Merseyrail / Trainline disconnect

[MTDar82]

Hello
I have a story, but looking through previous responses it seems I have made a mistake. I boarded a train at Chester passing through the barriers with the return portion of a ticket back to Liverpool issued by TFW. I don't live in either of these places and it's not part of the network I use often. When I realised that the train I was attempting to board - which was on the platform ready to depart in the next minute or two - was Merseyrail not TFW I opened the trainline app and bought a single ticket for the train that I was boarding. Recognising that the payment had been taken by a notification on my phone, *for the train I was boarding*, I assumed I was good to go. I imagine you know what's coming. When I was asked to show my ticket I confidently opened the app only to realise that for this journey I needed to print the ticket - which, as a highly regular user of the trainline app (most workdays) I have never ever been asked to do. The train staff pratcically rubbed their hands together and summoned their colleague, both of them stood over me to ensure maximum intimidation while I tried to explain I had already paid not once but twice (Merseyrail & TFW). They could not have cared less and proceeded to treat me like a criminal, demanding my name, address, date of birth, height (!!) and issued me with a penalty fine and a (third) fare for whatever station we were up to.

I pointed out that the station I was travelling to has barriers and surely I could just print out the ticket at that end, that was no good to them because they said the ticket would just be refunded if I didn't do that - which I obviously couldn't do, due to barriers. They then proceded to advise me not to print out the ticket I had purchased and it would just be refunded on the app. This made no sense to me because if I received a refund then I would definitely have done the thought crime that they were accusing me of. So I got out at the station and stood in a line of people paying for their tickets at the other end - no penalty fares for them, obviously - and got the ticket printed.

I was so incensed by all of this and as it was late at night and I'm a woman travelling by myself in an unfamiliar part of the country, I genuinely felt like I'd been mugged. I went into a panic attack everytime I tried to deal with it over the next few days and I thought I'd just leave it till I felt calmer. (I have been suffering with a great deal of anxiety this year and have been to the doctor about it and everything.) They had explained to me that if I appealled within 21 days it would be half etc; what they didn't actually explain is that I only had 21 days to appeal at all, so I missed the deadline. I then received a letter saying I'd have to pay, which again, I didn't answer because I was at a loss to know what to do, and yes, I see that that has scuppered me. Now I have received court papers. If I'd known about this forum before I would have probably just paid it, even though I still don't see that I've done anything wrong and am absolutely appalled that Merseyrail can continue to get away with as much as they evidently do.

My question is really is there anything I can do at this stage? Having read through some of the posts on here I assume not, but honest to god, HOW are they allowed to terrorize paying customers like this? Why does the ombudsman allow it to go on?

TIA.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello
I have a story, but looking through previous responses it seems I have made a mistake. I boarded a train at Chester passing through the barriers with the return portion of a ticket back to Liverpool issued by TFW. I don't live in either of these places and it's not part of the network I use often. When I realised that the train I was attempting to board - which was on the platform ready to depart in the next minute or two - was Merseyrail not TFW I opened the trainline app and bought a single ticket for the train that I was boarding. Recognising that the payment had been taken by a notification on my phone, *for the train I was boarding*, I assumed I was good to go. I imagine you know what's coming. When I was asked to show my ticket I confidently opened the app only to realise that for this journey I needed to print the ticket - which, as a highly regular user of the trainline app (most workdays) I have never ever been asked to do. The train staff pratcically rubbed their hands together and summoned their colleague, both of them stood over me to ensure maximum intimidation while I tried to explain I had already paid not once but twice (Merseyrail & TFW). They could not have cared less and proceeded to treat me like a criminal, demanding my name, address, date of birth, height (!!) and issued me with a penalty fine and a (third) fare for whatever station we were up to.

I pointed out that the station I was travelling to has barriers and surely I could just print out the ticket at that end, that was no good to them because they said the ticket would just be refunded if I didn't do that - which I obviously couldn't do, due to barriers. They then proceded to advise me not to print out the ticket I had purchased and it would just be refunded on the app. This made no sense to me because if I received a refund then I would definitely have done the thought crime that they were accusing me of. So I got out at the station and stood in a line of people paying for their tickets at the other end - no penalty fares for them, obviously - and got the ticket printed.

