Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Bletchleyite]

I went out at 2am to see one on test at Bache during their first week of testing on the Wirral back in 2020 I think it was. Train pulled up, Liverpool on the destination screen, doors open, doors close, away it went. Worth noting however I think this was prior to the Guards fob things being brought in.

Interesting. So what was different? Is this all about changes made for the proximity card dispatch?

Edit: also not the door buttons. You can't I guess be surprised if something doesn't work when you didn't test it in the same way it would be used. (But if that was the issue couldn't they just revert to having all doors open at every station until the issue is fixed?)

 

[karlbbb]

I recall seeing testing in late 2022 where all doors just opened at each station with the "I'm being tested" barriers across each doorway. Would it be right to assume the driver has both "open" and "release" buttons in the cab?
I would further assume that the trains "can't" be reverted to automatic door operation as suggested by @Bletchleyite as that would render the guard/train manager useless and would be DOO as originally intended, and thus anger unions?


I was on an Ormskirk to Central run last week and they had a few Merseyrail and a Stadler employee on board troubleshooting. It seems that even when the PIS system was manually scrolled to the correct station (when it had fallen behind), the driver taking power caused it to revert to the starting station and not work, every single time (fix tried at Maghull, Old Roan, and Aintree). The Stadler employee then offered a "full shutdown" as the next course of action for the driver upon reaching Central.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would further assume that the trains "can't" be reverted to automatic door operation as suggested by @Bletchleyite as that would render the guard/train manager useless and would be DOO as originally intended, and thus anger unions?

No, that wouldn't be correct. The doors are, under the agreement, driver released, so the driver opening them all wouldn't breach it as far as I can tell.

The guard doesn't do anything at all with doors. They in effect just give the "first tip" using the proximity card, then the driver does the rest. It's very similar to the Southern OBS working other than that there is that explicit "all done" rather than just blocking departure with the key, plus they are still considered safety critical.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

No, that wouldn't be correct. The doors are, under the agreement, driver released, so the driver opening them all wouldn't breach it as far as I can tell.

The guard doesn't do anything at all with doors. They in effect just give the "first tip" using the proximity card, then the driver does the rest. It's very similar to the Southern OBS working other than that there is that explicit "all done" rather than just blocking departure with the key, plus they are still considered safety critical.

Bit like how Queensland Rail does it with thier suburban trains. The driver releases the doors. The guard at the other end of the train when the platform work is done gives two dings on the bell and the driver closes the doors.

 

[Bovverboy]

777012 was stabled at New Brighton yesterday, I've no idea how long it had been there. I can't find any mention on the forum.

 

[Wrex2J78]

777012 was stabled at New Brighton yesterday, I've no idea how long it had been there. I can't find any mention on the forum.

Arrived last Monday (15 May), presumably to do the test runs shown in RTT. It did one circuit from New Brighton, then one to West Kirby. It then returned to New Brighton where it has been stabled ever since.

 

[Sam 76]

777014 appears to be having its first day in service today

 

[childwallblues]

777014 appears to be having its first day in service today

I travelled to Kirkby and return to Liverpool Central on it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Any closer to a Wirral line introduction?

 

[samrammstein]

For the record, KIR/OMS numbers from this morning:

2K16 777014 / 2G76 507004 / 2K17 777007
2O20 777001 / 2G38 507009 / 2O21 508130 / 2G39 508138 / 2O22 508126 / 2G40 777013

In recent weeks the diagrams including 2G76 and 2G39 were also 777s, temporarily they are not so, it appears.

 

[karlbbb]

Another 777 failed this morning at Town Green. Not sure on unit number but the whole run has been cancelled.

 

[stuart100100]

Another 777 failed this morning at Town Green. Not sure on unit number but the whole run has been cancelled.

Also a broken down Kirkby train at Kirkdale now

 

[Sam 76]

777013 will be next to go on Ormskirk PIS seems to have have done itself in

 

[Herefordian]

Any closer to a Wirral line introduction?

Until they work properly, I'd hope not.

 

[jamesst]

Any closer to a Wirral line introduction?

Nope aside from a vague idea to get a couple running for the open golf in July .

