Merseyrail / Trainline disconnect

[MTDar82]

I am sorry this happened to you, i feel your pain the same thing happened to my friend and i last Saturday and spoiled the evening tbh. i've always know they don't accept digital tickets and you have to print off, but i assumed i could get a ticket on the train or buy one when i got there because i have done this before and they didn't fine me then, also when i have got to liverpool they have let me print the ticket out in the shop nearby. So we got fined and the lady my friend spoke to was so rude, patronising and intimidating. I've paid the fine because i know i won't win an appeal, its not worth the hassle. I don't get why they have to intimidate people, i will put a complaint in based on the lady's behaviour, the man i spoke to was perfectly fine. There's no need for it treating people like criminals. I actually walked up to her to ask could i buy a ticket i didn't attempt to go through the barrier!!

Thank you for this, and I'm sorry it happened to you too!

Hello everyone, sorry for the prolonged silence. I actually do have an update on this and I will share it with you shortly

So last you knew I had submitted a plea of not guilty and with it a letter to the court re the mistake on the forms. I received a response from the court that said no more than "thanks, received, we've added it to your file." So, so much for that. Approx one week later I recevied a summons to court for a date one month hence. That was that. Then, one week prior to court date, i received a letter through the post saying, no, don't come that day we don't hear Merseyrail cases that day. It was put back by two weeks.

In the meantime, I wrote to the Transport Secretary outlining what had happened and the reasons why I thought Merseyrail were in the wrong. I pointed out that this is habitual behaviour for them, and requested that she help with my case, and also pass the details of it along to the review board who are investigating the heavihandedness of rail companies prosecuting people for minor things. I then sent a copy of the letter to the Transport Secretary to my own MP, who, as it turns out was FANTASTIC. Someone from her office called me back the very same day, listened to me rant and then within 24 hours had a letter in the hands of the MD of Merseyrail with a copy of my letter enclosed, which she also sent to the court.

THREE DAYS prior to the court date, my MP received a response from Merseyrail which said that although they were 'satisfied the penalty fare had been issued correctly' on the unprinted ticket, they were willing to exercise discretion and drop the case against me.

Here's the things that nobody cared about:
1. NRCoT 9.5 and 13.2
2. The court papers being incorrect
3. The fact that I had clearly been trying to do the right thing
4. The fact I had paid twice and was fully out of pocket

All that in mind, Merseyrail were completely willing to take me to court. The ONLY reason they didn't is because my MP told them not to, and even then, they had to be chased for a response. They have in no way admitted they were wrong or apologised, only acted like they're doing me a tremendous favour by letting it go.

Make no mistake, these people DNGAF, they want your money and won't be reasoned with. I SINCERELY hope that this
review stops them, because absolutely nothing else is going to.

I really sincerely thank everyone who took time to give me advice and help on this forum, which did absolutely focus and steer me in the right direction and, more importantly, helped immensely with my sanity. You're all great and I think Richard Osman should write novels about you. Thank you.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you for this, and I'm sorry it happened to you too!

Hello everyone, sorry for the prolonged silence. I actually do have an update on this and I will share it with you shortly

So last you knew I had submitted a plea of not guilty and with it a letter to the court re the mistake on the forms. I received a response from the court that said no more than "thanks, received, we've added it to your file." So, so much for that. Approx one week later I recevied a summons to court for a date one month hence. That was that. Then, one week prior to court date, i received a letter through the post saying, no, don't come that day we don't hear Merseyrail cases that day. It was put back by two weeks.

In the meantime, I wrote to the Transport Secretary outlining what had happened and the reasons why I thought Merseyrail were in the wrong. I pointed out that this is habitual behaviour for them, and requested that she help with my case, and also pass the details of it along to the review board who are investigating the heavihandedness of rail companies prosecuting people for minor things. I then sent a copy of the letter to the Transport Secretary to my own MP, who, as it turns out was FANTASTIC. Someone from her office called me back the very same day, listened to me rant and then within 24 hours had a letter in the hands of the MD of Merseyrail with a copy of my letter enclosed, which she also sent to the court.

THREE DAYS prior to the court date, my MP received a response from Merseyrail which said that although they were 'satisfied the penalty fare had been issued correctly' on the unprinted ticket, they were willing to exercise discretion and drop the case against me.

Here's the things that nobody cared about:
1. NRCoT 9.5 and 13.2
2. The court papers being incorrect
3. The fact that I had clearly been trying to do the right thing
4. The fact I had paid twice and was fully out of pocket

All that in mind, Merseyrail were completely willing to take me to court. The ONLY reason they didn't is because my MP told them not to, and even then, they had to be chased for a response. They have in no way admitted they were wrong or apologised, only acted like they're doing me a tremendous favour by letting it go.

