Merseyrail Cl507/8 internal refresh research

[8J]

http://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/refurbishment-work-research.aspx

Merseyrail aim to internally refresh the 59 strong fleet of class 507 and 508 EMU's and are putting it out there to the public for things that they would like to change on the interior of the trains.

Here is a link if you would like to give your view. Would aldo be good if you posted your opinions on here to see if they compare or contrast with each others!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks for posting this, I'll submit my thoughts there tomorrow. I only use the Merseyrail system occasionally now but a few years back it was pretty much every day.

It has to be said, though, that I'm not sure what could be done to improve on the present layout, as the seat-window alignment is always going to be hampered by door-pockets. The only thing I'd suggest would be perhaps a couple of longitudinal seats on either side of each door- possibly tip-up, in place of the current single seats or airline-type bays.

As for bins, I was under the impression that this was not an option due to the underground sections in the city centre. Have the regulations on this been relaxed?

 

[507 001]

Is it really ten years since they were refurbed? Good god!
They are in remarkably good nick!

As mentioned above, the only thing that irks me with the internal layout is the window/seat alignment. I was only trying to think the other day whether it was better pre refurb but couldn't remember.
Even so, at least most seats do have a window, even if it's not a full one.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Selective door opening would be a start.
They can be cold/draughty at stations away from the tunnels.

 

[387star]

No new trains then

 

[185]

No new trains then

Not too sure about that. This is an 'interim' refresh. Someone was recruited not too long ago to a very well paid job at ME to procure new trains by producing a tender invitation.

 

[baldyman26]

All seems a bit strange to me, in my opinion the Mersey rail trains internally are in relatively good condition considering some of the other rolling stock around the North West. Spending I presume a few million on the refresh seems strange if the new trains are on the horizon for the end of the decade. In rail terms 6 years is not a massive amount of time, so either the new trains are a lot longer away or the present refurb was not up to standard

 

[dannyandy]

Wonder if the work will be done at kirkdale/birkenhead or elsewhere...

I really dont think there's much wrong with the interiors being honest

 

[8J]

I think that if they are serious about the refresh, then the new trains won't be here for another 10 years at least. It could be a small, low budget refresh to keep them looking smart. There are some dire examples of interior conditions in the Merseyrail fleet, 507010, 507033, 508108 and 508110 spring to mind as being pretty poor.

To be honest, id rather the current fleet stuck around and new technologies created to implement into a new fleet when it becomes available. Not a new fleet that will be as unsuitable for the Liverpool loop as the 507/8s are.

 

[fowler9]

I think they should install an off button for the heating. Those units get hotter than the sun even with the windows open. Aside from that and lining up the seating with the windows which is nigh on impossible I think they are pretty good. There are plenty of other trains on Merseyside that could do with replacing first.

PS A toilet would be nice as well (Preferably in time for our pub crawl this weekend) but that isn't going to happen. Ha ha.

 

[prod_pep]

As JTD says, this will be a low budget refresh with new seat covers, internal repaint and introducing bins. I would love to see passenger door controls but it's unlikely to be fitted so late in the 507/8s' life.

Still, it's great to see some cosmetic improvements in the short term. Most units are looking a bit tired both inside and out IMO. The seat covers are faded and have something of a yellow stain to them - they look disgusting. Paint has frayed around the seating and doors as well.

Externally, most units look terrible and a new livery with higher quality vinyls will be very welcome. Probably the only exceptions here are 507002/008/009/019/024/033/508111/134/140.

 

[Gareth]

Must say I'm a bit disappointed by this. Seems like they're going to put off the new trains as far as they can get away with; which means running the 507/8s into the ground. I worry that Merseyrail may end up with a few years of poor service and reputation as these units start to struggle. Don't get me wrong, the 507/8s are troopers and great for their age (for the most part) but they're not getting any younger. I appreciate other areas of 'Merseyside' currently put up with inferior units but the only significant commuter rail operation other than proper Merseyrail is the 'City Line' services out of Lime Street, most of which will see an improvement of stock once electrification is complete.

