Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[lrailadventure]

777008 and 010 also gone again today. Mix of CCTV fault, PIS fault, "web socket" fault. Believe one had a step board fault too. As always not sure which had what fault and when/where.

777013 was the one with the step board fault at Sandhills. Apparently it wouldn't retract.

I would have a look at any of the threads on here about any new trains since forever. This level of faults is entirely typical, for all sorts of reasons. It would be more surprising if this didn't happen

Not all new units are coming in with this many faults though. Certain TfW units for example have to do a significantly higher amount of fault free milage before they are accepted, and as such they are experiencing fewer faults. If Merseyrail had done more testing rather than rushing them into service and making a big song and dance about their shiny new trains, these faults wouldn't be as common (they would still occur, I agree, but it's likely they wouldn't be to this extent). Reliability has been shot to pieces on the Kirkby and Ormskirk lines and the network cannot be trusted to get you from A to B without cancellations currently.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Any date for Wirral yet?

 

[Bikeman78]

Has any other train fleet introduction been quite THIS bad? I'm not sure i can recall anything where every day would see multiple failures of an already very small fleet, and for months on end. I find this level of failures frankly shocking?!

The Networkers were dire 30 years ago. The Met Camms and the BREL units caused all sorts of problems when they coupled up. The 357s were grounded after a number of failures and the three car 310s brought in from Birmingham to cover for a year. The 323s weren't great either. They shut down in frosty weather.

 

[L401CJF]

Is the PIS system related to a more important /critical system on these units?

A lot of the units taken out of service are due to "PIS stuck on not in service" (or just stuck) according to internal emails I've been shown. Anywhere else in the country manual announcements would be made by crew and the show would go on. Half the TFW journeys don't have a valid input code for the PIS so they trundle along with TFW showing on the displays.

Even a few of the legacy 50X units have dodgy PIS these days (124 being one which has been broken for months) which get stuck yet they continue in service.

 

[prod_pep]

777 failures have still occurred virtually daily over the last few weeks, so they have been only marginally better at best. Certainly, this week has been particularly terrible.

Some seem especially prone to faults, 777001 (another with reported problems yesterday) and 777018 in particular, whilst 777049 seems to be fairly dependable as these units go.

 

[Bikeman78]

You pretty much can make a train run forever, just like you can a car (there are Ford Model Ts out there, and enough preserved railway kit). It just comes down to when it ceases to be economic to do so. Trains are more like houses than cars in that sense which is why 40-50 years is a typical lifespan. Parts can always be fabricated and electronic equipment replaced with more modern kit.

Note, I don't think they should be keeping 50x running indefinitely (just replace the awful seats on the 777s ), but if they did want to it's possible.

There are PCC trams from 1966 still running in Antwerp. As far as I can tell, they are no less reliable now than they were 50 years ago. The Belgian AM75 pig nose trains have just been extensively refurbished and will be fitted with ETCS. They will quite likely see 60 years service. As you say, EMUs will basically carry on forever if properly maintained and overhauled.

Is the PIS system related to a more important /critical system on these units?

A lot of the units taken out of service are due to "PIS stuck on not in service" (or just stuck) according to internal emails I've been shown. Anywhere else in the country manual announcements would be made by crew and the show would go on. Half the TFW journeys don't have a valid input code for the PIS so they trundle along with TFW showing on the displays.

Even a few of the legacy 50X units have dodgy PIS these days (124 being one which has been broken for months) which get stuck yet they continue in service.

As you say, taking a train out because the PIS is broken is absurd. I don't believe that any passenger would rather have no train at all rather than one without automatic announcements.

 

[jamesst]

There are PCC trams from 1966 still running in Antwerp. As far as I can tell, they are no less reliable now than they were 50 years ago. The Belgian AM75 pig nose trains have just been extensively refurbished and will be fitted with ETCS. They will quite likely see 60 years service. As you say, EMUs will basically carry on forever if properly maintained and overhauled.


As you say, taking a train out because the PIS is broken is absurd. I don't believe that any passenger would rather have no train at all rather than one without automatic announcements.

The pis is linked into other systems on the 777s rather than a standalone item on the 507/8s.

 

[childwallblues]

There are PCC trams from 1966 still running in Antwerp. As far as I can tell, they are no less reliable now than they were 50 years ago. The Belgian AM75 pig nose trains have just been extensively refurbished and will be fitted with ETCS. They will quite likely see 60 years service. As you say, EMUs will basically carry on forever if properly maintained and overhauled.