I was so incensed by all of this and as it was late at night and I'm a woman travelling by myself in an unfamiliar part of the country, I genuinely felt like I'd been mugged. I went into a panic attack everytime I tried to deal with it over the next few days and I thought I'd just leave it till I felt calmer. (I have been suffering with a great deal of anxiety this year and have been to the doctor about it and everything.) They had explained to me that if I appealled within 21 days it would be half etc; what they didn't actually explain is that I only had 21 days to appeal at all, so I missed the deadline. I then received a letter saying I'd have to pay, which again, I didn't answer because I was at a loss to know what to do, and yes, I see that that has scuppered me. Now I have received court papers. If I'd known about this forum before I would have probably just paid it, even though I still don't see that I've done anything wrong and am absolutely appalled that Merseyrail can continue to get away with as much as they evidently do.

My question is really is there anything I can do at this stage? Having read through some of the posts on here I assume not, but honest to god, HOW are they allowed to terrorize paying customers like this? Why does the ombudsman allow it to go on?

TIA.

Hi - you have my sympathy

I think people are going to ask you to upload copies of all the paperwork associated with this (including the tickets you bought if possible) with your personal details blanked out so forum members can understand exactly what has happened and where things are now at.

But in order to clarify is the following correct?

- you were issued with a Penalty Fare by Merseyrail (presumably because they don't accept e tickets of the sort you bought
- you did not Appeal the Penalty Fare or pay it within the 21 days to Appeal or to secure a 50% discount on the Penalty fare for prompt payment (so it would have been £50)
- You have not responded to letters sent you by Merseyrail?
- they have escalated the case to court and are now prosecuting you

what was your date of travel?
When is the court date?

This sounds to me like you now need a damage limitation plan to avoid court prosecution and a potential criminal record - I think this should be your focus. Sadly this will probably cost more than the Penalty Fare even at the full £100 rate.

Hopefully people can advise you what to do next, but it is probably a case of ungently contacting Merservrail to see if they will now at this stage allow you to settle the matter out of court and drop the prosecution.

But it may be that if the Penalty Fare should not have been issued in the first place there are other options, but they may be more difficult to pursue now if the courts are involved.

 

[MTDar82]

Hi - you have my sympathy

I think people are going to ask you to upload copies of all the paperwork associated with this (including the tickets you bought if possible) with your personal details blanked out so forum members can understand exactly what has happened and where things are now at.

But in order to clarify is the following correct?

- you were issued with a Penalty Fare by Merseyrail (presumably because they don't accept e tickets of the sort you bought
- you did not Appeal the Penalty Fare or pay it within the 21 days to Appeal or to secure a 50% discount on the Penalty fare for prompt payment (so it would have been £50)
- You have not responded to letters sent you by Merseyrail?
- they have escalated the case to court and are now prosecuting you

what was your date of travel?
When is the court date?

This sounds to me like you now need a damage limitation plan to avoid court prosecution and a potential criminal record - I think this should be your focus. Sadly this will probably cost more than the Penalty Fare even at the full £100 rate.

Hopefully people can advise you what to do next, but it is probably a case of ungently contacting Merservrail to see if they will now at this stage allow you to settle the matter out of court and drop the prosecution.

But it may be that if the Penalty Fare should not have been issued in the first place there are other options, but they may be more difficult to pursue now if the courts are involved.

Thank you - yes, those points are correct. The date of travel was mid July and I've been told to respond to court papers by 8 October I think? I don't think it specified a court date although I don't have it with me to check.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum - sorry to hear of the circumstances that have brought you here.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say "the return portion of a ticket back to Liverpool issued by TfW"? By any chance, did you have an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket showing "via Runcorn" or "valid only via Runcorn"? A picture of the ticket, or a copy of the booking confirmation including the price, would be very useful here. Similarly with the paperwork you have received - please upload a copy with your personal details (reference number, name, exact date/time etc.) redacted.

Did you show your TfW ticket to the staff on the Merseyrail train at any stage? If you did, they probably shouldn't have penalised you - it's unlikely you did anything wrong. All you needed to do was to pay the difference (excess) between the "via Runcorn" fare, and the "via Birkenhead" fare that's valid on Merseyrail.* The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) explicitly permit you to pay this difference onboard the train - and do not permit train companies to issue Penalty Fares for travelling on the "wrong" route.

