have a disastrous effect should a leak occur,the fume being heavier than air etc etc.

Now the site is owned by an Indian Company & much smaller,

 

[frodshamfella]

Yeah to be fair my local station has only in recent history got a half hourly service and oddly enough apart from in the rush hours this is mostly during the day when loads of people aren't travelling. If my suburb of Liverpool doesn't rate anything more than an hourly service for most of the day I doubt Frodsham does.

Not so sure about that, Frodsham usage numbers is growing, and covers a wide area (surrounding villages, such as where I live). You can expect to stand on the Arriva Trains Wales service that call there at anytime of the day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm curious about this problem with the sparks at Stanlow since as far as I am aware the railway lines pass the south of the refineries on Oil Sites Road and thus well away from the refineries on the banks of the Manchester Ship Canal. Furthermore, going back 50 years ago and more what did British Railways do in the days before diesels on the lines, when in fact the refineries occupied a much larger site than today.

I suspect one of the reasons why Merseyrail was never extended along this line was because the area is in Halton and not in the Merseytravel area. The recent change to include Halton in the Greater Liverpool Authority should mean the scheme will gain a higher priority, especially as Merseytravel is paying for a further study of the of the Mersey - Dee link.

Interestingly I also think this is one of the reasons why Merseyrail will opt for dual voltage stock, as under the old Halton curve name the project would only seem to benefit the local Halton community, whereas the new name implies it is part of a much bigger scheme extending the electrification in the area to Deeside which would improve the business case. When this added to the Bidston - Wrexham route and proposals to eventually electrify with OHLE the routes from Crewe and Manchester to Chester, the chance electrifying with third rail technology is surely reduced?

Hi

I think Stanlow area an Ince areas come under Cheshire West and Cheshire, It used to be Ellesmere Port & Neston local authority, but that got swallowed up by the new authority. Halton is really Widnes and Runcorn regions. Like you im curious about the "sparks " thing if this is the real reason.

Cheers

Carl

 

[merlodlliw]

Hi

I think Stanlow area an Ince areas come under Cheshire West and Cheshire, It used to be Ellesmere Port & Neston local authority, but that got swallowed up by the new authority. Halton is really Widnes and Runcorn regions. Like you im curious about the "sparks " thing if this is the real reason.

Cheers

Carl

[/QUOTE]

Sparks was the reason given to the public in about 1990, over two decades ago,before the electrics got into Chester in 93.
Has to other reasons,they are probably classified,some pipelines go under the railway from Stanlow to Airports,some we know of,some we don't.
You are correct,Cheshire West & Chester is the unitary authority which took over. Halton as you say is Widnes/Runcorn which did a breakaway
from big brother.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Sparks was the reason given to the public in about 1990, over two decades ago,before the electrics got into Chester in 93.
Has to other reasons,they are probably classified,some pipelines go under the railway from Stanlow to Airports,some we know of,some we don't.
You are correct,Cheshire West & Chester is the unitary authority which took over. Halton as you say is Widnes/Runcorn which did a breakaway
from big brother.

Apologises, I agree Halton is and always has been in Cheshire West, nevertheless with Halton now part of the Greater Liverpool Authority and Merseytravel already serving Chester the line is potentially a sandwich in between two electrified routes in the longer term so it probably does make sense to electrify the route, assuming all other criteria can be met.

It should also be noted that Peel Ports owners of the Manchester Ship Canal aim to develop the site of the former Bridgewater Paper Mill on the banks of the canal at Ellesmere Port with rail connections as well as other sites at Ince Park and Stanlow which will eventually boost employment in the area and the need to enhance public transport.

The Shell objection does seem strange as all the sites on the canal banks allow ignition engine vehicles on to their sites, but they are restricted to parking in certain locations within the facility, and I can speak from personal experience. Yes there are underground pipelines to Manchester Airport, Grangemouth, and Tranmere Oil Terminal at Birkenhead as well as a disused pipeline to near Angelsey amongst other places. Furthermore, before Oil Sites Road was blocked to prevent through traffic is was a very busy public highway and shortcut so there must have been other reasons. It will be interesting to see if the new owners Essar Group make objections should electrification of the route be planned in the future.