Make no mistake, these people DNGAF, they want your money and won't be reasoned with. I SINCERELY hope that this
review stops them, because absolutely nothing else is going to.

I really sincerely thank everyone who took time to give me advice and help on this forum, which did absolutely focus and steer me in the right direction and, more importantly, helped immensely with my sanity. You're all great and I think Richard Osman should write novels about you. Thank you.

Thanks for letting us know this. This is undoubtedly a good result that we can learn from - but it's depressing how many levers you had to pull to get the right answer.

 

[notmyrealname]

Well done for your persistence and effort, I'm pleased it went your way in the end.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The matter has been raised in Parliament according to BBC report:

Merseyrail train ticket system 'embarrassing' - MP

Labour MP for Knowsley Anneliese Midgley has raised Merseyrail ticketing issues in Parliament.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

The matter has been raised in Parliament according to BBC report:

Merseyrail train ticket system 'embarrassing' - MP

Labour MP for Knowsley Anneliese Midgley has raised Merseyrail ticketing issues in Parliament.

www.bbc.co.uk

Link includes a quote from merseyrail that implies to me they have no plans to allow people to use e tickets without producing them in hard copy in future either. Just smart tickets. Not the same thing. Shame BBC didn’t call out that spin!

 

[MTDar82]

Link includes a quote from merseyrail that implies to me they have no plans to allow people to use e tickets without producing them in hard copy in future either. Just smart tickets. Not the same thing. Shame BBC didn’t call out that spin!

What is a 'smart ticket' when it's at home?

 

[WesternLancer]

What is a 'smart ticket' when it's at home?

I’m assuming it’s a smart card type Oyster card thing. No good if you have booked to a destination beyond Merseyside on train line and want to show your digital e ticket on your phone for example. No good for someone making a one off trip to Merseyside as you wouldn’t bother setting yourself up with a smart card for a one off visit.

What they presumably need is for their on board staff to be equipped with e ticket scanners/ readers.

And for merseytravel to accept their trains are part of the uk national railway network.

 

[signed]

No good for someone making a one off trip to Merseyside as you wouldn’t bother setting yourself up with a smart card for a one off visit.

There a lot of reloadable paper tickets, surely that's a solution to that problem

 

[WesternLancer]

There a lot of reloadable paper tickets, surely that's a solution to that problem

There are of course plenty of solution s but the avg punter expects to be able to buy a e ticket on line and show it on their phone. Not then be prosecuted for doing so. As articulated by the MP in the BBC article.

 

[signed]

but the avg punter expects to be able to buy a e ticket on line and show it on their phone.

Oh absolutely, not disputing that in the slightest

 

[MrJeeves]

Link includes a quote from merseyrail that implies to me they have no plans to allow people to use e tickets without producing them in hard copy in future either. Just smart tickets. Not the same thing. Shame BBC didn’t call out that spin!

That's odd, given that myself and many others used various E-Tickets on Merseyrail this week...

 

[JBuchananGB]

This thread is drifting off topic, as the original issue was MerseyRail's incorrect activity in respect of an off-route excess. Should have charged an excess, but issued a Penalty Fare instead. There is also confusion regarding tickets bought online for collection (Ticket on Departure), and those bought online as e-Tickets to be downloaded. Most, if not all online ticket sites, will not offer e-Tickets when any leg of a journey involves MerseyRail. They are issued as ToD. It is possible to get an e-Ticket issued for a route which might involve MerseyRail, and then these are valid for travel on their services.
As an example, I have my daughter visiting me in Southport today from Stafford. She holds an Off Peak Return from Stafford to Birkdale. because Birkdale is only served by MerseyRail it was fulfilled by ToD. But she could have bought a ticket from Stafford to Southport (route via Wigan) which could have been fulfilled by e-Ticket. She could then have used it to travel via Liverpool to Birkdale. It would have been valid on MerseyRail, without being printed, as long as she could show it on her phone. I'm not sure what would have happened at Liverpool Central barriers. She came via Liverpool and intends (storm Bert permitting) to return via Wigan.

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm not sure what would have happened at Liverpool Central barriers

As @MrJeeves also alluded to, it's fine. I had no problems at all using a Liverpool Stations E-Ticket this week, and it was quite convenient to not have to use their antiquated ticketing system.

The staffing ratios at the gateline also suggested to me that, even in lieu of actual gateline support, there really isn't a good argument not to enable these sorts of group stations tickets in RCS for E-Ticketability.

 

[John Palmer]

Very glad to hear that @MTDar82 is no longer exposed to the risk of conviction for a criminal offence, an outcome which would have been wholly inappropriate.

