Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[prod_pep]

The arrogance of Steve Rotherham, the Labour Metro Mayor. He has simply dismissed peoples concerns / complaints withe the 777's as first world problems.

See linked report from liverpool echo where Mayor dismisses publics complaints re new trains as first World problems

Berk of the highest order. "Tone deaf," to use the internet's favourite phrase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The arrogance of Steve Rotherham, the Labour Metro Mayor. He has simply dismissed peoples concerns / complaints withe the 777's as first world problems.

See linked report from liverpool echo where Mayor dismisses publics complaints re new trains as first World problems

Wow. That'd lose my vote. What breathtaking arrogance.

Gerald Ratner moment?

 

[L401CJF]

Loads of comments on the poor seats when the mockup was on show at Pacific Road a few years back, Merseytravel staff there taking feedback. As we can see, they left them rock solid anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Loads of comments on the poor seats when the mockup was on show at Pacific Road a few years back, Merseytravel staff there taking feedback. As we can see, they left them rock solid anyway.

One thing I remarked on was that the headrests stuck out into my shoulders. A cheap attempt was made to remedy that by making the upper cushion thicker, the effect of which is to force my shoulders forward and my back into an uncomfortable C shape. The right remedy would have been to bin the awful seat design in favour of a better one with a proper high back e.g. the ironing board, that similar but better one used on Renatus units, or even the Fainsa Sophia which is designed for short journeys like these.

Why do companies seemingly put these mockups up after they have signed all the contracts and can't make meaningful change?

 

[Ianigsy]

The arrogance of Steve Rotherham, the Labour Metro Mayor. He has simply dismissed peoples concerns / complaints withe the 777's as first world problems.

See linked report from liverpool echo where Mayor dismisses publics complaints re new trains as first World problems

I for one would like to welcome Kirkby to the first world…..

(and before anybody says anything, my great-uncle and great-aunt lived very happily in a maisonette in Kirkby for many years)

 

[childwallblues]

I for one would like to welcome Kirkby to the first world…..

(and before anybody says anything, my great-uncle and great-aunt lived very happily in a maisonette in Kirkby for many years)

As our local LCR Mayor I have noted that Rotheram is a person that likes all the plaudits and takes the credits for any success. However he does not seem to accept criticism. For years he stayed silent refusing to get involved with the unions to try to get the 777 dispute sorted whilst brand new trains sat in sidings in Poland, Switzerland and the UK doing nothing.
Heaven help the mess we will be in when he starts to bring in local bus franchisting.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Loads of comments on the poor seats when the mockup was on show at Pacific Road a few years back, Merseytravel staff there taking feedback. As we can see, they left them rock solid anyway.

Should be, “as we can feel”!

 

[Wezz]

So in other words these faults are likely the result of the late change in spec from driver controlled doors to modify for the ability for guards to tell the driver to close the doors.

This would make sense. Retrofitting and modifying hardware controlling software to integrate different features is always going to be problematic.

It would also explain why this wasn't a problem in testing (albeit perhaps the testing wasn't full enough).

Yet everyone was complaining saying "where are the new trains"

Several of us in the know said the trains weren't ready, but nobody believed us..

 

[Sam 76]

Yet everyone was complaining saying "where are the new trains"

Several of us in the know said the trains weren't ready, but nobody believed us..

This is so true. It’s really has gone full circle, would you say they are any more ready now than back then ?

 

[Wezz]

This is so true. It’s really has gone full circle, would you say they are any more ready now than back then ?

No, far too many issues with the PIS, 8 car running hasn't been fixed and there are constant issues with the doors.

It'll get worse once the battery units enter service as I can predict battery issues being added to the list.

 

[Parjon]

Yet everyone was complaining saying "where are the new trains"

Several of us in the know said the trains weren't ready, but nobody believed us..

Whether the trains are stuck in the sheds or out on the tracks, it doesn't alter the situation. If this is being caused by a retrofit of non-design functionality, then giving way to the unions has been even more costly than we already knew.

