Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

[modernrail]

Can’t these signs say something like:
‘If your booking confirmation provides a code and requires you to print your ticket, you must do so before you travel’.

I have read this thread a few times and as an incredibly regular passenger including plenty of flying hours on Merseyrail I am afraid I have no idea what you or Merseyrail are talking about. So many references to things that will just make people’s heads implode if they are expected to get their head around, for instance, multiple types of ‘barcode’.

All I look at as a passenger is, have I been given a code and message to collect my ticket (hardly ever seems to be the only option these days) or have I been given a PDF ticket on an email or ticket on an app. I have no idea what the last two are called other than ‘a ticket to ride’.

If I get a code, I collect the ticket. If I have the PDF on an email or the ticket in an app, I assume I am okay. Is this not correct?

 

[ainsworth74]

That sign is just utterly diabolical even allowing for the fact that they at least manage to fit in all the required legislative wording around the guff that they've also included. Where's the regulator on this? Oh, yes, I forgot. They don't give two hoots.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Not to mention an Off Peak ticket from Birkenhead to London would actually be valid on Merseyrail services before 09:29 anyway.

And anytime on Fridays.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Merseyrail can and do accept genuine e-tickets (and other forms of barcode ticket) without any issue at all. They are familiar with them, particularly as most of the adjoining operators issue them fairly routinely.

No they really don't, the industry instructions that I confirmed with several TOCs on a recent call is that you cannot enable flows ending on Merseyrail for eTickets

 

[MrJeeves]

you cannot enable

Should not would be better. Mistakes are made, and there is nothing preventing you from doing so.

I found one example of a E-Ticket to Liverpool within about 10 mins of searching, issued with an itinerary on Merseyrail.

 

[Adam Williams]

No they really don't, the industry instructions that I confirmed with several TOCs on a recent call is that you cannot enable flows ending on Merseyrail for eTickets

If these rules do exist (writing them down in a spec would be a good first step), the right place to enforce them is RCS itself in the form of automated validation, surely. You cannot rely on telling TOCs "you should do X and not do Y" with your flows - as @MrJeeves points out.

 

[infobleep]

Should not would be better. Mistakes are made, and there is nothing preventing you from doing so.

I found one example of a E-Ticket to Liverpool within about 10 mins of searching, issued with an itinerary on Merseyrail.

Does it end on Merseyrail?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

No they really don't, the industry instructions that I confirmed with several TOCs on a recent call is that you cannot enable flows ending on Merseyrail for eTickets

I think Merseyrail might be interested to hear what those industry instructions are!

As I mentioned previously, on a case by case basis, Merseyrail have agreed products such as the TfW carnet mTickets. Additionally, a significant volumes of tickets to Liverpool South Parkway (managed by Merseyrail) are issued as e-tickets - I suspect moreso than any other format.

In any event, if you own the flow, I'm not convinced that Merseyrail have any contractually legitimate way of influencing what fulfilment methods are enabled.

Similar situation at Southport, Hunt's Cross.

Merseyrail only cares when tickets are issued for travel on their services (they couldn't care less about tickets that are valid to their stations by other operators). Even then, they only care that tickets aren't issued in significant volumes to cause them hassle, which is why some products are agreed on a case by case basis.

 

[infobleep]

I think Merseyrail might be interested to hear what those industry instructions are!

As I mentioned previously, on a case by case basis, Merseyrail have agreed products such as the TfW carnet mTickets. Additionally, a significant volumes of tickets to Liverpool South Parkway (managed by Merseyrail) are issued as e-tickets - I suspect moreso than any other format.

In any event, if you own the flow, I'm not convinced that Merseyrail have any contractually legitimate way of influencing what fulfilment methods are enabled.

Similar situation at Southport, Hunt's Cross.

Merseyrail only cares when tickets are issued for travel on their services (they couldn't care less about tickets that are valid to their stations by other operators). Even then, they only care that tickets aren't issued in significant volumes to cause them hassle, which is why some products are agreed on a case by case basis.

If they don't, do TfL or are you saying you believe no one does?

It wouldn't surprise if there was a contractual obligation but if an eTicket was issued, they would have to accept it as its not the fault of a passenger.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think Merseyrail might be interested to hear what those industry instructions are!

As I mentioned previously, on a case by case basis, Merseyrail have agreed products such as the TfW carnet mTickets. Additionally, a significant volumes of tickets to Liverpool South Parkway (managed by Merseyrail) are issued as e-tickets - I suspect moreso than any other format.

In any event, if you own the flow, I'm not convinced that Merseyrail have any contractually legitimate way of influencing what fulfilment methods are enabled.

Similar situation at Southport, Hunt's Cross.

Merseyrail only cares when tickets are issued for travel on their services (they couldn't care less about tickets that are valid to their stations by other operators). Even then, they only care that tickets aren't issued in significant volumes to cause them hassle, which is why some products are agreed on a case by case basis.

You may think that my expierence is very different

 

[MrJeeves]

Does it end on Merseyrail?

