Metrolink - how does it cope with football/cricket/concert events?

[stephen rp]

It can’t. It takes five minutes to get a tram into the siding, driver to switch ends, and get it back out again.

How long does it take to reverse into the siding?

An empty extra tram follows an Ashton tram, reverses into siding, driver changes ends, and then straight into westbound platform. Even if a tram from Ashton is passing, the extra tram would follow it and be out of the siding before the reversal of the tram from Media City or Altrincham.

 

[markymark2000]

So for events (at stadium or new arena) there will be no more trams than previously (12 minute Ashton service but specials to / from Etihad Campus in between). Now it will be the Media City trams turning round till 8pm then Altrincham trams after 8pm.

No extra "specials" in between the regular 6-minute interval so no relief for the post-event queues (worse when hundreds of parking places in industrial areas are to be included in the extended "residential" parking zone).

Metrolink seem to be arguing that the turnround "siding" (allowing a tram from Manchester to stable between the running lines) cannot cope with anything more frequent, which seems unlikely.

Is that the whole turnaround process can't cope rather than just the siding it isn't a proper siding in my opinion. The layout means that a tram turning around here blocks the Ashton bound line while the driver shuts down the cab, goes down to ground level, walks to the other end of the train, climbs up into the cab and then sets up the cab. That's a lot of time to block to Ashton bound line while they are also trying to run some sort of service through to Ashton. I would say this is one of the main things which will cause issues. You'd need more infrastructure to the east of Etihad campus to facilitate more trams turning around. And/Or drivers need to 'step back' so then the turnaround can be completed quicker.

reverses into siding, driver changes ends

I'm not sure you'd get approval for that, extremely risky.

 

[stephen rp]

Is that the whole turnaround process can't cope rather than just the siding it isn't a proper siding in my opinion. The layout means that a tram turning around here blocks the Ashton bound line while the driver shuts down the cab, goes down to ground level, walks to the other end of the train, climbs up into the cab and then sets up the cab. That's a lot of time to block to Ashton bound line while they are also trying to run some sort of service through to Ashton. I would say this is one of the main things which will cause issues. You'd need more infrastructure to the east of Etihad campus to facilitate more trams turning around. And/Or drivers need to 'step back' so then the turnaround can be completed quicker.


I'm not sure you'd get approval for that, extremely risky.

It isn't a "siding". It's a third line between the running lines.

They have to change ends now. Compared to random people walking in front of trams on the street, I'm not sure what the safety issue would be.

 

[507 001]

So for events (at stadium or new arena) there will be no more trams than previously (12 minute Ashton service but specials to / from Etihad Campus in between). Now it will be the Media City trams turning round till 8pm then Altrincham trams after 8pm.

No extra "specials" in between the regular 6-minute interval so no relief for the post-event queues (worse when hundreds of parking places in industrial areas are to be included in the extended "residential" parking zone).

Metrolink seem to be arguing that the turnround "siding" (allowing a tram from Manchester to stable between the running lines) cannot cope with anything more frequent, which seems unlikely.

There is a capacity increase as it’s now a scheduled, timetabled 10TPH rather than a sporadic spread of additional sets that rely on drivers wanting to do overtime.

How long does it take to reverse into the siding?

An empty extra tram follows an Ashton tram, reverses into siding, driver changes ends, and then straight into westbound platform. Even if a tram from Ashton is passing, the extra tram would follow it and be out of the siding before the reversal of the tram from Media City or Altrincham.

Quite a while. Trams turning back must first go all the way onto the outbound platform at Velopark and then make their way back around to the points at 5mph. This is due to a couple of things;

1) the way the signalling is set up
2) to allow easy rescue should the set turning back fail. Stopping at the points would mean you’d have to couple up on a sharp curve which is extremely difficult and dangerous.

Is that the whole turnaround process can't cope rather than just the siding it isn't a proper siding in my opinion. The layout means that a tram turning around here blocks the Ashton bound line while the driver shuts down the cab, goes down to ground level, walks to the other end of the train, climbs up into the cab and then sets up the cab. That's a lot of time to block to Ashton bound line while they are also trying to run some sort of service through to Ashton. I would say this is one of the main things which will cause issues. You'd need more infrastructure to the east of Etihad campus to facilitate more trams turning around. And/Or drivers need to 'step back' so then the turnaround can be completed quicker.