 

[OL-3944]

Whether the trains are stuck in the sheds or out on the tracks, it doesn't alter the situation. If this is being caused by a retrofit of non-design functionality, then giving way to the unions has been even more costly than we already knew.

It’s got absolutely nothing to do with that. My contact tells me the units display “Out of Service” by themselves which is against the agreed fault on trains running plan. It would appear this problem is not of Stadler’s own making but rather the company (Teleste) whom they subcontracted out the PIS system. There are other numerous faults with the PIS ie informing passengers to alight on the wrong side of the train or missing out stations but the ‘Out of Service” is the major problem at the moment.

 

[Sam 76]

It’s got absolutely nothing to do with that. My contact tells me the units display “Out of Service” by themselves which is against the agreed fault on trains running plan. It would appear this problem is not of Stadler’s own making but rather the company (Teleste) whom they subcontracted out the PIS system. There are other numerous faults with the PIS ie informing passengers to alight on the wrong side of the train or missing out stations but the ‘Out of Service” is the major problem at the moment.

Have they made no way for it to be manually changed even as a fail safe ? If not that seems quite the omission in design as what are they supposed to do when a train has to terminate short

 

[OL-3944]

It would appear that they haven’t built in a “fail safe”. As soon as the PIS spits out it’s dummy a warning on the drivers dashboard tells them to retire at the next station.

 

[danbarnstall]

Have they made no way for it to be manually changed even as a fail safe ? If not that seems quite the omission in design as what are they supposed to do when a train has to terminate short

Yes it can be manually inputted and stations can be skipped on the same menu.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Yet everyone was complaining saying "where are the new trains"

Several of us in the know said the trains weren't ready, but nobody believed us..

No, far too many issues with the PIS, 8 car running hasn't been fixed and there are constant issues with the doors.

It'll get worse once the battery units enter service as I can predict battery issues being added to the list.

Not blaming passengers for all the problems now then? That’s something I suppose but I am curious how long you expect people who are paying for the trains, whether they are in service or not, to wait. The first unit arrived on Merseyside 3 years before they entered service. Many would suggest that is plenty of time to sort out some of the issues and if the PIS is so integral and important why wasn’t more thorough testing done on it during those 3 years instead sticking them in some sidings and then putting them into traffic and implementing random “fixes” which seem to make the problem worse?

 

[yorkie]

This is an updates thread to discuss the Class 777 delivery and introduction into service.

To discuss travel experiences, seating preferences etc, please check out the following threads:

Merseyrail Class 777 travel experiences

I took two round trips this morning and thought the units quite pleasant to ride on. I had previously taken a look around one when it was displayed at Birkenhead North 18 months ago. One quirky thing I noticed this time was that most window bays have plastic hooks above them. Are these...

www.railforums.co.uk

Merseyrail Class 777 seating

I went for a short ride today. Very impressed. Lots of airline seats which I prefer. Lots of knee room. Nice height - much higher than the class 319 I went into Liverpool on. Firm but not uncomfortable. The exit to platform are much better than on the 331s. On my trip from Liverpool Central the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Merseyrail Class 777 review

I said I'd post more details on my observations and opinions from a ride on Friday, so here they are. If you're a real fan of these units you may not wish to read on, but if you are interested in a bit of a critique here goes. First impressions from outside good - they look properly slick...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Wezz]

Not blaming passengers for all the problems now then? That’s something I suppose but I am curious how long you expect people who are paying for the trains, whether they are in service or not, to wait. The first unit arrived on Merseyside 3 years before they entered service. Many would suggest that is plenty of time to sort out some of the issues and if the PIS is so integral and important why wasn’t more thorough testing done on it during those 3 years instead sticking them in some sidings and then putting them into traffic and implementing random “fixes” which seem to make the problem worse?

The door problems that we were facing were partly caused by passengers, we had several incidents with passengers stopping the doors from closing which has since subsided, PIS issues have recently been causing mayhem and accounts for the majority of train failures.

The trains are extremely technologically advanced so other systems were prioritised to ensure they were actually compatible with the network, we needed more time to test other features such as the PIS but the metro mayor was pressing for the trains to be put in service before the PIS could be thoroughly tested.

