Merseyrail overcharging Aintree racegoers?

[ForTheLoveOf]

Maybe not, but if you tell them its x+a donation, they'll demand just to pay x.

Equally, if you want to report it go ahead.

I have no doubt next year when the queues are that much longer and they're told it's because they have to give everyone 95p change of a fiver because some people on a forum who aren't affected by this at all and just want another excuse to have a go at the TOCs complained about a fare they don't need to pay themselves, their response would be "cant I just give you the fiver and get on the train"

Why don't we just round down all fares to the nearest £5 or £10 then? Would reduce an awful lot of waiting time in ticket office queues, by that logic.

No, either Merseyrail applies for, and no doubt receives, advance permission to "overcharge" racegoers, or they charge the correct fare - employing sufficient numbers of staff to collect the correct fare from everyone.

 

[6Gman]

Maybe not, but if you tell them its x+a donation, they'll demand just to pay x.

Equally, if you want to report it go ahead.

I have no doubt next year when the queues are that much longer and they're told it's because they have to give everyone 95p change of a fiver because some people on a forum who aren't affected by this at all and just want another excuse to have a go at the TOCs complained about a fare they don't need to pay themselves, their response would be "cant I just give you the fiver and get on the train"

This Forum needs a "like" button!

A complaint to Merseytravel, DfT, ORR or Merseyside Police would be interesting to establish the legal position, but all things considered this week's arrangements do seem to make a lot of (practical) sense.

 

[richw]

There appears to have been option. Therefore no issue, and no reason for outrage.

Queue at the hut for a £5 event ticket, or queue at the normal office for a normal ticket.

 

[Jonfun]

For what it's worth, I agree with those saying that this just isn't on. Folk are very quick to object when passengers use a TVM and end up paying a higher fare because they've not realised the one on the first screen isn't the cheapest. Passengers should be able to turn up and be sold the cheapest ticket for the journey they're making. It's not right that a train company can set an arbitrary fare higher than normal and sell this in preference to the fares which have been agreed and set within the rail industry systems. It isn't the passenger's problem whether the retail staff have sufficient change or not, and it's mostly irrelevant anyway as a significant proportion of people will pay by card.

 

[6Gman]

For what it's worth, I agree with those saying that this just isn't on. Folk are very quick to object when passengers use a TVM and end up paying a higher fare because they've not realised the one on the first screen isn't the cheapest. Passengers should be able to turn up and be sold the cheapest ticket for the journey they're making. It's not right that a train company can set an arbitrary fare higher than normal and sell this in preference to the fares which have been agreed and set within the rail industry systems. It isn't the passenger's problem whether the retail staff have sufficient change or not, and it's mostly irrelevant anyway as a significant proportion of people will pay by card.

As I pointed out earlier the Aintree operation was "cash only".

 

[6Gman]

There appears to have been option. Therefore no issue, and no reason for outrage.

Queue at the hut for a £5 event ticket, or queue at the normal office for a normal ticket.

Actually, there wasn't really an option at Aintree as the ticket office was beyond the queuing area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Get in a job lot of £1 coins and charge £4. Problem solved.

 

[mmh]

There'd presumably be fury on here if people looked at how Transport For London charge one off visitors.

 

[alistairlees]

So far as I know Merseyrail does not have permission to increase this fare from £4.05 to £5.00. Therefore it cannot charge this amount. This is a regulated industry, and there is such a thing as fares regulation - it does not permit a party (such as a TOC) to increase a (regulated) fare arbitrarily. If Merseyrail has indeed introduced a temporary fare (having gone through the appropriate process) for £5.00 then it may do this. If it has not, then it may not. All the comments about change, speed of processing etc. are irrelevant in this context. I do get that they might help with processing large volumes, though there are clearly other ways to do that too (for example, TfL manage far higher volumes every day without any cash changing hands, or without the need to round fares to £5). But nevertheless, it is irrelevant; no TOC is permitted to arbitrarily increase fares, nor to charge different amounts to different groups of customers for the same ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There'd presumably be fury on here if people looked at how Transport For London charge one off visitors.

The same as Londoners, using Oyster or contactless.

Indeed, contactless on Merseyrail would solve the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So far as I know Merseyrail does not have permission to increase this fare from £4.05 to £5.00. Therefore it cannot charge this amount. This is a regulated industry, and there is such a thing as fares regulation - it does not permit a party (such as a TOC) to increase a (regulated) fare arbitrarily. If Merseyrail has indeed introduced a temporary fare (having gone through the appropriate process) for £5.00 then it may do this. If it has not, then it may not. All the comments about change, speed of processing etc. are irrelevant in this context. I do get that they might help with processing large volumes, though there are clearly other ways to do that too (for example, TfL manage far higher volumes every day without any cash changing hands, or without the need to round fares to £5). But nevertheless, it is irrelevant; no TOC is permitted to arbitrarily increase fares, nor to charge different amounts to different groups of customers for the same ticket.

It appears to have introduced a Northern Line only day rover at £5. This might be OK in itself, but is not failure to offer the cheapest through ticket for the requested journey a breach?

 

[mmh]

It's a different ticket, not a ticket sold at a different price.

To those saying "they cannot...", well they clearly can, because they have!

 

[jamesst]

Let's clear a couple of things up here...
It does have permission from Merseytravel to do so, the line is carrying many thousands more than normal and every part is minutely planned involving many different agencies.
Secondly this is NOT the first year this fare has been charged, it's been for at least 3 years now.

 

[mmh]

The same as Londoners, using Oyster or contactless.