If, however, you didn't show your TfW ticket then the situation is more complex. Arguably you would not be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) of the Merseyrail Byelaws (which is, presumably, what they are prosecuting you for - could you clarify?) as you did have a valid ticket "with you" when you boarded - the TfW ticket, which merely required payment of a small excess. However you could still be in breach of Byelaw 18(2), which requires you to "hand over [your] ticket", if you didn't hand any ticket to the staff. The Trainline booking confirmation is, unfortunately, not a ticket as you have found out.

It does all seem extremely unreasonable, but sadly Merseyrail are not a passenger friendly company at all. They refuse to allow retailers to issue eTickets for most journeys on their network, and have form for pursuing and penalising people who fall into the same trap as you - buying tickets online for collection, but not collecting them before they board. They make excuses for both policies but frankly these don't stand up to scrutiny. Unfortunately none of this changes the legal position, which is that you may have committed an offence despite having paid the fare twice over!

*Arguably the "via Runcorn" fare is also valid via Birkenhead due to the "split route check" (the TfW fare is routed "via Runcorn", and Chester to Runcorn is permitted via all permitted routes to Liverpool, including Birkenhead), but it's a somewhat technical argument which may be difficult to get anyone at Merseyrail to accept - the alternative seemingly now being to go to Court.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you - yes, those points are correct. The date of travel was mid July and I've been told to respond to court papers by 8 October I think? I don't think it specified a court date although I don't have it with me to check.

Thanks - you can get some really good advice here (eg see the v helpful post from Watershed) but it's going to be vital for people to see the paperwork - so when you get a chance ASAP it will be good for you to upload copies of it. Remember to cover up your personal details.

That may help you construct a letter to Merseyrail in the hope that things can get moved in a better direction before the court response deadline

 

[MTDar82]

Welcome to the forum - sorry to hear of the circumstances that have brought you here.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say "the return portion of a ticket back to Liverpool issued by TfW"? By any chance, did you have an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket showing "via Runcorn" or "valid only via Runcorn"? A picture of the ticket, or a copy of the booking confirmation including the price, would be very useful here. Similarly with the paperwork you have received - please upload a copy with your personal details (reference number, name, exact date/time etc.) redacted.

Did you show your TfW ticket to the staff on the Merseyrail train at any stage? If you did, they probably shouldn't have penalised you - it's unlikely you did anything wrong. All you needed to do was to pay the difference (excess) between the "via Runcorn" fare, and the "via Birkenhead" fare that's valid on Merseyrail.* The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) explicitly permit you to pay this difference onboard the train - and do not permit train companies to issue Penalty Fares for travelling on the "wrong" route.

If, however, you didn't show your TfW ticket then the situation is more complex. Arguably you would not be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) of the Merseyrail Byelaws (which is, presumably, what they are prosecuting you for - could you clarify?) as you did have a valid ticket "with you" when you boarded - the TfW ticket, which merely required payment of a small excess. However you could still be in breach of Byelaw 18(2), which requires you to "hand over [your] ticket", if you didn't hand any ticket to the staff. The Trainline booking confirmation is, unfortunately, not a ticket as you have found out.

It does all seem extremely unreasonable, but sadly Merseyrail are not a passenger friendly company at all. They refuse to allow retailers to issue eTickets for most journeys on their network, and have form for pursuing and penalising people who fall into the same trap as you - buying tickets online for collection, but not collecting them before they board. They make excuses for both policies but frankly these don't stand up to scrutiny. Unfortunately none of this changes the legal position, which is that you may have committed an offence despite having paid the fare twice over!

*Arguably the "via Runcorn" fare is also valid via Birkenhead due to the "split route check" (the TfW fare is routed "via Runcorn", and Chester to Runcorn is permitted via all permitted routes to Liverpool, including Birkenhead), but it's a somewhat technical argument which may be difficult to get anyone at Merseyrail to accept - the alternative seemingly now being to go to Court.

Yes, I did have an open return via Runcorn, that's how I realised my ticket was not valid. I definitely showed it to them because then they started telling me 'Well that's like buying a Ryanair ticket and trying to use it on an Easyj - ' And I say 'I KNOW that, that is why I have paid for a Merseyrail ticket as well!'