For me, the disparity that emerged between the written charge served on the OP and the court's record of that charge was the most disturbing aspect of this case. I can think of no reason why HMCTS would have taken the initiative in modifying the specification of that charge in its records by incorporation of a reference to Merseyrail Byelaws, with the implication that the disparity arose from something said or done by Merseyrail's prosecution department. But no doubt a side effect of the withdrawal of Merseyrail's prosecution will now be the absence of any inquiry into how that disparity came about.

 

[mikeg]

This thread is drifting off topic, as the original issue was MerseyRail's incorrect activity in respect of an off-route excess. Should have charged an excess, but issued a Penalty Fare instead. There is also confusion regarding tickets bought online for collection (Ticket on Departure), and those bought online as e-Tickets to be downloaded. Most, if not all online ticket sites, will not offer e-Tickets when any leg of a journey involves MerseyRail. They are issued as ToD. It is possible to get an e-Ticket issued for a route which might involve MerseyRail, and then these are valid for travel on their services.
As an example, I have my daughter visiting me in Southport today from Stafford. She holds an Off Peak Return from Stafford to Birkdale. because Birkdale is only served by MerseyRail it was fulfilled by ToD. But she could have bought a ticket from Stafford to Southport (route via Wigan) which could have been fulfilled by e-Ticket. She could then have used it to travel via Liverpool to Birkdale. It would have been valid on MerseyRail, without being printed, as long as she could show it on her phone. I'm not sure what would have happened at Liverpool Central barriers. She came via Liverpool and intends (storm Bert permitting) to return via Wigan.

There are plenty of tickets where whilst Merseyrail may not be the most obvious route, it is a permitted route, which are available as etickets

 

[Haywain]

There are plenty of tickets where whilst Merseyrail may not be the most obvious route, it is a permitted route, which are available as etickets

As stated by @JBuchananGB in the post you quoted:

It is possible to get an e-Ticket issued for a route which might involve MerseyRail, and then these are valid for travel on their services.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I missed this case until now, what a shocker from Merseyrail. It is good that you have raised it with the appropriate bodies now as ToC prosecutions are currently in the spotlight. For good measure I have flagged this case with a couple of journalists who I know are still actively looking into rail prosecutions.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for this, and I'm sorry it happened to you too!

Hello everyone, sorry for the prolonged silence. I actually do have an update on this and I will share it with you shortly

So last you knew I had submitted a plea of not guilty and with it a letter to the court re the mistake on the forms. I received a response from the court that said no more than "thanks, received, we've added it to your file." So, so much for that. Approx one week later I recevied a summons to court for a date one month hence. That was that. Then, one week prior to court date, i received a letter through the post saying, no, don't come that day we don't hear Merseyrail cases that day. It was put back by two weeks.

In the meantime, I wrote to the Transport Secretary outlining what had happened and the reasons why I thought Merseyrail were in the wrong. I pointed out that this is habitual behaviour for them, and requested that she help with my case, and also pass the details of it along to the review board who are investigating the heavihandedness of rail companies prosecuting people for minor things. I then sent a copy of the letter to the Transport Secretary to my own MP, who, as it turns out was FANTASTIC. Someone from her office called me back the very same day, listened to me rant and then within 24 hours had a letter in the hands of the MD of Merseyrail with a copy of my letter enclosed, which she also sent to the court.

THREE DAYS prior to the court date, my MP received a response from Merseyrail which said that although they were 'satisfied the penalty fare had been issued correctly' on the unprinted ticket, they were willing to exercise discretion and drop the case against me.

Here's the things that nobody cared about:
1. NRCoT 9.5 and 13.2
2. The court papers being incorrect
3. The fact that I had clearly been trying to do the right thing
4. The fact I had paid twice and was fully out of pocket

All that in mind, Merseyrail were completely willing to take me to court. The ONLY reason they didn't is because my MP told them not to, and even then, they had to be chased for a response. They have in no way admitted they were wrong or apologised, only acted like they're doing me a tremendous favour by letting it go.

Make no mistake, these people DNGAF, they want your money and won't be reasoned with. I SINCERELY hope that this
review stops them, because absolutely nothing else is going to.

I really sincerely thank everyone who took time to give me advice and help on this forum, which did absolutely focus and steer me in the right direction and, more importantly, helped immensely with my sanity. You're all great and I think Richard Osman should write novels about you. Thank you.

Just going back to this - firstly thanks to @MTDar82 for this update which was v helpful to read.

It's good to hear that the case against you was pulled, though of course you are right to point out the bigger issues remain outstanding.