I'm not sure you'd get approval for that, extremely risky.

Correct, although you don’t need to climb down as we use Velopark OB platform to change ends.

There are vague plans to remodel the Velopark area but nothing concrete yet.

It isn't a "siding". It's a third line between the running lines.

They have to change ends now. Compared to random people walking in front of trams on the street, I'm not sure what the safety issue would be.

1) It is a siding. It is literally called Velopark Turnback Siding.

2) Reversing is specifically banned in the Metrolink rulebook except for the purposes of uncoupling a double unit.

3) you would have to be at the leading end in order to call the points to get into the siding.

 

[markymark2000]

Correct, although you don’t need to climb down as we use Velopark OB platform to change ends.

I didn't think you had to go all the way to Velopark, I thought you'd have stopped on the curve.

If that's the case, even a second driver and 'stepping back' wouldn't solve much, a minute, but that's not going to enable a frequency increase.

There are vague plans to remodel the Velopark area but nothing concrete yet.

I'm surprised that no one thought about this when the Ashton line was built. A stadium of 60k kicks out and the best frequency that can be done is around 400 people every 6 minutes. To clear just 10% of people out of the Etihad on the trams towards Manchester, you will be looking at 90 minutes.

I hope they can sort something soon as it needs it. Not just as the stadium is getting bigger and there is more push for sustainable travel to/from the stadium, but also the fact that there is going to be more events there now with CoOp Arena and I'd argue that the arena will have a higher percentage of people visiting using public transport than the football as people are more likely to stay over night in the city so that will be a strain as well on the network.

 

[507 001]

I didn't think you had to go all the way to Velopark, I thought you'd have stopped on the curve.

If that's the case, even a second driver and 'stepping back' wouldn't solve much, a minute, but that's not going to enable a frequency increase.

Stopping on the curve is technically possible (although you wouldn’t want to in a double as you’d be blocking a fair chunk of the walkway), but M5000s have a nasty habit of sitting down when you change ends and so it was deemed necessary to make sure they end up in a recoverable position. Coupling up with two techs holding the couplers in position isn’t fun!

I'm surprised that no one thought about this when the Ashton line was built. A stadium of 60k kicks out and the best frequency that can be done is around 400 people every 6 minutes. To clear just 10% of people out of the Etihad on the trams towards Manchester, you will be looking at 90 minutes.

I hope they can sort something soon as it needs it. Not just as the stadium is getting bigger and there is more push for sustainable travel to/from the stadium, but also the fact that there is going to be more events there now with CoOp Arena and I'd argue that the arena will have a higher percentage of people visiting using public transport than the football as people are more likely to stay over night in the city so that will be a strain as well on the network.

Velopark has always been a bit of an oddity. It is a very poor design, nobody would argue that.

We can’t really understand why it was built the way it was but there you go.

As it happens we clear our chunk of the crowds pretty well. The arena will put this to the test though. The Etihad’s proximity to the city centre means that a considerable amount of people simply walk into the city centre though…

 

[markymark2000]

The arena will put this to the test though.

Isn't there a clause in the planning permission for the arena that events at Etihad and CoOp arena must be on different days to prevent chaos?

 

[Tramfan]

Stopping on the curve is technically possible (although you wouldn’t want to in a double as you’d be blocking a fair chunk of the walkway), but M5000s have a nasty habit of sitting down when you change ends and so it was deemed necessary to make sure they end up in a recoverable position. Coupling up with two techs holding the couplers in position isn’t fun!



Velopark has always been a bit of an oddity. It is a very poor design, nobody would argue that.

We can’t really understand why it was built the way it was but there you go.

As it happens we clear our chunk of the crowds pretty well. The arena will put this to the test though. The Etihad’s proximity to the city centre means that a considerable amount of people simply walk into the city centre though…

An entrance to the siding from the other end, allowing access direct from the Etihad Campus would seem far more logical. Sidings in between running lines like that are handy due to not having to cross the other line either in or out, but that's completely negated by having to turn back on the line to access the siding in the first place.