Maybe this is a naff idea, so just putting it out there, but what about buying some new stock for one half of Merseyrail and then retaining the better 507/8s for the other. This might stagger the cost of the new stock a bit. I'd probably put the new stock on the Wirral Line half as hopefully they'll be designed to be more adept at going round the tight curves of the loop. The main disadvantage I can see is that two separate orders may turn out more expensive than one big one over the longer term, although one also has to take into account to cost of maintaining ever ageing units.

 

[fowler9]

Must say I'm a bit disappointed by this. Seems like they're going to put off the new trains as far as they can get away with; which means running the 507/8s into the ground. I worry that Merseyrail may end up with a few years of poor service and reputation as these units start to struggle. Don't get me wrong, the 507/8s are troopers and great for their age (for the most part) but they're not getting any younger. I appreciate other areas of 'Merseyside' currently put up with inferior units but the only significant commuter rail operation other than proper Merseyrail is the 'City Line' services out of Lime Street, most of which will see an improvement of stock once electrification is complete.

Maybe this is a naff idea, so just putting it out there, but what about buying some new stock for one half of Merseyrail and then retaining the better 507/8s for the other. This might stagger the cost of the new stock a bit. I'd probably put the new stock on the Wirral Line half as hopefully they'll be designed to be more adept at going round the tight curves of the loop. The main disadvantage I can see is that two separate orders may turn out more expensive than one big one over the longer term, although one also has to take into account to cost of maintaining ever ageing units.

Well I'm sure that the good people of the Wirral who pushed to get their postcode changed from a Liverpool one won't complain if they get new trains first.

 

[Gareth]

Probably not.

The postcode thing is mostly a myth, by the way. The letter change was due to the Royal Mail reallocating the Wirral's main sorting office to be Chester instead of Liverpool. It was all a part of the long term aim to close Liverpool's entirely; something they finally managed to do a couple of years ago, by transferring the remaining 'L' area to Warrington. Liverpool must be by far the largest city in the UK without a head sorting office. It's not even the usual North West/Manchester regionalist stuff that the city has to put up with from everything from the BBC to HS2. Rather, most mid-sized towns seem to have one. Off topic but there you go.

 

[507 001]

@prod pep I agree entirely about the livery. It was never a particularly successful one as it started to look tatty within weeks of it being applied! Bring back the regional rail variant I say!

I don't think that passenger door controls would be a particularly good idea, with T68s we have the option of enabling the doors or opening them, opening them reduces dwell times in the city centre I've found.

 

[fowler9]

Probably not.

The postcode thing is mostly a myth, by the way. The letter change was due to the Royal Mail reallocating the Wirral's main sorting office to be Chester instead of Liverpool. It was all a part of the long term aim to close Liverpool's entirely; something they finally managed to do a couple of years ago, by transferring the remaining 'L' area to Warrington. Liverpool must be by far the largest city in the UK without a head sorting office. It's not even the usual North West/Manchester regionalist stuff that the city has to put up with from everything from the BBC to HS2. Rather, most mid-sized towns seem to have one. Off topic but there you go.

Ha ha, ah well. I think in as regards Royal Mail Liverpool is a victim of being near to Warrington which is better placed on the road network perhaps.

 

[prod_pep]

Livery wise, I hope they elect for something similar to the 508123 prototype. It looked a great deal better than the rather plain livery they went for. Whatever they decide, it needs to be much more weather and vandal resistant than the current offering.

Passenger door controls would greatly reduce draughts at terminal stations. At Southport, you can easily be sat on the train for up to 15 minutes if you miss the service in front, and the draughts are unpleasant in winter.

Off-peak, it's rare for all doors to be used at many stations (especially on the quieter routes like New Brighton and Ellesmere Port) anyway. The 313s received passenger door controls after privatisation and are much the better for it.

 

[8A Rail]

@prod pep I agree entirely about the livery. It was never a particularly successful one as it started to look tatty within weeks of it being applied! Bring back the regional rail variant I say!

And I would agree too. In fact it is the worst livery these units have had - it is so bland and forgettable.

 

[8J]

Article from Liverpool Echo today said new livery and interior features to be unveiled in the coming weeks. The cost of the project is £8.5 million. £5.5 million subsidised by Angel Trains and £3 million from Merseyrail.