 

[fowler9]

Understand what you are saying Frodshamfella but can you expect to stand because of all the people getting on at Frodsham or because the train is already very busy?

 

[frodshamfella]

Understand what you are saying Frodshamfella but can you expect to stand because of all the people getting on at Frodsham or because the train is already very busy?

Both really, with often only two carriages, and the service running normally from Llandudno to Manchester, it doesnt take much.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apologises, I agree Halton is and always has been in Cheshire West, nevertheless with Halton now part of the Greater Liverpool Authority and Merseytravel already serving Chester the line is potentially a sandwich in between two electrified routes in the longer term so it probably does make sense to electrify the route, assuming all other criteria can be met.

It should also be noted that Peel Ports owners of the Manchester Ship Canal aim to develop the site of the former Bridgewater Paper Mill on the banks of the canal at Ellesmere Port with rail connections as well as other sites at Ince Park and Stanlow which will eventually boost employment in the area and the need to enhance public transport.

The Shell objection does seem strange as all the sites on the canal banks allow ignition engine vehicles on to their sites, but they are restricted to parking in certain locations within the facility, and I can speak from personal experience. Yes there are underground pipelines to Manchester Airport, Grangemouth, and Tranmere Oil Terminal at Birkenhead as well as a disused pipeline to near Angelsey amongst other places. Furthermore, before Oil Sites Road was blocked to prevent through traffic is was a very busy public highway and shortcut so there must have been other reasons. It will be interesting to see if the new owners Essar Group make objections should electrification of the route be planned in the future.

So I guess the moral for this isolated line at the moment is to hand in there, and with a bit of luck improvements could happen from what you are describing

 

[merlodlliw]

The Shell objection does seem strange as all the sites on the canal banks allow ignition engine vehicles on to their sites, but they are restricted to parking in certain locations within the facility, and I can speak from personal experience. Yes there are underground pipelines to Manchester Airport, Grangemouth, and Tranmere Oil Terminal at Birkenhead as well as a disused pipeline to near Angelsey amongst other places. Furthermore, before Oil Sites Road was blocked to prevent through traffic is was a very busy public highway and shortcut so there must have been other reasons. It will be interesting to see if the new owners Essar Group make objections should electrification of the route be planned in the future.

I am sure we will never learn all the reasons for the refusal of 3rd rail,the sparks idea perhaps was well thought out,Perhaps im wrong but I also thought some London airports had a pipeline from Stanlow,and some other reasons will never be discussed.
Interesting point you make about petrol cars,I presume diesel trains & cars being compression ignition are less risky?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure we will never learn all the reasons for the refusal of 3rd rail,the sparks idea perhaps was well thought out,Perhaps im wrong but I also thought some London airports had a pipeline from Stanlow and some other reasons will never be discussed.

For strategic and other reasons, many similar infrastructural items are governed by a very high security rating.

 

[pablo]

There are strategic undergound storage areas in the country around Stanlow, all connected. It started with the Pluto pipeline; and where did that end up? I've worked at Hamble also and that feeds Heathrow & others. so imagination rules, OK?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I am pretty sure that the Shell objections were related to a plant that was closely sited to the line but has since been closed.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I am sure we will never learn all the reasons for the refusal of 3rd rail,the sparks idea perhaps was well thought out,Perhaps im wrong but I also thought some London airports had a pipeline from Stanlow,and some other reasons will never be discussed.
Interesting point you make about petrol cars,I presume diesel trains & cars being compression ignition are less risky?

I am fairly sure there are pipelines between most of the major refineries as the production of all fuels depends on having a continuous supply of product. Trying to achieve this by road/rail would probably be too unreliable and also be a huge security risk to the economy, remember the pickets outside the refineries a few years back? I would imagine there is a pipeline to all the major airports, not necessarily directly from Stanlow but via another site. Most of the major oil companies have sold off their UK refineries because of the huge cost of running and maintaining them which is why so many are now smaller or have been closed.

