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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

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greeny11

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The Merseyrail Twitter is suggesting the West Kirby 777 has been fixed and is running again now.
 
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prod_pep

prod_pep

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777004 was on the West Kirby line. The New Brighton route was all 507/8s following the earlier failure.
 
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irish_rail

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I scarcely believe what I'm reading sometimes on this thread. How we can be this far in and yet the failure rate is so unbelievably bad that they can't even manage a single day without sets failing, its appalling. Cheshire and Merseyside is a wonderful part of this country, but its transport network is being wrecked by these things, and still the 50x get withdrawn. Its scandalous.
 
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py_megapixel

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irish_rail said:
I scarcely believe what I'm reading sometimes on this thread. How we can be this far in and yet the failure rate is so unbelievably bad that they can't even manage a single day without sets failing, its appalling. Cheshire and Merseyside is a wonderful part of this country, but its transport network is being wrecked by these things, and still the 50x get withdrawn. Its scandalous.
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To be fair it's not all of Cheshire and Merseyside. Northern's mixture of CAF stock, 323s and Sprinters doesn't seem to be causing too much of a problem reliability-wise, even if the older stuff is noisy and uncomfortable.
 
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irish_rail

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py_megapixel said:
To be fair it's not all of Cheshire and Merseyside. Northern's mixture of CAF stock, 323s and Sprinters doesn't seem to be causing too much of a problem reliability-wise, even if the older stuff is noisy and uncomfortable.
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No, Merseyrail just covers the good bits! Lol
 
315801

315801

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I think we can safely say that it is a good job that I am not in charge of making decisions at merseyrail because I can tell you now that, if I was in charge, the 777s would be stopped once sufficient 3rd rail units had been brought in to cover the services and these articulated box things would be sent back with a full report to both locations where they are built.

Also included along with the report would be an official request for the depot's or factories whatever they are to sort out the issues and also carry out a full software test on those units that have not even been over here and turned a wheel in service yet.

There is absolutely no way I would accept a fleet of units with so many problems as them because issues like these should be dealt with while there are say 4 units built ( 2 at each factory ) so that the units could be extensively tested through ALL scenarios including the sliding steps which have also caused issues.

The units would then have to have any remedial work done following the extensive testing and only then once the issues had been dealt with would the 1st 2 units be even allowed onto the merseyrail network for the testing over here.

It makes me wonder the following :

1 ) Is the train actually the part of the equation that is at fault ?

2 ) Could any of the equipment on the network be at fault which in turn is leading to issues with the trains

3 ) With the sliding step issues happening, is the floor over each step strong enough to support the weight of passengers standing there without jamming the step mechanism and if not, what can be done to properly fix the problem so that there is no repeat issues with it ?

4 ) If the odd and even numbered units cannot run coupled together, are there any differences no matter how significant they are between the software packages downloaded onto them so that they can be fixed and tested together ?

Now whether these questions were asked and dealt with during the initial tests I don't know and I am NOT going to profess and say that I do know because I know that I don't before anyone shoots me to the ground but these issues should have been resolved before 777003 was even delivered.

Yes this meant that the testing of 8 coach running should also have been conducted ( before delivery of the 1st unit ) both with a pair of odd numbered units and an odd & even numbered unit coupled in the 8 coach formation instead of leaving it to engineers at Kirkdale or Birkenhead North wherever the breakthrough was made that lead to 777001 and 777018 running night tests as the 1st ever 8 coach run which has not been repeated since.

Lastly, regarding the modifications which lead the successful 8 coach night test run, have these modifications been made to the other units over here aswell as those awaiting delivery, I can only wonder what the answer to that is.
 
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urbophile

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py_megapixel said:
To be fair it's not all of Cheshire and Merseyside. Northern's mixture of CAF stock, 323s and Sprinters doesn't seem to be causing too much of a problem reliability-wise, even if the older stuff is noisy and uncomfortable.
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My most recent experience of Northern was the majority of trains being cancelled. Probably not because of stock unreliability, but nevertheless.
 
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Prime586

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315801 said:
Also included along with the report would be an official request for the depot's or factories whatever they are to sort out the issues and also carry out a full software test on those units that have not even been over here and turned a wheel in service yet.
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For the safety critical national infrastructure system I work on (a vast and very complicated combination of software and firmware that has hundreds of thousands of man years of development in it) we have captive 'model' systems that are representative of the hardware the customer will run it on. We have libraries of tens of thousands of manual and automated tests that have to be run before we deliver a new version, and a detailed report of the test scenarios and results is also supplied to the customer. The customer then does their own model acceptance testing before approving the release for a small scale field trial. Our contract with the customer usually has a penalty clause ccondition where any serious faults found during the field trial period that delay the full rollout are subject to penalty payments for every day of delay.

Stadler appear to be using the 'beta test' model that's more common in commercial application software, where you release a version you think is OK, but let the customer find the faults for you, and then engage in a 'firefighting' exercise trying to come up with fixes for them. It gives the impression of corners being cut with insufficient pre-release testing = maybe that was how it was agreed it would proceed in the contract.