As you say, taking a train out because the PIS is broken is absurd. I don't believe that any passenger would rather have no train at all rather than one without automatic announcements.

I was on 777049 on Tuesday. The unit arrived at Sandhills showing OUT OF SERVICE as its destination but still carried on to Kirkby. I travelled back on it to Liverpool Central and on arrival carried on in service back to Kirkby.

 

[Bikeman78]

The pis is linked into other systems on the 777s rather than a standalone item on the 507/8s.

Are you able to elaborate? Seems that modern trains are over complicated.

 

[43066]

The Networkers were dire 30 years ago. The Met Camms and the BREL units caused all sorts of problems when they coupled up. The 357s were grounded after a number of failures and the three car 310s brought in from Birmingham to cover for a year. The 323s weren't great either. They shut down in frosty weather.

There were big problems with 700s at first, the 710s had problems and the 701s are now. People have short memories!

As you say, taking a train out because the PIS is broken is absurd. I don't believe that any passenger would rather have no train at all rather than one without automatic announcements.

These days it can go beyond just having no announcements; the PIS is integral to modern trains’ workings, and potentially won’t allow doors to be opened etc. if it throws a wobbly. This was part of the problem with the 700s initially.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I would have a look at any of the threads on here about any new trains since forever. This level of faults is entirely typical, for all sorts of reasons. It would be more surprising if this didn't happen

I was waiting for someone to say this. With reference to both the 777s and TfW 230s, could it just be that the niche nature of the units means that failures stand out more/have more impact? Didn't Virgin have to keep a couple of loco hauled sets on standby when the 390s were first introduced?

 

[Sam 76]

I was waiting for someone to say this. With reference to both the 777s and TfW 230s, could it just be that the niche nature of the units means that failures stand out more/have more impact? Didn't Virgin have to keep a couple of loco hauled sets on standby when the 390s were first introduced?

I think that will certainly be part of it. Part of the problem on Merseyrail is when one breaks down there is nowhere to go a lot of the time so it causes significant disruption.
They will bed down eventually. Does anyone in the know have the miles per fault numbers between now and when they first started ?

 

[childwallblues]

777 failures have still occurred virtually daily over the last few weeks, so they have been only marginally better at best. Certainly, this week has been particularly terrible.

Some seem especially prone to faults, 777001 (another with reported problems yesterday) and 777018 in particular, whilst 777049 seems to be fairly dependable as these units go.

See my post 4868

 

[lrailadventure]

Are you able to elaborate? Seems that modern trains are over complicated.

The PIS is now linked to a whole host of things, including the CCTV, the 'panel' that guards tap back on and weirdly part of the fire system (the logic was if smoke was detected the announcements would automatically be linked so they can tell passengers to move out of the affected area).

So I'm guessing some of the PIS faults are affecting the guards ability to tap back on the train (therefore can't dispatch) and the fire system (therefore probably not safe to run if the alarms won't work) so the trains have to be pulled out of service until the faults are rectified.

 

[Bikeman78]

The PIS is now linked to a whole host of things, including the CCTV, the 'panel' that guards tap back on and weirdly part of the fire system (the logic was if smoke was detected the announcements would automatically be linked so they can tell passengers to move out of the affected area).

So I'm guessing some of the PIS faults are affecting the guards ability to tap back on the train (therefore can't dispatch) and the fire system (therefore probably not safe to run if the alarms won't work) so the trains have to be pulled out of service until the faults are rectified.

Thanks for the info. I do think the passengers would probably move without being told though! I certainly would. With such complicated systems, will these trains ever be reliable?

 

[ExRes]

There were big problems with 700s at first, the 710s had problems and the 701s are now. People have short memories!

Short memories indeed, I don't have any problems recalling the amount of time I spent at Farringdon when the 377s were introduced on Thameslink, units shutting down on the AC/DC changeover, doors not working, no PIS, units being taken out of service and, of course, delays to service after service, they settled down like the 777s will

 

[lrailadventure]

Thanks for the info. I do think the passengers would probably move without being told though! I certainly would. With such complicated systems, will these trains ever be reliable?

You would like to think people would move out of the affected area.. but have you met the general British public?

Hopefully they start finding solutions to these faults (or what's causing all the faults) soon so they can improve the reliability, preferably before they start pushing them out to more lines, or making Ormskirk 777 operation only.