It can do, as it's to Liverpool stations. Only one of the fares for the flow is enabled, hinting that it probably shouldn't be, and the quickest route is generally via Merseyrail.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the crux of this thread is that Merseyrail don't like the 21st Century and will do all they can to stop the use of e-tickets on their network.
However, on journeys where more than one route is possible, and they are one option, they'll tolerate it and accept it.
Because most passengers are now so used to e-tickets, they don't realise Merseyrail are so anti-progress and assume they have an e-ticket, whereas actually they have a TOD, so don't print it. These latest posters are a cack-handed way of dealing with that and just further show what an appalling operator Merseyrail are.
But it's only the passengers who suffer, so nothing will happen.

The e-ticket issue with London is different, in that TfL have no need for e-tickets so why should they pay for all the equipment to accept something they don't use at all

 

[bakerstreet]

I can’t comment about posters’ experiences on Merseyrail because, to the best of my knowledge, I’ve never travelled on a Merseyrail service.

However, quite a few posts in this thread bemoan and criticise Merseyrail for not wanting to modernise, or to join the 21st century or similar spirited responses.

However it’s worth remembering that a vast majority of London/SE TOCS took years to embrace the modern world.

They originally did not like the new (1985) London Transport Travelcard scheme, eventually coming in by agreeing to the Capitalcard (1988).

It took them around 5 years to move towards excepting the new (2003) Oyster (and later contactless).

First they would not accept it at all, then they insisted on Oyster extension permits (OEPs) and finally they dropped that requirement but still refused to enter the Oyster system at existing London Oyster fare scales.

Quite a few Southeast TOCs were being pressurised by (I think?) the DFT in the late 2000s to bring in their own smartcards. But these took ages to be properly installed, switched on and marketed. Even now, there is no one size fits all.

Project Oval remains behind schedule

Railcards still can’t be added to a contactless card.

Railway has a history - as do many other industries and organisations - on waiting prevaricating and finally succumbing to change.

I’m not saying Merseyrail is exemplary, not at all, and its messaging sets a bad example, but it follow behind well worn footsteps.

 

[birchesgreen]

Good to see customers can find out more about why Merseyrail won't accept e-tickets with barcodes by scanning the QR code on the poster.

 

[Djgr]

I can’t comment about posters’ experiences on Merseyrail because, to the best of my knowledge, I’ve never travelled on a Merseyrail service.

However, quite a few posts in this thread bemoan and criticise Merseyrail for not wanting to modernise, or to join the 21st century or similar spirited responses.

However it’s worth remembering that a vast majority of London/SE TOCS took years to embrace the modern world.

They originally did not like the new (1985) London Transport Travelcard scheme, eventually coming in by agreeing to the Capitalcard (1988).

It took them around 5 years to move towards excepting the new (2003) Oyster (and later contactless).

First they would not accept it at all, then they insisted on Oyster extension permits (OEPs) and finally they dropped that requirement but still refused to enter the Oyster system at existing London Oyster fare scales.

Quite a few Southeast TOCs were being pressurised by (I think?) the DFT in the late 2000s to bring in their own smartcards. But these took ages to be properly installed, switched on and marketed. Even now, there is no one size fits all.

Project Oval remains behind schedule

Railcards still can’t be added to a contactless card.

Railway has a history - as do many other industries and organisations - on waiting prevaricating and finally succumbing to change.

I’m not saying Merseyrail is exemplary, not at all, and its messaging sets a bad example, but it follow behind well worn footsteps.

There are plenty of people on this forum gunning for Merseyrail at every opportunity.

My favourite is that they had the audacity to want to modernise toilet facilities and this would (shock horror) require them to be closed whilst this was happening. Presumably people would prefer them to fall into rack and ruin, as per some other TOCs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of people on this forum gunning for Merseyrail at every opportunity.

I find them to be rather good at providing those opportunities, to be honest. They are a terribly managed TOC with quite an attitude. Very much not the nice, friendly place they were in BR days.

My favourite is that they had the audacity to want to modernise toilet facilities and this would (shock horror) require them to be closed whilst this was happening. Presumably people would prefer them to fall into rack and ruin, as per some other TOCs?

It's generally normal when closing toilet facilities that you provide temporary alternatives. Or if you can't (which I dispute, there's plenty of places they could have put some portabogs), what you really don't do is close them at both your major city centre stations at once. You do one then the other.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There are plenty of people on this forum gunning for Merseyrail at every opportunity.

They shouldn't provide so many opportunities then!

What I don't understand is why people think it's best for Merseyrail to not accept e-tickets?