There must be some reason it was designed as it is?

 

[markymark2000]

There must be some reason it was designed as it is?

I'm going to guess cost. Less points to maintain and bidirectional so if you wanted, you could run Ashton to Etihad Campus services without 2 lots of reversals. What's bizarre though is that they have done the same thing on the Trafford Park line so can't have learnt from any mistakes.

 

[stephen rp]

Isn't there a clause in the planning permission for the arena that events at Etihad and CoOp arena must be on different days to prevent chaos?

No.

Stopping on the curve is technically possible (although you wouldn’t want to in a double as you’d be blocking a fair chunk of the walkway), but M5000s have a nasty habit of sitting down when you change ends and so it was deemed necessary to make sure they end up in a recoverable position. Coupling up with two techs holding the couplers in position isn’t fun!



Velopark has always been a bit of an oddity. It is a very poor design, nobody would argue that.

We can’t really understand why it was built the way it was but there you go.

As it happens we clear our chunk of the crowds pretty well. The arena will put this to the test though. The Etihad’s proximity to the city centre means that a considerable amount of people simply walk into the city centre though…

They walk in this weather because it's quicker than waiting for trams. If Metrolink think it's going pretty well, they're not queueing.

 

[507 001]

An entrance to the siding from the other end, allowing access direct from the Etihad Campus would seem far more logical. Sidings in between running lines like that are handy due to not having to cross the other line either in or out, but that's completely negated by having to turn back on the line to access the siding in the first place.

There must be some reason it was designed as it is?

I suspect the reason it was built this way is due to both the Alan Turing way tunnel and the gradients involved. The track geometry between a theoretical facing point on the mainline and the trailing point in the siding itself would be… interesting.

There’s also the usual British desire to avoid facing points at all costs…

I'm going to guess cost. Less points to maintain and bidirectional so if you wanted, you could run Ashton to Etihad Campus services without 2 lots of reversals. What's bizarre though is that they have done the same thing on the Trafford Park line so can't have learnt from any mistakes.

The Trafford Park one being a similar design confused us too, as Velopark has long been an annoyance to our planning department in particular. As it happens it’s a simplified version and is actually a bit quicker to use (assuming you’re not the first set to do so).

Also, you can’t turn inbound to outbound at Velopark. It is signalled for OB to IB only.

If Metrolink think it's going pretty well, they're not queueing.

What service frequency would we have to provide to avoid a queue at the Etihad?

 

[markymark2000]

As it happens it’s a simplified version and is actually a bit quicker to use (assuming you’re not the first set to do so).

Also, you can’t turn inbound to outbound at Velopark. It is signalled for OB to IB only.

So really, it might as well have been a normal turnback siding the same as Piccadilly is? The difference is it would cost an extra set of points (though at least 2 of them could be spring loaded).

 

[507 001]

So really, it might as well have been a normal turnback siding the same as Piccadilly is? The difference is it would cost an extra set of points (though at least 2 of them could be spring loaded).

Potentially. Like I say, I suspect there were other reasons for the design than just cost though.

I suspect it’s the same reasons why you can’t turn IB to OB (FWIW, Warren Bruce Rd TB on the Trafford Park line is also OB-IB only).

 

[stephen rp]

I suspect the reason it was built this way is due to both the Alan Turing way tunnel and the gradients involved. The track geometry between a theoretical facing point on the mainline and the trailing point in the siding itself would be… interesting.

There’s also the usual British desire to avoid facing points at all costs…



The Trafford Park one being a similar design confused us too, as Velopark has long been an annoyance to our planning department in particular. As it happens it’s a simplified version and is actually a bit quicker to use (assuming you’re not the first set to do so).

Also, you can’t turn inbound to outbound at Velopark. It is signalled for OB to IB only.



What service frequency would we have to provide to avoid a queue at the Etihad?

You couldn't avoid a queue of people.

A queue of trams would help.

And not 20 minute delays like reported this evening.

 

[507 001]

You couldn't avoid a queue of people.

A queue of trams would help.

And not 20 minute delays like reported this evening.

Ah so queueing can’t be used as a metric to prove whether things are going well or not, can it?