 

[WirralLine]

Can you clarify what you mean when you say "the return portion of a ticket back to Liverpool issued by TfW"? By any chance, did you have an Off-Peak or Anytime ticket showing "via Runcorn" or "valid only via Runcorn"? A picture of the ticket, or a copy of the booking confirmation including the price, would be very useful here. Similarly with the paperwork you have received - please upload a copy with your personal details (reference number, name, exact date/time etc.) redacted.

Did you show your TfW ticket to the staff on the Merseyrail train at any stage? If you did, they probably shouldn't have penalised you - it's unlikely you did anything wrong. All you needed to do was to pay the difference (excess) between the "via Runcorn" fare, and the "via Birkenhead" fare that's valid on Merseyrail.* The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) explicitly permit you to pay this difference onboard the train - and do not permit train companies to issue Penalty Fares for travelling on the "wrong" route.

Technically yes but there was a case on this forum recently where the exact same had happened - Ie somebody using a "via Runcorn" ticket on a Merseyrail service and was issued a penalty fare - not an excess - and then had to argue their case through various appeals to convince them to drop it. Can't remember the outcome now.

It would be helpful to see which ticket you held - sometimes if you book a ticket online which involves Chester to Liverpool (or vice versa) it is possible to be issued an off peak/anytime any route permitted ticket in digital form which IS valid on Merseyrail. This is usually the case if you book a journey with an itinerary involving the TFW Liverpool service, but occasionally you are issued a ticket which is valid on Merseyrail too. If of course it is a "via Runcorn" or "Advance" (booked train only) ticket then it would not be valid on Merseyrail.

If it is a via Runcorn off peak/anytime, then only the excess is due and the penalty fare would have been incorrectly issued. If however it is a booked train/specific time advance ticket for the TFW service then I believe a penalty fare would be the correct option. Of course if you didn't present your "TFW" ticket to the revenue inspectors then as Watershed says above, it becomes more complex as none of the above would be relevant.

Sorry if this is confusing!

 

[MTDar82]

Thanks - you can get some really good advice here (eg see the v helpful post from Watershed) but it's going to be vital for people to see the paperwork - so when you get a chance ASAP it will be good for you to upload copies of it. Remember to cover up your personal details.

That may help you construct a letter to Merseyrail in the hope that things can get moved in a better direction before the court response deadline

Yes I will try to do that this afternoon if I can.

Technically yes but there was a case on this forum recently where the exact same had happened - Ie somebody using a "via Runcorn" ticket on a Merseyrail service and was issued a penalty fare - not an excess - and then had to argue their case through various appeals to convince them to drop it. Can't remember the outcome now.

It would be helpful to see which ticket you held - sometimes if you book a ticket online which involves Chester to Liverpool (or vice versa) it is possible to be issued an off peak/anytime any route permitted ticket in digital form which IS valid on Merseyrail. This is usually the case if you book a journey with an itinerary involving the TFW Liverpool service, but occasionally you are issued a ticket which is valid on Merseyrail too. If of course it is a "via Runcorn" or "Advance" (booked train only) ticket then it would not be valid on Merseyrail.

If it is a via Runcorn off peak/anytime, then only the excess is due and the penalty fare would have been incorrectly issued. If however it is a booked train/specific time advance ticket for the TFW service then I believe a penalty fare would be the correct option.

Sorry if this is confusing!

I think I understand but it was definitely an open return (via Runcorn). Looking for it now.

 

[gray1404]

Did you show the return portion of the ticket that you held to the Merseyrail staff? If you could confirm what sort of ticket this was and if you showed it then it may be that only an excess was payable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you show the return portion of the ticket that you held to the Merseyrail staff? If you could confirm what sort of ticket this was and if you showed it then it may be that only an excess was payable.

The OP says they did and that the Merseyrail incompetents came up with some stupid story about it being like using a Ryanair ticket on easyJet (it's not). You can't expect Merseyrail RPIs to their job correctly, the standard of training is appalling. My experience of one that didn't know what a Saveaway was told me all I needed to know.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, I did have an open return via Runcorn, that's how I realised my ticket was not valid. I definitely showed it to them because then they started telling me 'Well that's like buying a Ryanair ticket and trying to use it on an Easyj - ' And I say 'I KNOW that, that is why I have paid for a Merseyrail ticket as well!'