Yes diesel engine cars/vans and trains because of the compression design of the engine are less prone to a spark so for example at Tranmere Oil terminal a visitor in a petrol car or van will have to park up at the gate and walk the quarter of mile at least along the roadway/jetty to the tanker moored in the Mersey, whereas a diesel vehicle is allowed a lot nearer. The same applies at Stanlow, although there is no road access to the three berths on the island so you have to cross the canal in a small diesel powered boat and then walk. Tranmere and Stanlow Island are not the most pleasant places to have to visit in bad weather as it is all very exposed!

 

[merlodlliw]

Many thanks for the reply, my neighbor worked at the fertilizer plant next door at Inch, also a very "Safety conscious" site for obvious reasons.

Long gone are the days when "Shell" served dinner to almost everyone in Ellesmere Port & Dist

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am fairly sure there are pipelines between most of the major refineries as the production of all fuels depends on having a continuous supply of product.

I think people were surprised to find that the Buncefield oil depot in Hemel Hempstead supplied 30% of Heathrow's fuel.
Fuel at Heathrow had to be rationed when it blew up in 2005.
Langley oil terminal near Heathrow, for a long time a major destination for rail-borne traffic, was also replaced by a pipeline direct to the airport.

 

[Railman]

The Runcorn - Chester service would have survived I think if it could have lasted a couple of years during the late 60s. Not long after it was removed the town of Runcorn was made a new town for Liverpool overspill, and the population rose dramatically. The Road bridge across the mersey is now operating way above its planned use, and a second crossing is under construction. This will in turn mean both road bridges will become Toll roads in the near future. The case for the Halton chord is about to become even more exasperating. The cost for the use of cars for travel to Liverpool from Cheshire will rise overnight. Everybody knows there is a need now for the service, but no-one seems to be taking into account the big change to road use that's about to happen.
The Chester Helsby Frodsham Runcorn LSP Lime street service is a must, because the situation is about far more than Chester-Liverpool timmings. The catchment area of the new service is far more important.
The line should be double track from the start as it will allow trains to be held awaiting pathing issues at either end, either by design or just regulating for late running etc. without fouling the main lines, or the reverse service to pass if required.
The pressure for the work to be done must be kept up by outside parties because there is NOTHING in it for Network rail, they will only have a bigger maintenance workload and more trains to get through a congested network. So expect NO assistance there. Remember passenger trains dont pay! but that doesnt mean we should not have a service!

 

[8H]

You are absolutely correct on several issues here. The big one though is that it is no good just having a resignalled single track from Frodsham to Runcorn with low speed services and uncompetitive times to carry the sole burden of competing with the road traffic between the Merseyside, Wirral conurbations and the Cheshire and North Wales towns.

 

[The Planner]

I'll ask again, just how intensive a service is the curve getting to justify double tracking? The comment about it having nothing in it for NR is ridiculous, it is about providing a value for money output that satisfies the demand.

 

[Railman]

I think it must be a regular hourly service, to be any use at all between Chester and Liverpool. with ability to increase at peak times. This is the core route and if the trains carry on to llandudno or Wrexham is for someone else to determine, possibly alternating each hour. If Welsh assembly money is wanted then the through trains would have to be a selling point.
My point about NRail is they have put about widely differing prices for the work, over the years, and have also quoted farcical figures for the upkeep of the branch as it is. They have no interest at all in providing cheap extra rail infrastructure. The geometry of the line is basically fixed and apart from minor alignment/cant adjustment speed improvements are limited, modern traction aside. Why cant they supply the track from second hand materials, they made a big thing about a recycling centre to recover track components last year. The S&C would have to be new at the Halton end, but the Frodsham end should be available from recovered units. Also you have to be carefull of them saying thy need a new signalling scheme on the back of any proposal, when all you want is the original putting back, and in many cases the diagrams still exist, because as a cost saving they were never recovered in the first p[lace. If NR is to resignal Halton junction then thats up to them but the facillity to have the branch should be mandated.
Low cost/quick options will not be offered, or even looked in to, why would they, the price for the work is the price they say thats my point.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I think it must be a regular hourly service, to be any use at all between Chester and Liverpool. with ability to increase at peak times. This is the core route and if the trains carry on to llandudno or Wrexham is for someone else to determine, possibly alternating each hour. If Welsh assembly money is wanted then the through trains would have to be a selling point.
My point about NRail is they have put about widely differing prices for the work, over the years, and have also quoted farcical figures for the upkeep of the branch as it is. They have no interest at all in providing cheap extra rail infrastructure. The geometry of the line is basically fixed and apart from minor alignment/cant adjustment speed improvements are limited, modern traction aside. Why cant they supply the track from second hand materials, they made a big thing about a recycling centre to recover track components last year. The S&C would have to be new at the Halton end, but the Frodsham end should be available from recovered units. Also you have to be carefull of them saying thy need a new signalling scheme on the back of any proposal, when all you want is the original putting back, and in many cases the diagrams still exist, because as a cost saving they were never recovered in the first p[lace. If NR is to resignal Halton junction then thats up to them but the facillity to have the branch should be mandated.
Low cost/quick options will not be offered, or even looked in to, why would they, the price for the work is the price they say thats my point.

