Merseyrail buffer stops at Kirkby, Ormskirk and Ellesmere Port

[Gathursty]

Why is there a through line at Ellesmere Port but buffer stops at Ormskirk and Kirkby?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect at Ormskirk and Kirkby it was to simplify signalling. I don't know about Ellesmere Port, though.

 

[PHILIPE]

It may be a legacy of past freight trains. There are 2 Weedkillers that have a through path although these are only seasonal.

 

[30907]

I suspect at Ormskirk and Kirkby it was to simplify signalling. I don't know about Ellesmere Port, though.

Years since I was last there but:
there is still a connection to the docks West of the station requiring access through the northbound platform, which is the principal one (car park side....). The layout was, I would guess, unaltered at electrification apart from replacing shunt signals with running signals, and it is (was very recently?) still locally controlled.
Also, was there not some possibility of extending electrification East at one time?

 

[A0wen]

Years since I was last there but:
there is still a connection to the docks West of the station requiring access through the northbound platform, which is the principal one (car park side....). The layout was, I would guess, unaltered at electrification apart from replacing shunt signals with running signals, and it is (was very recently?) still locally controlled.
Also, was there not some possibility of extending electrification East at one time?

Isn't the problem with electrification eastwards the proximity of the oil refinery?

The electrification to Ellesmere was much later than Kirkby and Ormskirk - perhaps BR took a different view than they did in the 70s?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Ormskirk and Kirkby have buffer stops so two trains can operate (one in each platform) at the same time, as the platform is essentially, just one long through one. Ellsemere port is a pair of platforms, so no need for buffer stops, as an overrun isn't going to cause much, if any, damage. Unless it overran all the way to Helsby!

 

[Elecman]

Plus at Kirkby there is a rather large lump of concrete in the way as well, and at Ormskirk the lines have been split between the buffers

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Slightly off topic but whilst looking into the above subject came across this little gem.

Ormskirk was a much busier place in 1915

 

[Ianno87]

Hooton-Ellesmere Port wasn't electrifed until c. 1993, so a through Hooton-Helsby DMU operated.

 

[L+Y]

Ormskirk and Kirkby have buffer stops so two trains can operate (one in each platform) at the same time, as the platform is essentially, just one long through one. Ellsemere port is a pair of platforms, so no need for buffer stops, as an overrun isn't going to cause much, if any, damage. Unless it overran all the way to Helsby!

I'm not quite sure that this is it- the Ormskirk buffers went in in June 1970, but electrics continued to use a bay platform up until October 1970, which allowed for the closure of the Preston platform and two train operation without any need for buffers. Signalling simplification is probably the easiest answer here.

This itself followed on an odd arrangement in place from autumn 1969 onwards, when stopping trains began to terminate at Ormskirk rather than Liverpool Exchange. EMUs from Liverpool and DMUs from Preston would be timed to arrive simultaneously into the left and right platforms in the above 1915 photo- and then both would pull out of the station at the same time, the EMU to the north and the DMU to the south. The points at each end were interlocked, so as the DMU crossed onto the Preston bound-line, the EMU could only cross onto the Liverpool bound one.

All very odd- and it doesn't explain why BR put buffers up at Ormskirk whilst at the same time keeping in place a passing loop controlled from Town Green box, that continued to see occasional use for diversions until at least 1974, and possibly later- if anybody has any information about the Ormskirk loop being used later than the mid-70s, I'd be very interested to hear about it.

 

[ji459]

Ormskirk and Kirkby have buffer stops so two trains can operate (one in each platform) at the same time, as the platform is essentially, just one long through one. Ellsemere port is a pair of platforms, so no need for buffer stops, as an overrun isn't going to cause much, if any, damage. Unless it overran all the way to Helsby!

This doesn't seem plausible given that similar situations arise at other stations, yet they don't have buffers. For example, platform 1 at Ashford International is used both by terminating services from Brighton and from Victoria (see the 10:18 from Brighton and the 10:21 from Victoria both occupy platform 1 at the same time), while in Tonbridge platform 1 is used both by terminating services from Strood and Victoria (see the 10:39 from Victoria and the 10:55 from Strood both occupy platform 1 at the same time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having grown up there (from 1986 onwards, moving there age 7) I never, ever saw it used.