Where are you going to find the drivers?

Where are you going to find the trams?

Where are you going to put the queue?

How do you know we don’t already have a queue? (Subject to availability of rolling stock and staff there’s usually two double units sat in Velopark siding waiting for the first crowds to turn up).

What are you going to tell all the regular, none football passengers who are stuck in the queue?

Where do you propose we put the road traffic that caused this evening’s delays? Nice that Metrolink is taking the blame for something not exactly in its control.

 

[stephen rp]

Ah so queueing can’t be used as a metric to prove whether things are going well or not, can it?

Where are you going to find the drivers?

Where are you going to find the trams?

Where are you going to put the queue?

How do you know we don’t already have a queue? (Subject to availability of rolling stock and staff there’s usually two double units sat in Velopark siding waiting for the first crowds to turn up).

What are you going to tell all the regular, none football passengers who are stuck in the queue?

Where do you propose we put the road traffic that caused this evening’s delays? Nice that Metrolink is taking the blame for something not exactly in its control.

It's not when the first crowds turn up. It's when the last of the crowd is cleared.

I'm a bit confused now. I was told there was no capacity for extra services, but you say there may be two units waiting in the siding.

If you had the stock and the staff, I'd have them queued back to Droylsden.

I don't know about blame, but it's a rapid transit system that gets delayed by road traffic (on the day of a rail strike).

 

[sprunt]

Where are you going to find the trams?

For evening and Sunday fixtures, the ones that aren't running direct between Bury and Altrincham.

 

[507 001]

It's not when the first crowds turn up. It's when the last of the crowd is cleared.

I'm a bit confused now. I was told there was no capacity for extra services, but you say there may be two units waiting in the siding.

The crowd takes about an hour/hour and a half to clear. It’s not exactly the end of the world is it?

You know full well that extra services were always put on on match days. But this entirely depended on driver and rolling stock availability (during peak hours). I even mentioned this above.

There would usually be around 4 extra sets out, as well as double units on all normal Ashton-Eccles services.

But to find enough vehicles and drivers to have them ‘queueing’ would be impossible.

If you had the stock and the staff, I'd have them queued back to Droylsden

So given what we’ve said above, where are you going to find the rolling stock without robbing other lines?

You can’t exactly queue them all the way back to Droylsden though can you? That’s a bit excessive and would cause havoc to the none football traffic. Where are you going to have them queue without bringing half of Tameside to a grinding halt? Let’s be realistic.

For evening and Sunday fixtures, the ones that aren't running direct between Bury and Altrincham.

Which is exactly what was done, depending on driver availability and maintenance requirements.

I suspect there will still be sporadic football specials out, but there is now a scheduled 10tph and that is an improvement.

 

[stephen rp]

The crowd takes about an hour/hour and a half to clear. It’s not exactly the end of the world is it?

You know full well that extra services were always put on on match days. But this entirely depended on driver and rolling stock availability (during peak hours). I even mentioned this above.

There would usually be around 4 extra sets out, as well as double units on all normal Ashton-Eccles services.

But to find enough vehicles and drivers to have them ‘queueing’ would be impossible.



So given what we’ve said above, where are you going to find the rolling stock without robbing other lines?

You can’t exactly queue them all the way back to Droylsden though can you? That’s a bit excessive and would cause havoc to the none football traffic. Where are you going to have them queue without bringing half of Tameside to a grinding halt? Let’s be realistic.



Which is exactly what was done, depending on driver availability and maintenance requirements.

I suspect there will still be sporadic football specials out, but there is now a scheduled 10tph and that is an improvement.

If robbing other lines means single units in the evening on other routes, that would do.

I know we're talking theory, but queue on the running line. So long as some go to the Eccles line, that end wouldn't suffer. But if the siding will take two double units, how long would it actually take from leaving Etihad Campus to reverse at Velopark and be in the siding?

But an hour and a half after a match that finishes at 2200 or a concert later? Or both? No chance of making last trains. You might as well wait for the traffic to clear and catch a bus. Or take one of the taxis parked on Ashton New Road and often blocking the tram crossing at Holt Town.