Ok, in that case they were bang out of order to be issuing a Penalty Fare or indeed to be prosecuting you. The comparison with low cost airlines simply isn't valid - they are competing airlines with no commercial agreements between each other.

By contrast, the various train companies all form part of one National Rail network. When you hold a National Rail ticket, this is issued under the NRCoT - which all train companies (including Merseyrail) are signatories to.

NRCoT condition 9.5.2 sets out the procedure for when you use an (otherwise valid) ticket on the wrong route:

Where you:
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid;
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

This is in clear contrast to other conditions which say you are treated as travelling without a valid ticket. Notably, 9.5.2 is under the same condition as 9.2, which mentions the right of train companies to issue Penalty Fares or prosecute. Therefore it's clear that the intention here is that you cannot be penalised or prosecuted in these circumstances.

This change was brought about by complaints about passengers being unfairly penalised for making a minor mistake, and yet that's exactly what Merseyrail are doing now.

As for your next steps, it's a bit of a tricky one. Legally speaking you are in the right - but it seems unlikely that Merseyrail will drop the case, as they have proven incredibly obstinate and unwilling to change their mind once they've decided on bringing a prosecution - see for example this thread where @Hodgs0 was falsely prosecuted. @KirkstallOne had a similar experience with Northern, albeit arising from different circumstances.

So unfortunately the only risk-free option here would be to try and negotiate an out of court settlement with Merseyrail. They may still be amenable to this, although having started a prosecution you can expect them to try and charge you more for their "costs" (even though the figures given often seem wildly inflated and out of proportion with the rubber-stamping done to bring a particular case).

If you do want to plead "not guilty" and fight the prosecution, we will of course be able to advise you on the best steps forward. But unless you are very confident of your ability to defend yourself, you will probably want legal representation. That will not come cheaply and unfortunately there is no guarantee you will be able to claim all (let alone any) of your costs back even if you are successful.

The system is rigged incredibly unfairly in favour of train companies, and despite the recent news about thousands of unlawful prosecutions, there seems to be little prospect of change.

 

[185143]

The OP says they did and that the Merseyrail incompetents came up with some stupid story about it being like using a Ryanair ticket on easyJet (it's not). You can't expect Merseyrail RPIs to their job correctly, the standard of training is appalling. My experience of one that didn't know what a Saveaway was told me all I needed to know.

Not just RPIs.

I was very, very reluctantly allowed travel at Liverpool Central once with a Saveaway I'd purchased (for convenience!) from a TPE guard on the train to Liverpool that morning.

The guard must have been Sheffield based, and it was a bog roll ticket which said "Issued at Sheffield DS" or something similar on it, whilst clearly stating "MTRAV ALL AREAS SAVEAWAY". They were trying to insist it was only valid in Sheffield as it said Sheffield on the ticket and obviously couldn't be scanned on their barriers.

I was tempted to summon over the BTP that were in the vicinity, though I suspected they'd just back up the gateline employee as, to be fair, ticketing isn't really their priority.

I do feel sorry for some of the staff really, as the person I was dealing with clearly genuinely believed they were in the right and was at least being respectful in the way they were trying to refuse me. Unlike some of the onboard staff who it's often reported, and probably accurately in fairness, seem to enjoy pouncing on people with what they perceived to be an invalid ticket-wether it actually is or not. So it must be a training issue.

 

[MTDar82]

Ok, in that case they were bang out of order to be issuing a Penalty Fare or indeed to be prosecuting you. The comparison with low cost airlines simply isn't valid - they are competing airlines with no commercial agreements between each other.

By contrast, the various train companies all form part of one National Rail network. When you hold a National Rail ticket, this is issued under the NRCoT - which all train companies (including Merseyrail) are signatories to.

NRCoT condition 9.5.2 sets out the procedure for when you use an (otherwise valid) ticket on the wrong route:


This is in clear contrast to other conditions which say you are treated as travelling without a valid ticket. Notably, 9.5.2 is under the same condition as 9.2, which mentions the right of train companies to issue Penalty Fares or prosecute. Therefore it's clear that the intention here is that you cannot be penalised or prosecuted in these circumstances.

This change was brought about by complaints about passengers being unfairly penalised for making a minor mistake, and yet that's exactly what Merseyrail are doing now.