The state of the 777s currently makes me wonder if this is due to Merseytravel's inexperience in both procurement and the process of adoption of a new vehicle type. When the 507s were introduced, Merseyrail was still run by BR, and their construction, testing and approval for release on the network were all done under the auspices of BR's various departments. I'd love to see what the contract with Stadler looks like, and whether they got consultants in to write it and do the acceptance testing, or whether they decided to do it themselves.

315801 said:
3 ) With the sliding step issues happening, is the floor over each step strong enough to support the weight of passengers standing there without jamming the step mechanism and if not, what can be done to properly fix the problem so that there is no repeat issues with it ?
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I am assuming the issue with the step modules jamming is not something as basic as the floor above them deforming (Stadler have been building vehicles with these modules fitted for a while, I would hope they would have at least worked that out). Earlier in the thread (post #5138) it was mentioned the step issues were possibly related to the step position changing in relation to the platform edge between when it is deployed and when it comes to retract when the doors close due to changes in the passenger load. Looking at the position and number of doors, it would be interesting to know if the door/step modules in the longer end cars are more prone to faults, as they only have one door vestibule in the middle of the body, between two bogies (i.e. crush loading in the vestibules leading to unevenly distributed suspension loads, or possibly even flexing of the monocoque bodyshell).

The 'long car with a single vestibule' bodyshell design appears to be new to the Class 777 variant of the Stadtler METRO family - all the other METRO variants built previously (Berlin, Valencia and Glasgow) have at least 2 vestibules per car (the new T&W Class 555s have short centre cars with a single vestibule, but the long end cars have two). The Class 777 also appears to be the first METRO variant to be fitted with the sliding step modules (they had previously been used on their other platforms, such as the FLIRT Class 755s for Greater Anglia). The T&W Class 555s also have them, but none of the previous versions delivered for Berlin, Valencia or Glasgow seem to be fitted with them. In those respects the 777s looks to be a new variant of the METRO design, so you would hope those particular aspects had been throughly tested at the 'first off the production line' stage prior to entering full production and delivery to the customer.
 
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karlbbb

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MR-507508 said:
It looks as though the class 777 units will be planned to work on the following Wirral diagrams;
West Kirby - the diagram which start with 2W06 (0751), ending with 2W46 (1751), with the unit then going ECS to North depot.
New Brighton - the diagram which starts with 2N02(0623), ending with 2N49(1823) , with the unit going ECS to Kirkdale depot.
Chester - the diagram which starts with 2C00(0536 from Moorfields), ending with 2C45(1715), with the unit going ECS to North depot.
NB: on Saturdays, it seems the Chester diagram planned to be worked by a class 777 will be the one starting with 2C09 (0815). I guess to prevent the 777 being on a diagram which is out to end of service.
Quite neat how its planned with the units cycling between Kirkdale depot every 3 days in service.
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Assuming this is still correct, the first New Brighton service (2N02 at 0623) has already popped. Good start.
 
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Statto

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irish_rail said:
I scarcely believe what I'm reading sometimes on this thread. How we can be this far in and yet the failure rate is so unbelievably bad that they can't even manage a single day without sets failing, its appalling. Cheshire and Merseyside is a wonderful part of this country, but its transport network is being wrecked by these things, and still the 50x get withdrawn. Its scandalous.
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The whole situation has been farcical from the start, that could write a sitcom on it.

The 777s should have been in service since 2020 however, the dispute with the unions over the use of guards (then covid) put paid to that, that dispute was only settled last January.

Since introduction, their hasn't been a day were at least one unit has developed a fault, i can't remember an introduction of brand new fleet of trains as farcical as the 777s have been
 
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Peter Sarf

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Statto said:
The whole situation has been farcical from the start, that could write a sitcom on it.

The 777s should have been in service since 2020 however, the dispute with the unions over the use of guards (then covid) put paid to that, that dispute was only settled last January.

Since introduction, their hasn't been a day were at least one unit has developed a fault, i can't remember an introduction of brand new fleet of trains as farcical as the 777s have been
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If introduction is so late then begs the question. How long have some of these 777s sat in sidings slowly getting damp ?.
 
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py_megapixel

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Snapper said:
Here's 777004 running on West Kirby services yesterday. Problems persist. The set was late running due to on set of doors being locked out od use do to a step fault, and as you can see the PIS didn't want to play.
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On the plus side, if the unit was actually running with the PIS not working, I think that's an improvement - on initial introduction wasn't it actually possible for a PIS failure to take the whole train out of use?

I don't understand why there are so many step faults. I've never seen one in Germany, where almost all newish trains have steps, including lots of Stadler ones.
 
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greeny11

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Becoming a bit of a joke now, but the West Kirby unit has also developed a fault, leading to it's journey being cancelled at Liverpool Central. 3 days into service on the Wirral line, and every single day has had faults develop on both the units in service.
 
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