COVID also prevented a lot of testing due to social distancing and the lockdowns, but everyone's quick to forget that there was an ongoing global pandemic.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is there a thread for the dedicated 777 diagrams as more enter traffic?

 

[prod_pep]

How quickly the attitude has gone from 'we always said there would be teething problems. They're normal so stop moaning' to 'we always knew they weren't ready and only put them out due to external pressure'.

I saw the 777s on test through all but the the fullest lockdowns of the pandemic, so I'm not sure that excuse holds water.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How quickly the attitude has gone from 'we always said there would be teething problems. They're normal so stop moaning' to 'we always knew they weren't ready and only put them out due to external pressure'.

I saw the 777s on test through all but the the fullest lockdowns of the pandemic, so I'm not sure that excuse holds water.

Did they test with the PIS fully working (even if they put stickers over it) and with the doors being released and a member of staff tapping the dispatch card, though? It seems to me they didn't?

It is notable that the testing of the C2C 720s I've observed on the WCML does seem to be being done with the full works, i.e. doors releasing at each stop and the PIS set up correctly, even naming WCML stations it calls at on test. This does confuse people a bit but you could always put stickers over it, and there are canvas banners blocking boarding at each door in case a passenger does open them either through confusion or an enthusiast mucking about.

 

[prod_pep]

Did they test with the PIS fully working (even if they put stickers over it) and with the doors being released and a member of staff tapping the dispatch card, though? It seems to me they didn't?

I'm not sure actually but it seems a ridiculous oversight if not.

 

[Skie]

I'm not sure actually but it seems a ridiculous oversight if not.

Given the way of working was only agreed a few weeks before they started service, they didn’t have a huge amount of time to do full testing.

Also the trackside network which helps feed the PIS with data (amongst other things) only went live with the units accepting passengers. That can’t have helped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the way of working was only agreed a few weeks before they started service, they didn’t have a huge amount of time to do full testing.

No reason they couldn't have tested it with contractors of some sort tapping the cards. Without passengers being carried you don't need actual guards.

Also the trackside network which helps feed the PIS with data (amongst other things) only went live with the units accepting passengers. That can’t have helped.

If that's true then it's grossly negligent.

 

[prod_pep]

All further proof, if it were needed, that the 777s shouldn't have entered squadron service when they did.

 

[Class15]

All further proof, if it were needed, that the 777s shouldn't have entered squadron service when they did.

Exactly. It was very rushed.

 

[L401CJF]

Did they test with the PIS fully working (even if they put stickers over it) and with the doors being released and a member of staff tapping the dispatch card, though? It seems to me they didn't?

It is notable that the testing of the C2C 720s I've observed on the WCML does seem to be being done with the full works, i.e. doors releasing at each stop and the PIS set up correctly, even naming WCML stations it calls at on test. This does confuse people a bit but you could always put stickers over it, and there are canvas banners blocking boarding at each door in case a passenger does open them either through confusion or an enthusiast mucking about.

I went out at 2am to see one on test at Bache during their first week of testing on the Wirral back in 2020 I think it was. Train pulled up, Liverpool on the destination screen, doors open, doors close, away it went. Worth noting however I think this was prior to the Guards fob things being brought in.

 

[paddyb6]

I went out at 2am to see one on test at Bache during their first week of testing on the Wirral back in 2020 I think it was. Train pulled up, Liverpool on the destination screen, doors open, doors close, away it went. Worth noting however I think this was prior to the Guards fob things being brought in.

I too saw this service and yes, it had the PIS appearing to function correctly.

 

[Parjon]

I went out at 2am to see one on test at Bache during their first week of testing on the Wirral back in 2020 I think it was. Train pulled up, Liverpool on the destination screen, doors open, doors close, away it went. Worth noting however I think this was prior to the Guards fob things being brought in.

Weren't the doors also on automatic open/close, rather than button press activated?

 

[L401CJF]

Weren't the doors also on automatic open/close, rather than button press activated?

They were indeed