 

[yorkie]

This doesn't seem plausible given that similar situations arise at other stations, yet they don't have buffers. For example, platform 1 at Ashford International is used both by terminating services from Brighton and from Victoria (see the 10:18 from Brighton and the 10:21 from Victoria both occupy platform 1 at the same time), while in Tonbridge platform 1 is used both by terminating services from Strood and Victoria (see the 10:39 from Victoria and the 10:55 from Strood both occupy platform 1 at the same time).

Yes, it can be done, but requires more complicated signalling.

The track was simplified for an affordable price that enables the required service to operate.

 

[route101]

I wonder if Merseyrail could be extended to Preston or Wigan , though it would be new third rail !

 

[frodshamfella]

I wonder if Merseyrail could be extended to Preston or Wigan , though it would be new third rail !

Be good if they did, I think there are forward plans.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Although the freight line west of Ellesmere Port station to Manisty Wharf on the Manchester Ship Canal currently has no traffic, it is still extant and available for use.

Hooton to Helsby is a potential diversionary route and is also used very occasionally by special trains. Northern ran through workings a couple of years ago to celebrate the line's 150th anniversary. One of these continued to Lime Street via the Halton curve.

Presumably the lack of through lines at Ormskirk and Kirkby are due to the lack of accessible freight destinations south of those stations.

 

[Bevan Price]

Although the freight line west of Ellesmere Port station to Manisty Wharf on the Manchester Ship Canal currently has no traffic, it is still extant and available for use.

Hooton to Helsby is a potential diversionary route and is also used very occasionally by special trains. Northern ran through workings a couple of years ago to celebrate the line's 150th anniversary. One of these continued to Lime Street via the Halton curve.

Presumably the lack of through lines at Ormskirk and Kirkby are due to the lack of accessible freight destinations south of those stations.

The buffer stops at Kirkby will need to be moved if they ever build the proposed new line to Skelmersdale.

 

[Karl]

Having lived in Preston all my life, Liverpool and Southport are two places I've visited the least despite being on my doorstep. Why of why does the Ormskirk line not run through to Liverpool? And please can we have the Burscough curve reinstated so I can get to Southport? There'd be plenty of custom, I'm sure.

 

[judethegreat]

Reinstate both curves, extend Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge (only short third rail extension) and divert Preston-Ormskirks to Southport? Or alternate between Ormskirk and Southport if Ormskirk folk weren't happy with it..)

Further ahead, with electrification of Wigan-Southport, then Burscough Bridge-Preston, dual voltage units could run Liverpool-Preston direct..

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Buffers at Ellesmere Port might get in the way of the forthcoming E Port to Man Victoria services starting next year...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reinstate both curves, extend Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge (only short third rail extension) and divert Preston-Ormskirks to Southport? Or alternate between Ormskirk and Southport if Ormskirk folk weren't happy with it..)

Further ahead, with electrification of Wigan-Southport, then Burscough Bridge-Preston, dual voltage units could run Liverpool-Preston direct..

My personal view on the most sensible thing to do is to reinstate both Curves, mothball the direct Rufford-Burscough Jn line, and run services as Preston-Burscough Bridge (hourly, one unit), Liverpool-Burscough Bridge (either half hourly or every 15 minutes depending if redoubling was affordable) and the Manchester services as at present. The station is only immediately surrounded by car parks and low-grade industrial units, so a rebuild to add two more platforms, perhaps as two islands, would not be out of the question.

 

[daodao]

My personal view on the most sensible thing to do is to reinstate both Curves, mothball the direct Rufford-Burscough Jn line, and run services as Preston-Burscough Bridge (hourly, one unit), Liverpool-Burscough Bridge (either half hourly or every 15 minutes depending if redoubling was affordable) and the Manchester services as at present. The station is only immediately surrounded by car parks and low-grade industrial units, so a rebuild to add two more platforms, perhaps as two islands, would not be out of the question.

A sensible proposal, but it would inconvenience residents of Ormskirk travelling north if the direct service from Ormskirk to Preston was removed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A sensible proposal, but it would inconvenience residents of Ormskirk travelling north if the direct service from Ormskirk to Preston was removed.