The article also did mention that they are being "wrapped" to prevent body corrosion and that it is still undecided whether by the end of the decade, the fleet will be replaced or extensively reworked...

Interesting stuff...

 

[WatcherZero]

Some documents on the process a few months ago, Merseytravel basically blocked the inclusion of a Serco/Abellio logo in the new livery.

 

[8J]

Where were those documens if you could possibly tell please?

 

[baldyman26]

I read the article in the Echo and I have to say it's the first time I've heard about the option of an extensive re-work for the current fleet. Do you think this is a seed being planted ?

If this is an option, how realistic can it be. Would the 507/8's be completely stripped back and rebuilt around the current bodies or is it not that in depth

 

[WatcherZero]

Where were those documens if you could possibly tell please?

Meseytravel committee papers about 4 months ago, nothing more than a paragraph really where in the minutes it says they looked at several potential liveries (not pictured) and chose one which didnt include the operator logo.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I read the article in the Echo and I have to say it's the first time I've heard about the option of an extensive re-work for the current fleet. Do you think this is a seed being planted ?

If this is an option, how realistic can it be. Would the 507/8's be completely stripped back and rebuilt around the current bodies or is it not that in depth

The Echo article is here http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-look-merseyrail-trains-set-6509944

As far as I can see the link to the survey above and on the Merseytravel /Merseyrail website does not appear to be present but interesting I note in the Echo article the paragraph suggesting the 507/508's could be refurbished is NOT in quotation marks whereas some of the points obviously have been quoted from the press release. However, refurbishment has been mentioned before, again not in quotation marks in this link.

http://www.liverpoolconfidential.co...erseyrail-in-talks-over-brand-new-train-fleet

Of particular importance is the following
Cllr Robinson told Liverpool Confidential: “As the trains would have a working life of 40 to 50 years, a purpose built fleet is one of the options. Nothing is being ruled out.

“The one certainty is by the end of this decade the existing fleet will be reaching the end of its working life. The trains we use today continue to provide excellent service, largely due to an excellent maintenance staff. But even now they are the oldest trains in operation anywhere in the country.”


Commenting on the cost of the project, Cllr Robinson said: “Just one coach would cost a million pounds, and to replace the entire fleet with new coaches and driving units, coupled with the other changes we want, we could be looking at £400m.

“It is not just about new trains, it is about the whole experience for rail users, from getting to and from stations, to new ticketing arrangements, to improvements to the track.”

Merseyrail clearly need to maintain public support to the service so to spend 8 million on a lick of paint and general cosmetic refresh is probably a good long term business as they can then argue they need the new stock to cater for increasing passenger numbers and expansion of the network.

My bet would be on dual voltage/OHLE equipped trains by 2020.

 

[bramling]

The Echo article is here http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/new-look-merseyrail-trains-set-6509944

As far as I can see the link to the survey above and on the Merseytravel /Merseyrail website does not appear to be present but interesting I note in the Echo article the paragraph suggesting the 507/508's could be refurbished is NOT in quotation marks whereas some of the points obviously have been quoted from the press release. However, refurbishment has been mentioned before, again not in quotation marks in this link.

http://www.liverpoolconfidential.co...erseyrail-in-talks-over-brand-new-train-fleet

Of particular importance is the following
Cllr Robinson told Liverpool Confidential: “As the trains would have a working life of 40 to 50 years, a purpose built fleet is one of the options. Nothing is being ruled out.

“The one certainty is by the end of this decade the existing fleet will be reaching the end of its working life. The trains we use today continue to provide excellent service, largely due to an excellent maintenance staff. But even now they are the oldest trains in operation anywhere in the country.”


Commenting on the cost of the project, Cllr Robinson said: “Just one coach would cost a million pounds, and to replace the entire fleet with new coaches and driving units, coupled with the other changes we want, we could be looking at £400m.

“It is not just about new trains, it is about the whole experience for rail users, from getting to and from stations, to new ticketing arrangements, to improvements to the track.”