 

[AlastairFraser]

Anyone know if the 777s are running every diagram on the Kirkby line? Heading down to Liverpool via Ormskirk and have a Lancs Day Ranger, so would like to catch one out and about at least.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Anyone know if the 777s are running every diagram on the Kirkby line? Heading down to Liverpool via Ormskirk and have a Lancs Day Ranger, so would like to catch one out and about at least.

I can't tell you for certain what will be on there but in recent times a few 777 diagrams have been replaced back with 50X so they're probably not all 777.

 

[Sam 76]

I can't tell you for certain what will be on there but in recent times a few 777 diagrams have been replaced back with 50X so they're probably not all 777.

The last few days it’s been 2 777s and 1 507/508

 

[Prime586]

I've been following this thread (and the whole forum) for years as a lurker. I've been a software engineer for over 25 years, working on realtime embedded firmware for telecoms systems that are part of the critical national infrastructure and the current issues with the 777s have made me want to join the discussion.

I looked up Teleste's PIS system to see how it is put together (see this brochure, particularly the system diagram on page 7). It seems the location system on the train doesn't update the displays or cue the announcements directly - the location data goes back to a central server which then sends the display updates and announcement cues to the train. This relies on the vehicles being in constant contact with the server over a network, which is presumably why they had to install the new trackside wireless network for the introduction of the 777s. Merseytravel have named their implementation of the Teleste system Train Connectivity and Information System (TCIS)

As well as the location data and PIS updates, the train's wireless connection to the network (which is only 100Mbps, according to the June 2020 RailEngineer article) also allows the trains to stream maintenance and CCTV data to Sandhills, and the on-board passenger WiFi is supplied as a byproduct of the requirement for the trains to be constantly connected.

It makes me suspect that the onboard PIS issues are either due to the connection to the server in Sandhills being dropped and unable to reconnect, or possibly that onboard router that links all the train systems via ethernet to the trackside network gets overloaded and crashes. As to the possible causes, it might be that there are now more nodes (trains) active on the network, passengers using the WiFi (though hopefully it has been configured with a protected bandwidth limit for the essential train systems), or a change to one of the other on-board systems that uses the location data causing problems for the PIS (wasn't there an issue early on relating to the real time data recorders getting the wrong time and date in their log messages?).

The telecoms systems I work on were designed to be resilient via the use of distributed processing from the start - if a lower node loses connectivity with an upper node, it has a built-in fallback mode to provide limited local functionality rather than just giving up. However, this is seen as old-fashioned nowadays, and systems like Teleste's are now the norm, where the user-facing nodes are 'dumb' or 'light' to make them cheaper, and all the processing is offloaded to central servers. That is fine, provided you can guarantee a connection to the server 100% of the time.

Designing a PIS that (if Teleste's system diagram is correct) does not have a failback mode to use locally-sourced location data to provide it's updates in the event of a wireless network outage seems a strange choice, especially for an environment with as much potential RF noise as a third rail supplied EMU. I'm reminded of Harvard Technology, the company that supplied councils with 'intelligent streetlights' that were turned on and off by a server owned by the company. When they went bust, the server was turned off and the lights just stayed on

 

[Bletchleyite]

I looked up Teleste's PIS system to see how it is put together (see this brochure, particularly the system diagram on page 7). It seems the location system on the train doesn't update the displays or cue the announcements directly - the location data goes back to a central server which then sends the display updates and announcement cues to the train. This relies on the vehicles being in constant contact with the server over a network, which is presumably why they had to install the new trackside wireless network for the introduction of the 777s. Merseytravel have named their implementation of the Teleste system Train Connectivity and Information System (TCIS)

Excuse me while I have a bit of a giggle. What an utterly, spectacularly, awful piece of design. Simply not fit for purpose.

That will be a sensible approach in about 2050, by which time we'll have blanket, probably satellite, broadband mobile coverage throughout the world with no gaps.

It isn't now. All manner of things make signal drop out or devices lose connectivity, or central servers fail.

Merseyrail stations don't magically move every other day for a laugh. This data should be on the train.