Of course, if it didn't take that long, more people would be queueing for the tram.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’s a 30-40 minute walk to the city centre. What’s the problem? I used to walk back into town from Maine Road.

 

[507 001]

If robbing other lines means single units in the evening on other routes, that would do.

No, it would mean a severely reduced service on other lines, potentially no service at all.

Besides, even if it did just mean fewer doubles, what makes them any less deserving of double units?

I know we're talking theory, but queue on the running line. So long as some go to the Eccles line, that end wouldn't suffer. But if the siding will take two double units, how long would it actually take from leaving Etihad Campus to reverse at Velopark and be in the siding?

How do you suggest we queue on the running line when the majority of it between Velopark and Droylsden is on the road?

And what happens to the service across the rest of the line whilst you’ve got said queue set up? The Eccles line would suffer, as would the majority of the normal passengers on the Ashton line. This just isn’t a practical, or indeed sensible suggestion.

But an hour and a half after a match that finishes at 2200 or a concert later? Or both? No chance of making last trains. You might as well wait for the traffic to clear and catch a bus. Or take one of the taxis parked on Ashton New Road and often blocking the tram crossing at Holt Town.

An hour and a half being the absolutely worst case scenario. Holt Town and Velopark stations generally close for an hour post match but can be kept closed for longer should that be required. After about 45 minutes there’s generally no queue but services are still very busy.

Personally I think you’re expecting far too much. It’s a railway, not a teleportation service.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm a bit lost here, not really being familiar with the local area. Can someone explain what the layout of the turnback sidings being discussed actually is?

 

[stephen rp]

No, it would mean a severely reduced service on other lines, potentially no service at all.

Besides, even if it did just mean fewer doubles, what makes them any less deserving of double units?

Where else would load like this at 10 pm?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Crowded-tram-to-the-match_fig3_340897879

How do you suggest we queue on the running line when the majority of it between Velopark and Droylsden is on the road?

And what happens to the service across the rest of the line whilst you’ve got said queue set up? The Eccles line would suffer, as would the majority of the normal passengers on the Ashton line. This just isn’t a practical, or indeed sensible suggestion.

Not stationary queueing - just following the previous tram

An hour and a half being the absolutely worst case scenario. Holt Town and Velopark stations generally close for an hour post match but can be kept closed for longer should that be required. After about 45 minutes there’s generally no queue but services are still very busy.

Personally I think you’re expecting far too much. It’s a railway, not a teleportation service.

I'd like to see "real time trains" for the Metro after a match. I often walk a mile alongside the track as far as New Islington, and if I see two trams in that time, it's less often than it should be.

 

[507 001]

Where else would load like this at 10 pm?

I’m sorry but what exactly do you expect after a major sporting event? Empty trams? Let’s be sensible here, just because one line is experiencing crush loading it doesn’t mean that the other lines should have to suffer. Let’s not forget that a lot of the passengers getting off the services on the Ashton line will then be transferring onto services on other lines.

The Ashton and Eccles lines are quieter during peak hours than the Bury and Altrincham lines, should we take their trams away to enhance capacity on the Bury line?

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a frankly stupid idea.

Not stationary queueing - just following the previous tram

Again, how do you do that without bringing Tameside to a grinding halt? Theres only so many teams you can physically put into a section before it becomes problematic, both in terms of physical capacity, signalling and power supply.

I'd like to see "real time trains" for the Metro after a match. I often walk a mile alongside the track as far as New Islington, and if I see two trams in that time, it's less often than it should be.

You’re obviously walking alongside a different line to the one I’m driving. I mean they’re not gonna be one behind the other, but they’re only a couple of minutes apart at worst.

 

[stephen rp]

I’m sorry but what exactly do you expect after a major sporting event? Empty trams? Let’s be sensible here, just because one line is experiencing crush loading it doesn’t mean that the other lines should have to suffer. Let’s not forget that a lot of the passengers getting off the services on the Ashton line will then be transferring onto services on other lines.

The Ashton and Eccles lines are quieter during peak hours than the Bury and Altrincham lines, should we take their trams away to enhance capacity on the Bury line?

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a frankly stupid idea.



Again, how do you do that without bringing Tameside to a grinding halt? Theres only so many teams you can physically put into a section before it becomes problematic, both in terms of physical capacity, signalling and power supply.