If I remember correctly NR had previously offered 16 million for the job for the job but now reduced this to 10 million provided the work is done as part the Weaver Junction to Liverpool re-signalling. It seems to be common sense prevailing, the only argument would seem to be if this is value for money? The Olive Mount Chord cost about 10 million I recall.

 

[The Planner]

So we are talking 1tph each way? unless that is ridiculously timetabled there is no way that requires twin tracking over such a short distance. It has been factored into Weaver - Wavertree re-signalling from what I have seen of preliminary scheme plans but only as a single chord.

 

[8H]

If you reckon 1 track works OK then fair enough, just wary about rail under specification as the separate but connected Wrexham double tracking reduction debate may show. There is no such prudence with road schemes of course, the Mersey crossings at Runcorn where two are needed, and across the Severn too!

 

[The Planner]

30 years difference between the openings of the Severn crossings and the second Mersey crossing at Runcorn hasnt even seen a spade in the ground 50 years after the original. In that timescale you could well have a high speed line to Liverpool.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Just an untested and perhaps silly idea, assuming the route from the curve to Ellesmere Port was electrified with OHLE and a 313 with pantograph lowered could negotiate the Liverpool loop. Run a service every 15/30 minutes from Lime Street via Runcorn, to Ellesmere Port and back to Lime Street low level, replacing the existing Ellesmere Port service. The displaced 507/508s could then be used to strengthen existing services. The hire of surplus 313's could be relatively cheap, which would the ideal for the service whilst it built up passenger numbers which might be easier to do with a more frequent service. Politically it also means that Halton and West Cheshire gain from the scheme which in longer terms is going to appeal to the voting public.

 

[Railman]

Remember the Runcorn bridge had to altered to dual carriageway to meet demand some years ago, and it was said then the only option to increase capacity was to build a second bridge. As always these mega expensive schemes take forever to get finance, but the continued increase in road use has forced the issue.
An hourly service would obviously fit on a single line, but the ability to always be able to clear the main line, by putting the new service straight on the branch, at either end whenever it turns up, would be a big bonus to all concerned. there is little scope to have it standing at Halton awaiting a clear run, or at Frodsham when the Manchester - Chester service goes up to 2tph. not to mention any additional peak hour traffic or diversionary paths.
Looking at the local rail passenger situation, which TOC would run this service Chester-Lime Street? Totally within Northern territory at present and how many paths are available Halton - Lime Street?? Would there be any units to run it by 2016?

 

[Gareth]

It'd be Northern probably, assuming Chester was the penultimate station. Any extension into North Wales may see ATW running it.

Personally, I foresee an extension of the Blackpool North to Liverpool South Parkway service. The only drawback I can see is that Blackpool-Liverpool would no longer be able to go over to electric operation, unless/until the stretch between the curve and Chester gets wires.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Latest news..

http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/north-west/115720-merseytravel-unveils-long-term-priorities

 

[WatcherZero]

This is the document the news story is refering to.

http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.ne...rpool City Region Long Term Rail Strategy.pdf

Also apparently LCR, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and the North East Combined Authorities have each contributed £20k into a study called Super Connected Cities into east-west rail links improvements in anticipation of HS2.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

http://www.runcornandwidnesweeklyne...s/rail-boost-listed-three-decade-plan-7196271
This is the article from this week's Runcorn Weekly News.