 

[Foxcover]

On the train this evening. No distinction between E Tickets and TOD under 'buying your ticket'

View attachment 155621

Is the last one correct though, or at least incomplete? I thought you did not have to purchase at the intermediate station, if to do so would mean you missed your connection. Example: Heswall (unmanned, no TVM) to Liverpool, often a few minutes late, cross-platform tight advertised connection at Bidston (which has a ticket office on the platform).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the last one correct though, or at least incomplete? I thought you did not have to purchase at the intermediate station, if to do so would mean you missed your connection. Example: Heswall (unmanned, no TVM) to Liverpool, often a few minutes late, changing at Bidston

Correct, you don't have to miss a connection to buy a ticket, but it's questionable whether that includes a non-permitted (i.e. too short) connection - Merseyrail have certainly suggested in the past they don't think it does, regardless of the legalities. But if you can get an itinerary, it's fine to pay later if it wouldn't be possible to do so at the change point without missing it.

 

[cool110]

The main problems with Merseyrail stem from Merseytravel making the concession so long. Go back 10-15 years and it was mostly fine, but now it's falling apart with thing like being the last one left on passenger charter instead of delay repay and ITSO being "the future" rather than e-tickets.

 

[Foxcover]

Correct, you don't have to miss a connection to buy a ticket, but it's questionable whether that includes a non-permitted (i.e. too short) connection - Merseyrail have certainly suggested in the past they don't think it does, regardless of the legalities. But if you can get an itinerary, it's fine to pay later if it wouldn't be possible to do so at the change point without missing it.

Thats what I thought; the poster though says you must always buy your ticket at the intermediate station, so people will miss connections, and I bet RPIs will just issue penalty fares and point to it.

For info though here’s the official timetable showing the Bidston connections - these can be as little as 6 mins advertised connection, which is easily eaten up by waiting 2-3 mins at Bidston junction for the platform, and a small queue at Bidston ticket office.

 

[Jack Hay]

No they really don't, the industry instructions that I confirmed with several TOCs on a recent call is that you cannot enable flows ending on Merseyrail for eTickets

It can happen. I bought an e- ticket to Liverpool Stations. I alighted at Lime Street and went to the underground platform for a train to James Street. The latter is Merseyrail, of course. Barrier staff let me through.

 

[TUC]

No they really don't, the industry instructions that I confirmed with several TOCs on a recent call is that you cannot enable flows ending on Merseyrail for eTickets

But if a passenger nevertheless is issued with one, tough Merseyrail, it's your problem. Get on with it.

 

[sheff1]

No they really don't, the industry instructions that I confirmed with several TOCs on a recent call is that you cannot enable flows ending on Merseyrail for eTickets

I have seen this stated many times, but am routinely offered e tickets from mutiple retailers.

In another sense, very good wording! That's the first poster I've seen to have the correct PF wording as per the legislation. Impressive.

Indeed. On a poster with so many factually incorrect statements it is bizarre that they seem to be the only TOC who have included the correct wording from the legislation.

 

[birchesgreen]

I just checked on the WMR website (which is what i use usually for buying tickets), for a trip to a Merseyrail station only paper tickets (or tickets you can collect anyway) are available.

 

[Adam Williams]

I just checked on the WMR website (which is what i use usually for buying tickets), for a trip to a Merseyrail station only paper tickets (or tickets you can collect anyway) are available.

Ignoring Trainline (who do their own little thing) momentarily, the retailer you buy the tickets from shouldn't make any difference to the availability of E-Tickets. It's all route and ticket dependant.

 

[Skie]

As posted earlier, Milton Keynes Central to Merseyrail stations (not just the Liverpool Stations group) and vice-versa will give you an e-ticket.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Doesn't even need to be anything from miles away. Crewe/Winsford/Hartford etc to Liverpool South Parkway is all issued to e-ticket.

Regardless of what RDG or others say (and I'm dubious about some of the comments made on this forum) - Merseyrail have no right to veto e-ticket availability under any formal industry agreements where there is no validity on Merseyrail.

The TSA is clear on this:

E-Ticket Fares

A Lead Operator may only Create an e-Ticket Fare pursuant to sub-Clause (1) above with the consent of each Operator who receives a Percentage Allocation in respect of the Flow(s) concerned.

If Merseyrail don't get anything from the ORCATS distribution, they can't complain.

Obviously there are a large number of flows where Merseyrail get an absolutely minimal amount and therefore they can object - but there are equally huge numbers of other fares which they get absolutely nothing, especially TOC only fares or route codes that prohibit Merseyrail either on the face of the ticket or in the electronic restrictions.

There are also a large number of tickets that are valid all over the Merseyrail network in various guises that don't result in any revenue being allocated to them, but they have to suck it up unfortunately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As posted earlier, Milton Keynes Central to Merseyrail stations (not just the Liverpool Stations group) and vice-versa will give you an e-ticket.

For me MKC-Aughton Park doesn't and never has. I've bought that fairly often over the years. I tried on both Trainline and LNER.

 

[birchesgreen]

Doesn't even need to be anything from miles away. Crewe/Winsford/Hartford etc to Liverpool South Parkway is all issued to e-ticket.

Because Liverpool South Parkway is not purely a Merseyrail station, what happens if you book from say Crewe to Birkenhead Park?