Indeed, contactless on Merseyrail would solve the problem.

No, TFL have a visitor travelcard targeted at tourists which has different (worse) conditions than the standard one. It allows them to keep all the revenue from them rather than a proportion of it going to the non-TFL TOCs.

 

[alistairlees]

If it's a different ticket then it's a different matter. Providing they have permission from the grantor of the concession (Merseytravel) then that is fine (except insofar as customers are paying more than they need to; but Merseyrail is absolved for responsibility for that in this case). I had been under the impression from the thread that it was the same ticket, which is not allowed. I wonder what will happen in about 10 years' time though, when the Liverpool - Aintree CDR is greater than £5? Will people be on here arguing that Merseytravel should charge £10? Or round it down to £5?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Charging less is fine. It's charging more I have an issue with.

 

[mmh]

If they charged less this thread would still exist, just with "how dare they fleece racegoers" replaced by "how dare they subsidise racegoers."

 

[jamesst]

If they charged less this thread would still exist, just with "how dare they fleece racegoers" replaced by "how dare they subsidise racegoers."

Spot on!

 

[TUC]

Just how many people these days don’t have a contactless card with them if it helps to get sold a ticket quickly? TfL seem to have little difficulty.

 

[adrock1976]

This does seem to be a strange way of queue management by charging higher fares, which seems to go against the spirit of regulated fares.

 

[sheff1]

There'd presumably be fury on here if people looked at how Transport For London charge one off visitors.

I have attended events in London which have attracted a greater number of visitors than the attendance at Aintree races. I have been charged the same fare as would be charged for the journey if there was no event on. Can you explain why I, or anyone else, should be furious at such charging by TfL ?

 

[sheff1]

I wonder what will happen in about 10 years' time though, when the Liverpool - Aintree CDR is greater than £5? Will people be on here arguing that Merseytravel should charge £10?

I expect so. I am actually surprised they haven't said the fare should be £10 now - after all, most cash machines do not dispense £5 notes and the majority of racegoers are surely more likely to have wads of 10s (or 20s) than fivers.

 

[mmh]

Just how many people these days don’t have a contactless card with them if it helps to get sold a ticket quickly? TfL seem to have little difficulty.

TFL don't sell tickets quickly, far from it. They have a system designed to avoid tickets, which happily charges thousands of people all year round more than they need to pay.

Three days of a single event once a year with a single journey in Liverpool is in no way comparable.

 

[infobleep]

Maybe not, but if you tell them its x+a donation, they'll demand just to pay x.

Equally, if you want to report it go ahead.

I have no doubt next year when the queues are that much longer and they're told it's because they have to give everyone 95p change of a fiver because some people on a forum who aren't affected by this at all and just want another excuse to have a go at the TOCs complained about a fare they don't need to pay themselves, their response would be "cant I just give you the fiver and get on the train"

I'm not saying I wish to report it but I do enjoy debating the opposing view.

If as people suggest, they should give the money to charity. Perhaps they could do this without telling people.

 

[6Gman]

Just how many people these days don’t have a contactless card with them if it helps to get sold a ticket quickly? TfL seem to have little difficulty.

I refer the Hon Member to the information above. At Aintree - at least - it was "cash only".

Although card transactions were potentially available at the booking office this was not an option during the peak period as the booking office was beyond the queuing area.

 

[Starmill]

I find it very telling that some people genuinely think that speedier payments with cash than with card are a good justification for an underhanded price increase. I wonder how much public support there really would be for that idea?

I propose that all fuel filling stations in the country should round the bill up to the nearest £5 for the sake of payment convenience after you've dispensed fuel. How would you feel about that? Indeed, the what might the tabloids have to say about that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find it very telling that some people genuinely think that speedier payments with cash than with card are a good justification for an underhanded price increase. I wonder how much public support there really would be for that idea?

Well, quite.

As the correct ticket (once Friday 0930 had passed) cost £4, a bucket of £1 coins would have solved the issue and made things not significantly slower.

 

[6Gman]

I find it very telling that some people genuinely think that speedier payments with cash than with card are a good justification for an underhanded price increase. I wonder how much public support there really would be for that idea?

I propose that all fuel filling stations in the country should round the bill up to the nearest £5 for the sake of payment convenience after you've dispensed fuel. How would you feel about that? Indeed, the what might the tabloids have to say about that?

If there were 5,000 cars an hour being fuelled I might well consider it worthwhile.

 

[Starmill]

If there is such a critical mass of people attending the Aintree dates that use Merseyrail to do so, and this is sufficient that Merseyrail are called upon to effectively re-write their timetable for a few days to achieve it, then having people queuing for tickets seems ludicrous anyway. If the claims being made are true, then the obvious solution for convenience is to add £5.30 to the price of all Aintree tickets and for Merseyrail to accept race tickets in their trains all day.

Surely Merseyrail would be happy with this because it cuts down on cost and queuing. Of course it might negatively impact sales of race tickets a tiny amount for those who are insistant on using a car, but it would boost their green credentials. Some residual passengers using the bus might be disadvantaged slightly if an agreement cannot be made for race tickets to include bus travel on routes to Aintree.

 

[gingerheid]

I've no doubt next year when the queues are that much longer and they're told it's because they have to give everyone 95p change of a fiver because some people on a forum who aren't affected by this at all and just want another excuse to have a go at the TOCs complained about a fare they don't need to pay themselves, their response would be "cant I just give you the fiver and get on the train"

So they should give people the choice (I accept most people woyld take it), and then it would magically be ok, as opposed to dishonest and likely to be a fraud offence.