Merseyrail clearly need to maintain public support to the service so to spend 8 million on a lick of paint and general cosmetic refresh is probably a good long term business as they can then argue they need the new stock to cater for increasing passenger numbers and expansion of the network.

My bet would be on dual voltage/OHLE equipped trains by 2020.

Rather than replacing the fleet, which is fit for purpose if a little worn in places, I'd rather money was spent increasing the fleet size NOW. 15 class 508s have recently been scrapped, even a handful of these fully refurbished for further service would have brought massive benefits to Merseyrail users.

It's all very well talking of new trains in 5 or 10 years time, however this is little comfort for passengers euduring crush-loaded 3-car trains on the Southport or Chester lines on a daily basis.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Rather than replacing the fleet, which is fit for purpose if a little worn in places, I'd rather money was spent increasing the fleet size NOW. 15 class 508s have recently been scrapped, even a handful of these fully refurbished for further service would have brought massive benefits to Merseyrail users.

It's all very well talking of new trains in 5 or 10 years time, however this is little comfort for passengers euduring crush-loaded 3-car trains on the Southport or Chester lines on a daily basis.

Agree it does seem strange decision, but those 508 have been discussed previously in this forum and the majority apparently were in very poor condition, hence the decision to scrap them. Having said that, one must question why any company would allow a valuable asset to rot to a condition that results in it only being fit for scrapping. Equally, from Merseyrail's point of view why commit to hiring the additional stock and consequential costs when there is no incentive to do so, bearing in mind that elsewhere it is claimed that Merseyrail has the largest subsidiary of all the metropolitan areas. If this increased, those commuters in the south of England might think they are getting a bad deal.

You just cannot win and there has to be a better way, it would not happen in any other industry. Nationalisation is not the answer either but now we are getting completely off topic, so just let's say it is cost.

 

[fowler9]

Agree it does seem strange decision, but those 508 have been discussed previously in this forum and the majority apparently were in very poor condition, hence the decision to scrap them. Having said that, one must question why any company would allow a valuable asset to rot to a condition that results in it only being fit for scrapping. Equally, from Merseyrail's point of view why commit to hiring the additional stock and consequential costs when there is no incentive to do so, bearing in mind that elsewhere it is claimed that Merseyrail has the largest subsidiary of all the metropolitan areas. If this increased, those commuters in the south of England might think they are getting a bad deal.

You just cannot win and there has to be a better way, it would not happen in any other industry. Nationalisation is not the answer either but now we are getting completely off topic, so just let's say it is cost.

Goodness knows how it all works but I'd be shocked if commuters down south were jealous of our overcrowded 3 car 30 year old trains.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Goodness knows how it all works but I'd be shocked if commuters down south were jealous of our overcrowded 3 car 30 year old trains.

They probably wouldn't be jealous, but they might question the fact that their taxes and or fares are being used to pay the highest subsidy for operating the network, but then it could be argued perhaps that investing in new stock and infrastructure could also save costs. And so the cost argument would go on.

 

[petersi]

Goodness knows how it all works but I'd be shocked if commuters down south were jealous of our overcrowded 3 car 30 year old trains.

No we have class 313 on the mooregate route which are of the same vintage and unlikely to be replaced soon.

There is no plan for refurbishment or replacement. Train replacement is to me seams to a political decision.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[fowler9]

They probably wouldn't be jealous, but they might question the fact that their taxes and or fares are being used to pay the highest subsidy for operating the network, but then it could be argued perhaps that investing in new stock and infrastructure could also save costs. And so the cost argument would go on.

Well it does end up being a bit of a circular argument. I pay my taxes in Liverpool which are going towards Crossrail, a Heathrow expansion and possibly HS2 which from what I can see is just attracting more and more business to London so more and more people down there will be wanting more and more money spent in the area. People down there will be feeling they are subsidising the North which they will have to do because little gets done to attract business up this way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No we have class 313 on the mooregate route which are of the same vintage and unlikely to be replaced soon.

There is no plan for refurbishment or replacement. Train replacement is to me seams to a political decision.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Well given the way the south east is being left out for transport investment I wouldn't blame you for being a bit put out.