 

[Sam 76]

So that’s the 777s doomed for decades then. It does seem completely foolish to be honest. Imagine it between Ainsdale and Hall Road there’s never any signal at it is. Really quite sad that this oversight has caused such problems and will continue if I’ve read it right to do so

 

[Pete_uk]

It seems the location system on the train doesn't update the displays or cue the announcements directly - the location data goes back to a central server which then sends the display updates and announcement cues to the train.

Someone need taking out and given a slap.

 

[nw-sparks]

Someone need taking out and given a slap.

I may be clutching at straws here, but I'm hoping we have been led astray by reading too much in to a diagram drawn by a salesman.

 

[Prime586]

On further digging in Teleste's website (which is terrible to navigate if you are trying to find any actual information rather than just marketing speak), they do have another product called S-Arrive, which is an on-board PIS software solution, but it seems to be aimed more at updating existing vehicles, or for new vehicles that have to integrate to a legacy PIS network. It still requires network connectivity, but uses an application called PICS to compile the route location database information which is then presumably uploaded to the vehicle (I say 'presumably' as there's no documentation available for S-Arrive).

Looking at page 9 of Teleste's 2018 annual report, it seems that it's the previous incarnation of S-Arrive was was chosen for the 777s (Stadler have had a long relationship with Telstre).

If it is S-Arrive, then I assume it works locally on the units from a stored copy of the PICS-generated route database, with the option of central control being able to display messages or make announcements over the network if neccesary. However, it's a software module that runs on a common hardware platform with the other Teleste-supplied software systems like train managment, CCTV and data recording. S-Arrive is also in use in various Stadler-supplied metro and tram fleets in Scandinavia, Germany, Italy and Switzerland, so it beg the question of what the cause of it's issues on the 777 are, and why did they not manifest themsleves during the long testing period before they went 'live'? (the same could be asked about the issues with the timestamps in the data recorder)

I can't see how passengers pressing door buttons could have any impact on the PIS system, or the addition of the guard's dispatch card (a mod which will have had to be designed, tested and approved by Stadler before release to be fitted to the units), unless the processing platform it's running on or the train's internal network are getting overloaded, leading to a crash. It could be that due to loss of GPS signal or during periods of internal network congestion on the unit, the PIS module loses it's updates from the location system and decides that it's not safe to continue working.

The actual processing platform Stadler use is the Syslogic EN50155 railway computer, wihch runs all their on-board systems and has built-in GPS, so is presumably where the location information originates from which is then passed to the Teleste system over the unit's ethernet network.

 

[Vespa]

Can you not switch off the PIS and carry on ?

 

[childwallblues]

When is the extension to Headbolt Lane likely to be completed so that training runs can commence?

 

[karlbbb]

I must say the air conditioning seems to be quite weak on the 777s. Either that or Stadler/Merseyrail have the set temperature high to save energy (like the constantly changing overhead lights).

On a train yesterday afternoon which felt a bit too warm yet it was only 20ºC outside. I understand the big windows will be causing a lot of solar gain but it didn't feel like the climate control was trying to counteract it. This is a shame considering the air conditioning has been a part of the marketing!

 

[mcnw35282]

When is the extension to Headbolt Lane likely to be completed so that training runs can commence?

According to RTT, Blackburn trains will start from Headbolt Lane station on 24th July. I wonder if they'll rig up some kind of temporary entrance/exit from Platform 3 at Headbolt Lane...or will the access road and footpaths be finished to a satisfactory standard within the next 8 weeks...?

 

[childwallblues]

According to RTT, Blackburn trains will start from Headbolt Lane station on 24th July. I wonder if they'll rig up some kind of temporary entrance/exit from Platform 3 at Headbolt Lane...or will the access road and footpaths be finished to a satisfactory standard within the next 8 weeks...?

Many thanks

 

[Skie]

According to RTT, Blackburn trains will start from Headbolt Lane station on 24th July. I wonder if they'll rig up some kind of temporary entrance/exit from Platform 3 at Headbolt Lane...or will the access road and footpaths be finished to a satisfactory standard within the next 8 weeks...?

8 weeks is nothing to get some tarmac down and lines painted.