FWIW I think this is a really good example of how an MP can help in such situations, and if the MP was the same one (Anneliese Midgely MP for Knowsley)mentioned in the BBC link a few posts on, a good example of how an MP can handle things effectively.

IE the MP uses their position and authority as a citizen's elected representative to 'cut through' things to get to a senior level which ensures the case is reviewed by someone capable of understanding the rules, and taking a decision accordingly - in this case what looks like the right decision!

Then the MP uses their position in Parliament to raise the wider policy and what is wrong with it - with the Minister - this is their role as a backbencher - to call Ministers to account for things in the House. If we are talking about the same MP then that is what she has done or tried to do, so that is also good

I'm not sure that the SoS's reply really gets to the nub of the point being asked - but then that won't be the 1st time that has happened...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-11-21/debates/034953DC-F852-4D65-9C7F-3860689AC077/RailwayTicketing

Here's the transcript from that question in parliament for info:


What steps she is taking to simplify railway ticketing. (901362)


The Secretary of State for Transport
(Louise Haigh)

This Government are committed to reviewing the over-complicated fares system to simplify it. We only have to look on social media any day of the week to see examples of people being confused and wrongly prosecuted because of the confusing nature of the rail system. My officials

are exploring how ticketing innovations such as digital pay-as–you-go and digital season tickets can be rolled out more widely as quickly as possible.

Anneliese Midgley

I associate myself with the tributes paid to John Prescott. Radio Merseyside has featured many stories about passengers who were fined because they bought train tickets in good faith, only to find out that they were the wrong ones. Some of my Knowsley constituents find themselves being fined or denied travel by Merseytravel for buying tickets legitimately online. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to work with our mayor, Steve Rotherham, and with Merseyrail and other operators, to ensure that passengers are not unfairly penalised, and to create a clear and fair ticketing system that is easy for everyone to use?

Louise Haigh

We are working with the mayors as we look to establish Great British Railways. I have asked the Office of Rail and Road to conduct an independent review of rail operators’ revenue protection practices. That launches today and will involve devolved operators, where appropriate. Addressing fare evasion is a priority, but we must always treat passengers fairly and appropriately.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/search/MemberContributions?house=Commons&memberId=467

 

[MTDar82]

Just going back to this - firstly thanks to @MTDar82 for this update which was v helpful to read.

It's good to hear that the case against you was pulled, though of course you are right to point out the bigger issues remain outstanding.

FWIW I think this is a really good example of how an MP can help in such situations, and if the MP was the same one (Anneliese Midgely MP for Knowsley)mentioned in the BBC link a few posts on, a good example of how an MP can handle things effectively.

IE the MP uses their position and authority as a citizen's elected representative to 'cut through' things to get to a senior level which ensures the case is reviewed by someone capable of understanding the rules, and taking a decision accordingly - in this case what looks like the right decision!

Then the MP uses their position in Parliament to raise the wider policy and what is wrong with it - with the Minister - this is their role as a backbencher - to call Ministers to account for things in the House. If we are talking about the same MP then that is what she has done or tried to do, so that is also good

I'm not sure that the SoS's reply really gets to the nub of the point being asked - but then that won't be the 1st time that has happened...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-11-21/debates/034953DC-F852-4D65-9C7F-3860689AC077/RailwayTicketing

Here's the transcript from that question in parliament for info:


What steps she is taking to simplify railway ticketing. (901362)


The Secretary of State for Transport
(Louise Haigh)

This Government are committed to reviewing the over-complicated fares system to simplify it. We only have to look on social media any day of the week to see examples of people being confused and wrongly prosecuted because of the confusing nature of the rail system. My officials

are exploring how ticketing innovations such as digital pay-as–you-go and digital season tickets can be rolled out more widely as quickly as possible.

Anneliese Midgley

I associate myself with the tributes paid to John Prescott. Radio Merseyside has featured many stories about passengers who were fined because they bought train tickets in good faith, only to find out that they were the wrong ones. Some of my Knowsley constituents find themselves being fined or denied travel by Merseytravel for buying tickets legitimately online. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to work with our mayor, Steve Rotherham, and with Merseyrail and other operators, to ensure that passengers are not unfairly penalised, and to create a clear and fair ticketing system that is easy for everyone to use?
Louise Haigh

We are working with the mayors as we look to establish Great British Railways. I have asked the Office of Rail and Road to conduct an independent review of rail operators’ revenue protection practices. That launches today and will involve devolved operators, where appropriate. Addressing fare evasion is a priority, but we must always treat passengers fairly and appropriately.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/search/MemberContributions?house=Commons&memberId=467

Just for info, my MP is not Anneliese Midgley, nor in Merseyside but she is Labour and kept SoS in the loop with all communications with TOC.