As for your next steps, it's a bit of a tricky one. Legally speaking you are in the right - but it seems unlikely that Merseyrail will drop the case, as they have proven incredibly obstinate and unwilling to change their mind once they've decided on bringing a prosecution - see for example this thread where @Hodgs0 was falsely prosecuted. @KirkstallOne had a similar experience with Northern, albeit arising from different circumstances.

So unfortunately the only risk-free option here would be to try and negotiate an out of court settlement with Merseyrail. They may still be amenable to this, although having started a prosecution you can expect them to try and charge you more for their "costs" (even though the figures given often seem wildly inflated and out of proportion with the rubber-stamping done to bring a particular case).

If you do want to plead "not guilty" and fight the prosecution, we will of course be able to advise you on the best steps forward. But unless you are very confident of your ability to defend yourself, you will probably want legal representation. That will not come cheaply and unfortunately there is no guarantee you will be able to claim all (let alone any) of your costs back even if you are successful.

The system is rigged incredibly unfairly in favour of train companies, and despite the recent news about thousands of unlawful prosecutions, there seems to be little prospect of change.

This seems like really great advice, thank you for taking the time to give it. It seems like I should try and settle out of court first - if they dig their heels in I would be inclined to plead not guilty though - on the basis that I'm actually not guilty and this very strong evidence you've helped with here. I will have a think about legal representation in the meantime, should it come to it. Incidentally, the 'out of court offer' letter arrived at my house two weeks ago today, with a 14 day window on it, and the court papers arrived yesterday - so 13 days between letters although not dates (2nd Sept / 17 Sept). I don't know bow they managed to get the postal system to rig that for them. Not that that is going to be relevant, I suppose.

 

[MTDar82]

Not just RPIs.

I was very, very reluctantly allowed travel at Liverpool Central once with a Saveaway I'd purchased (for convenience!) from a TPE guard on the train to Liverpool that morning.

The guard must have been Sheffield based, and it was a bog roll ticket which said "Issued at Sheffield DS" or something similar on it, whilst clearly stating "MTRAV ALL AREAS SAVEAWAY". They were trying to insist it was only valid in Sheffield as it said Sheffield on the ticket and obviously couldn't be scanned on their barriers.

I was tempted to summon over the BTP that were in the vicinity, though I suspected they'd just back up the gateline employee as, to be fair, ticketing isn't really their priority.

I do feel sorry for some of the staff really, as the person I was dealing with clearly genuinely believed they were in the right and was at least being respectful in the way they were trying to refuse me. Unlike some of the onboard staff who it's often reported, and probably accurately in fairness, seem to enjoy pouncing on people with what they perceived to be an invalid ticket-wether it actually is or not. So it must be a training issue.

These guys 100% pounced, and were like a dog with a bone. They fully harangued me for about 20 minutes. I wish they'd consider the impact they're having on people. I haven't slept and even had a full blown panic attack and was struggling to breathe while writing this out today.

Ok, in that case they were bang out of order to be issuing a Penalty Fare or indeed to be prosecuting you. The comparison with low cost airlines simply isn't valid - they are competing airlines with no commercial agreements between each other.

By contrast, the various train companies all form part of one National Rail network. When you hold a National Rail ticket, this is issued under the NRCoT - which all train companies (including Merseyrail) are signatories to.

NRCoT condition 9.5.2 sets out the procedure for when you use an (otherwise valid) ticket on the wrong route:


This is in clear contrast to other conditions which say you are treated as travelling without a valid ticket. Notably, 9.5.2 is under the same condition as 9.2, which mentions the right of train companies to issue Penalty Fares or prosecute. Therefore it's clear that the intention here is that you cannot be penalised or prosecuted in these circumstances.

This change was brought about by complaints about passengers being unfairly penalised for making a minor mistake, and yet that's exactly what Merseyrail are doing now.

As for your next steps, it's a bit of a tricky one. Legally speaking you are in the right - but it seems unlikely that Merseyrail will drop the case, as they have proven incredibly obstinate and unwilling to change their mind once they've decided on bringing a prosecution - see for example this thread where @Hodgs0 was falsely prosecuted. @KirkstallOne had a similar experience with Northern, albeit arising from different circumstances.