 

[Peter Sarf]

777008 and 010 also gone again today. Mix of CCTV fault, PIS fault, "web socket" fault. Believe one had a step board fault too. As always not sure which had what fault and when/where.

Gosh how complex trains have become. That is always going to make the risks mount up.

I would have a look at any of the threads on here about any new trains since forever. This level of faults is entirely typical, for all sorts of reasons. It would be more surprising if this didn't happen

Indeed. We quickly forget the worst.

 

[Pacef8]

Saturday 13th May
Ormskirk:

• 0650 Ormskirk - Moorfields is cancelled
• 0735 Moorfields - Ormskirk is cancelled
• 0810 Ormskirk - Moorfields is cancelled
• 0855 Moorfields - Ormskirk is cancelled

Kirkby line:

Some services will be diverted to Aintree.

Rail replacement buses have been requested to run between Aintree & Kirkby.

• 0713 Kirkby - Moorfields is cancelled
• 0745 Moorfields - Kirkby is cancelled
• 0813 Kirkby - Moorfields is cancelled

 

[lrailadventure]

Saturday 13th May
Ormskirk:

• 0650 Ormskirk - Moorfields is cancelled
• 0735 Moorfields - Ormskirk is cancelled
• 0810 Ormskirk - Moorfields is cancelled
• 0855 Moorfields - Ormskirk is cancelled

Kirkby line:

Some services will be diverted to Aintree.

Rail replacement buses have been requested to run between Aintree & Kirkby.

• 0713 Kirkby - Moorfields is cancelled
• 0745 Moorfields - Kirkby is cancelled
• 0813 Kirkby - Moorfields is cancelled

Ormskirk was due to a train fault, but the cancellations at Kirkby are apparently due to a track fault at Kirkby. For once I don't think the 777s can be blamed for that one (unless they've somehow managed to break the track).

(Edit: removed link to service alteration details from the Network Rail Website)

 

[Bikeman78]

You would like to think people would move out of the affected area.. but have you met the general British public?

Well they got off that 466 near Maidstone pretty quickly! I'm going to hazard a guess that they didn't need to be told.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

That’s quite alright. It wasn’t intended as a personal criticism, I just wanted to clear up any possible confusion. There may be younger contributors who may be misled into believing that there were ever more than 3 PEP units.

To be fair I didn’t realise that and have always thought the were PEPs.

 

[The_Train]

Ormskirk was due to a train fault, but the cancellations at Kirkby are apparently due to a track fault at Kirkby. For once I don't think the 777s can be blamed for that one (unless they've somehow managed to break the track).

Find details of current incidents | National Rail

A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Not what Merseyrail twitter are reporting

 

[lrailadventure]

Not what Merseyrail twitter are reporting

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1657260190763212800?t=78vX4e_G_LHTQEBYBRTHeA&s=19

Friend with access to the system has finally woken up.

777049 failed at Kirkby because it couldn't get any power from the 3rd rail. Delay report wasn't clear if it was a fault with the unit itself being unable to collect power or a fault with the tracks being unable to provide the power.

777049 has also has a PIS already today apparently so it's not doing particularly well..

Either way, it's fixed now and services are resuming.

 

[Pacef8]

Here'd on the grapevine the euro train will be doing a pa for the hoylake chip and put race .

 

[Sam 76]

Has there been a recent software update to these? It’s like at the start again. 2 have gone pop already this morning

 

[Vespa]

Has there been a recent software update to these? It’s like at the start again. 2 have gone pop already this morning

I'm about to go to Central station, doesn't sound promising.

On the 9.31 to Ormskirk 777 Eurovision unit, noticed 9.35 to Kirkby is cancelled a 4 car train so it can only be a 777.

 

[karlbbb]

The 777 on the Kirkby run that went through Kirkdale at 0730 had "NOT IN SERVICE" on the external destination boards, although the internal displays all looked to be working (I was on a train into Central going the opposite way).

 

[paddyb6]

Familiarisation has now begun on the New Brighton Line:
5N77, 5N78 and 5D78 this morning, 5N87, 5N88 and 5D89 this afternoon.

Realtime Trains | Departures from New Brighton all day on 15/05/2023

Train information at New Brighton all day on 15/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[danbarnstall]

Has there been a recent software update to these? It’s like at the start again. 2 have gone pop already this morning

Yes there has and I’m led to believe we may see a few short term changes to 777 running over the coming days to fix these software issues.