You’re obviously walking alongside a different line to the one I’m driving. I mean they’re not gonna be one behind the other, but they’re only a couple of minutes apart at worst.

How can they be only a couple of minutes apart with 10 tph?

I'm not sure why you feel so defensive. It's the only mass transit system serving the biggest sporting venue in a major city *, and it's not fit for that purpose. I can see the operating difficulties you've outlined, but they're problems looking for a solution. Using public transport should be the obvious choice (especially now that free on-street parking anywhere near the stadium is being eradicated), and it isn't.

Can units from the Ashton line reverse at Piccadilly Gardens? There's a trailing crossover on Aytoun Street - a shuttle service between Etihad and Piccadilly would be a bit of a solution.

* Pre-empting comments, Old Trafford isn't in the city. (And has four Metro stations nearby serving seven routes.)

 

[507 001]

How can they be only a couple of minutes apart with 10 tph?

Well 10tph equals a 6 minute service, which in my book makes them a few minutes apart. With the new timetabled service they’ll probably be further apart, but the specials always ran ‘as required’ and would often be quite close to the main service vehicles.

I'm not sure why you feel so defensive.

Metrolink can be rightly criticised on a great number of things, but this isn’t one of them. We do a bloody good job with what we have available.

To be told that we’re doing it wrong by someone whose only suggestions aren’t even remotely in the realms of possibility is more than a little frustrating.

Can units from the Ashton line reverse at Piccadilly Gardens? There's a trailing crossover on Aytoun Street - a shuttle service between Etihad and Piccadilly would be a bit of a solution.

Yes, but they can also turn at Piccadilly itself, something we have done many times, including when staff/rolling stock availability necessitates a reduced football service.

 

[markymark2000]

How can they be only a couple of minutes apart with 10 tph?

That's a 6 minute frequency.

I'm not sure why you feel so defensive. It's the only mass transit system serving the biggest sporting venue in a major city *, and it's not fit for that purpose. I can see the operating difficulties you've outlined, but they're problems looking for a solution. Using public transport should be the obvious choice (especially now that free on-street parking anywhere near the stadium is being eradicated), and it isn't.

It's my view that with infrastructure improvements to rid the stupid layout on the turnback siding, a good solution would be match days pre/post match and CoOpArena kick out time to extend the Bury trams from Piccadilly back to Etihad Campus. I think this would create a mess with staff duties though as it does seem like there is an appetite for staff duties to remain the same rather than adjusted for each event (Such as the Altrincham - Piccadilly service doesn't need to run to Etihad Campus on all evenings surely, just needed on match days?). If the Bury trams could be extended just for matches/events (that being any time of any day), that would provide 16 trams per hour which is a 3-4 min frequency. I think that is the best frequency that Metrolink could achieve. I think anything beyond that is just not going to happen.

I'm a bit lost here, not really being familiar with the local area. Can someone explain what the layout of the turnback sidings being discussed actually is?

Google Maps and track diagrams are best explaining this in my opinion as I don't think I have all the terminology.

Google Maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4833693,-2.195451,147m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
Track diagram: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/metrolink_track_diagrams#incoming-1879518 (In the PDF, it has the track diagram, I have screenshotted the relevant part and highlighted in green the turnback siding)

 

[JJmoogle]

The turnback at Etihad has forever puzzled(almost infuriated) me every time I've gone past it, the amount of space available for it, even above the hill down into the tunnel makes it appear like it was originally planned to be something much more efficent but whatever it was went unbuilt.

 

[507 001]

The turnback at Etihad has forever puzzled(almost infuriated) me every time I've gone past it, the amount of space available for it, even above the hill down into the tunnel makes it appear like it was originally planned to be something much more efficent but whatever it was went unbuilt.

Hey if it infuriates you when you go past it, you should try using it

 

[py_megapixel]

So if I'm understanding correctly, it's less of a siding and more of just a very long crossover? i.e. vehicles have to run into the Velopark platform, reverse there, then pass over the "siding" to cross back onto the inbound line?

In that case, why don't the trams run to Velopark in service and terminate there instead of Etihad?