So unfortunately the only risk-free option here would be to try and negotiate an out of court settlement with Merseyrail. They may still be amenable to this, although having started a prosecution you can expect them to try and charge you more for their "costs" (even though the figures given often seem wildly inflated and out of proportion with the rubber-stamping done to bring a particular case).

If you do want to plead "not guilty" and fight the prosecution, we will of course be able to advise you on the best steps forward. But unless you are very confident of your ability to defend yourself, you will probably want legal representation. That will not come cheaply and unfortunately there is no guarantee you will be able to claim all (let alone any) of your costs back even if you are successful.

The system is rigged incredibly unfairly in favour of train companies, and despite the recent news about thousands of unlawful prosecutions, there seems to be little prospect of change.

Sorry, I'm just at work but trying to read the first thread you cited - this person hadn't actually paid (or had the opportunity to) but I had. Would that make a difference, do you think?

 

[Hadders]

Technically yes but there was a case on this forum recently where the exact same had happened - Ie somebody using a "via Runcorn" ticket on a Merseyrail service and was issued a penalty fare - not an excess - and then had to argue their case through various appeals to convince them to drop it. Can't remember the outcome now.

I remember that case and Merseyrail did eventually give in.

Edit:
Here’s the thread from earlier in the year. Has some similarities to this one. The 2nd stage appeal was successful:

Penalty fare for wrong ticket, potentially off route

I would also be clear about there being no requirement for an excess to be obtained before boarding the train.

www.railforums.co.uk

We need to know exactly what ticket the OP held and whether they showed it when they were asked for their ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, in that case they were bang out of order to be issuing a Penalty Fare or indeed to be prosecuting you. The comparison with low cost airlines simply isn't valid - they are competing airlines with no commercial agreements between each other.

By contrast, the various train companies all form part of one National Rail network. When you hold a National Rail ticket, this is issued under the NRCoT - which all train companies (including Merseyrail) are signatories to.

NRCoT condition 9.5.2 sets out the procedure for when you use an (otherwise valid) ticket on the wrong route:


This is in clear contrast to other conditions which say you are treated as travelling without a valid ticket. Notably, 9.5.2 is under the same condition as 9.2, which mentions the right of train companies to issue Penalty Fares or prosecute. Therefore it's clear that the intention here is that you cannot be penalised or prosecuted in these circumstances.

This change was brought about by complaints about passengers being unfairly penalised for making a minor mistake, and yet that's exactly what Merseyrail are doing now.

As for your next steps, it's a bit of a tricky one. Legally speaking you are in the right - but it seems unlikely that Merseyrail will drop the case, as they have proven incredibly obstinate and unwilling to change their mind once they've decided on bringing a prosecution - see for example this thread where @Hodgs0 was falsely prosecuted. @KirkstallOne had a similar experience with Northern, albeit arising from different circumstances.

So unfortunately the only risk-free option here would be to try and negotiate an out of court settlement with Merseyrail. They may still be amenable to this, although having started a prosecution you can expect them to try and charge you more for their "costs" (even though the figures given often seem wildly inflated and out of proportion with the rubber-stamping done to bring a particular case).

If you do want to plead "not guilty" and fight the prosecution, we will of course be able to advise you on the best steps forward. But unless you are very confident of your ability to defend yourself, you will probably want legal representation. That will not come cheaply and unfortunately there is no guarantee you will be able to claim all (let alone any) of your costs back even if you are successful.

The system is rigged incredibly unfairly in favour of train companies, and despite the recent news about thousands of unlawful prosecutions, there seems to be little prospect of change.

It strikes me that @MTDar82 is going to need help with a polite, but firm draft of a letter to send to Merseyrail Prosecution team setting out why

a) a Penalty Fare should not have been issued in the first place, but instead an Excess Fare charged by the staff who checked the tickets on the train in the first place
b) that this should accordingly not have progressed to prosecution and can the prosecution now be withdrawn
and
c) include an offer to pay any excess fare owed

citing the relevant conditions of travel that oblige Merseyrail to offer the Excess fare option, not issue a Penalty Fare

@MTDar82 still needs to upload all paperwork / tickets etc here so that it can be checked that what is being assumed here on the forum is in fact correct before sending such a letter to their Prosecutions Team

The court paperwork does not have to be returned for a little while yet so there is time to see if they will withdraw it before making the decision to plead I would think.