From Ormskirk itself yes, but demand for the service is spread out somewhat, not just from Ormskirk itself (though the large number of students there will provide a fair bit of it) but down the Merseyrail Northern Line probably as far as Old Roan or so. (Much further south and via Kirkby or Lime St will make more sense). None of those people would see any disadvantage for going to Preston, and they would all see better connectivity to Southport (a major local shopping destination for West Lancashire) and Manchester. Additionally Burscough's economy would be boosted massively as it would become a good option to commute to Liverpool by train, while the Preston service would be increased to hourly clockface without requiring a second unit. (This is happening anyway in 2019, but with a second unit and operating through to Blackpool South as per the service pattern in the early 1990s).

Added: An advantage of going that way would be huge cost saving. Rufford loop could be removed and the whole line controlled as "one engine in steam" as far as the junction at Burscough from Preston PSB. The level crossings could be guard operated as some of the more remote Welsh ones are/were.

On balance the effect would be hugely positive.

 

[A0wen]

Burscough seems a really daft place to start terminating services - it's not actually a very big place.

More sensible perhaps would be reinstatement of the curves - electrification to both Southport and Preston and extend the Ormskirk services to Preston or Southport as appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Burscough seems a really daft place to start terminating services - it's not actually a very big place.

It is however an effective connectional hub (and I'm sure it would get bigger if it got a commuter service to Liverpool). Furthermore it is quite heavily used as a "West Lancs Parkway" for those going to Manchester. We need to stop thinking of direct services from everywhere to everywhere and instead coordinate quality connections. Burscough would be an ideal place to do that.

Ever been to Cyffordd Dyfi? Even Mach isn't that big! Nor indeed is Bedwyn. Or Whitehaven. Or Blaenau Ffestiniog! There are plenty of such examples of termini of convenience/connectivity.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My way of dealing with the Ormskirk question would be (I haven't budgeted this btw, it's more of an "ideal world" solution):
1. Extend electrification (DC or AC) from Ormskirk to both Preston and Southport via the southernmost curve, with 2tph running beyond a de-buffered Ormskirk to each destination.
2. Introduce an hourly Preston to Southport service which could also be electric if the northernmost curve was also juiced. Services from Preston to Southport pick up the daytime local calls between Burscough and Meols Kop, allowing the 2tph Manchester services to be sped up.
3. Additionally electrify Southport to Wigan Wallgate (would need to sort the clearance issues at Wallgate to allow through electric services to Manchester).
4. At Kirkby, remove the block and extend electrification to the new Skelmersdale station via Headbolt Lane. If possible, extend all 4tph to Skem. Diesel Kirkby services also diverted to Skelmersdale and possibly boosted to 2tph- retain the direct line to Kirkby for use during disruption, with one diesel service in each peak running direct to Kirkby to maintain existing commuting links and maintain route knowledge for said diversions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New Lane and Bescar Lane are not near anything and have very poor usage (the higher usage in recent years at New Lane is fare avoidance, as there is an evening peak restriction from Manchester to Burscough but not beyond it). Should we not simply close them (and probably Hoscar as well)? It probably costs more to serve them than it would cost to provide a free taxi on demand to Burscough or Southport for anyone living within walking distance (1 mile perhaps?) of one of them. While those visiting Martin Mere probably just take a taxi from Burscough Bridge rather than walk 2 miles up a dangerous country lane with no pavement.

Meols Cop OTOH could really do with being served by all trains.

 

[Loop & Link]

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[Loop & Link]

[deleted again unable to quote post]

 

[61653 HTAFC]

New Lane and Bescar Lane are not near anything and have very poor usage (the higher usage in recent years at New Lane is fare avoidance, as there is an evening peak restriction from Manchester to Burscough but not beyond it). Should we not simply close them (and probably Hoscar as well)? It probably costs more to serve them than it would cost to provide a free taxi on demand to Burscough or Southport for anyone living within walking distance (1 mile perhaps?) of one of them. While those visiting Martin Mere probably just take a taxi from Burscough Bridge rather than walk 2 miles up a dangerous country lane with no pavement.

Meols Cop OTOH could really do with being served by all trains.

Possibly a solution for those three rural basket-cases would be to select one (probably the one in the middle) to retain and upgrade as a "mini-parkway" to serve the villages and hamlets that currently each have their own station for some reason.