 

[MTDar82]

Sorry I'm just in the process of gathering up the paperwork to post here - as I say, I'm just at work rn.

 

[John R]

Hopefully the OP still has the ticket via Runcorn which they showed to the inspectors. With the anecdote about airlines, it’s clear they showed a ticket and should have been allowed to pay the difference in line with NRCoT.

 

[MTDar82]

This is the ticket I showed them. Not sure how to prove that I did, mind you.

 

[185143]

This is the ticket I showed them. Not sure how to prove that I did, mind you.

They presumably would have bodycam footage?

 

[MTDar82]

Sorry to be slow with this. Really appreciate your help.

penalty fare and court letters.

 

[WesternLancer]

They presumably would have bodycam footage?

Not the immediate problem - after all they might need to prove the OP did not show the ticket

Sorry to be slow with this. Really appreciate your help.

penalty fare and court letters.

so after a v brief look at these it looks like options are probably

a) try to persuade them the Penalty Fare should never have been issued because an Excess Fare should have been issued and thus persuade them to withdraw the court action and let you pay the Excess Fare that is still owed (if that worked then you would not have much money to pay)

b) try to persuade them to allow you to still pay the Out of Court settlement sum they offered but you didn't pay in the time frame they asked (if they will now agree to do it)

c) plead not guilty, go to court, and try to persuade the magistrates that you are not guilty because (a) above should have been the correct course of action taken by Merseyrail. Not to make any judgment, but given what you have said about how anxious this all may make you, you might well not want to put yourself through that.

 

[furlong]

Please would you fill in the missing words on the right of Court2.jpg? Does it say the Penalty Fare has or has not been withdrawn?

Also, is there another bit of paper that states under what legislation you are being prosecuted? "Failed to Produce (PFN)" sounds like a database field.

 

[MTDar82]

Has been withdrawn

Please would you fill in the missing words on the right of Court2.jpg? Does it say the Penalty Fare has or has not been withdrawn?

Also, is there another bit of paper that states under what legislation you are being prosecuted? "Failed to Produce (PFN)" sounds like a database field.

I don't see one but I have found a witness statement in this pile of bumf saying the penalty notice was issued under 'no ticket' which is not the case as I did have the conversation about Ryanair. Penalty withdrawn 30th August it says.

 

[gray1404]

Can you please upload copies of all of the documents in their entirety. Not just parts of them or with words missing from the picture. Including the witness statement and the complete penalty fare notice. Everything please.

 

[island]

Please would you fill in the missing words on the right of Court2.jpg? Does it say the Penalty Fare has or has not been withdrawn?

There's a long stem just visible which would point towards it being a b rather than an n.

 

[MTDar82]

There's a long stem just visible which would point towards it being a b rather than an n.

Yes it says has been, as above

Can you please upload copies of all of the documents in their entirety. Not just parts of them or with words missing from the picture. Including the witness statement and the complete penalty fare notice. Everything please.

Yes, sorry, I will do, I've been at work all day and was trying to get bits together of what I had. I've not even had a chance to look at all the pages yet - I thought they'd sent me a load of forms to fill it but the witness statement was at the back of them. I'll upload it as soon as I can.

 

[furlong]

If it has been withdrawn, that is crucial to know because it means the Penalty Fare aspect of the situation can be completely disregarded now. (This is however a strange way to tell you that fact - there should have been a separate letter or mention in a covering letter that they have cancelled that debt.)

There must be something in the paperwork that cites the precise legislation being used.

(If there isn't, might that be evidence to support malicious prosecution? The words come from 5(1) but they must be well aware by now that they cannot use that in a situation such as this, so maybe if they just don't mention that number nobody will notice?)

 

[MTDar82]

They have cancelled the penalty fare on 30th August and then sent me the out of court settlement letter on 2nd Sept for the sum of £125 or whatever that was - I can't see it at the mo because I'm on a train and I don't have it with me. I'll check when I get home.

 

[gray1404]

Get a good night's sleep and come back a fresh to this tomorrow.

We can help you prepare a letter to Merseyrail stating that you should only have been charged an excess of 50p.

We can also help you think about your defence and who will represent in court if it comes to that.

For future reference, if you are making this journey again the cheapest option is a Merseyrail day saver. £6.20 and this can only be purchased at the station or on the Merseyrail website. https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver/