Metrolink Second City Crossing

[nerd]

Why does opening it allow airport to reverse at deansgate rather than cornbrook? What changes?

Because services will now run from East Didsbury to Rochdale along 2CC. Formerly, the Rochdale services terminated at Exchange Square, and the counterpart East Didsbury services terminated at Deansgate/Castlefield. This frees up the central reversing platform at D/C, which is now available for the Airport Line services (as an interim solution, while the TMS signalling for the central reversing platform at Victoria is finalised).

 

[nerd]

I understand the capacity issue and I'm not questioning it In fact I hope I'm one of the good guys when it comes to supporting public transport upgrades. But it's an "insider's" reason for building it. As more of a tram user than a tram expert, I can sympathise if, without an exciting new stop to get on at, more locals will just be glad that the building work is finished than will be excited to have some new rails to look at the scenery from. And shops will see it as something to carry shoppers past them rather than *to* them.

People are naturally cynical. We can all think of an area of life we are NOT particularly knowledgeable about, and remember all the times we've rolled our eyes when the council/government/school/university/big company has said "You might not be able to see the benefit, but we aren't just doing this improvement/change/disruption/annoyance for the sake of spending money. This is for everyone's benefit, honest".

No flames, please. I'm enough of an insider (mainly just from lurking on here) to see that 2CC is a good thing.

The new stop is Exchange Square; which now becomes accessible to tram users from the south side of Manchester, as well as those from the north side. It may be a bit closer to Victoria than to St Peters Square; but generally it is very well placed for shops, eateries, hotels, new office developments; and indeed the Cathedral. Undoubtedly more conveniently placed overall than a stop further along Cross Street would have been.

Manchester City Centre is pretty compact; from St Peters Square it is only 500m to Oxford Road, 800m to Piccadilly and 1000m to Victoria; so effectively the whole central business district is walkable from a few centrally located stops. Add BRT cross-city bus services linking the two Education Precincts via Princess Street and Oxford Road, and there is a potentially high degree of accessibility into and around the regional centre.

The weakest component of the central area transport system - in my view - is now the free Metroshuttle network. Ideally travellers with reduced mobility into the city centre using tram or busway ought to be able easily to access Metroshuttle - as indeed would travellers generally when it is raining (whiich does happen in Manchester from time to time). But although Metroshuttle routes now run close to several central tram and BRT stops, there is no signage directing travellers to them; nor are the Metroshuttle routes shown on the tram or BRT system maps.

 

[Altfish]

I understand the capacity issue and I'm not questioning it In fact I hope I'm one of the good guys when it comes to supporting public transport upgrades. But it's an "insider's" reason for building it. As more of a tram user than a tram expert, I can sympathise if, without an exciting new stop to get on at, more locals will just be glad that the building work is finished than will be excited to have some new rails to look at the scenery from. And shops will see it as something to carry shoppers past them rather than *to* them.

People are naturally cynical. We can all think of an area of life we are NOT particularly knowledgeable about, and remember all the times we've rolled our eyes when the council/government/school/university/big company has said "You might not be able to see the benefit, but we aren't just doing this improvement/change/disruption/annoyance for the sake of spending money. This is for everyone's benefit, honest".

No flames, please. I'm enough of an insider (mainly just from lurking on here) to see that 2CC is a good thing.

Most Mancunians realise that the benefit of the trams far out weigh the two or three years inconvenience of the construction process. It is only people who drive in town that are really inconvenienced, pedestrians have little problem with the works. (Except when there are changes to the trams - that they have come to rely on!)

I think businesses also see the massive benefits of the trams, your comment, "And shops will see it as something to carry shoppers past them rather than *to* them." is just not borne out. Easy access from the suburbs brings people into the city, it is the towns on the outskirts that may suffer if they don't adapt.

The biggest complaint about the tram expansion has been "Why are we not getting the trams?" from areas that do not have them

 

[Chester1]

Most Mancunians realise that the benefit of the trams far out weigh the two or three years inconvenience of the construction process. It is only people who drive in town that are really inconvenienced, pedestrians have little problem with the works. (Except when there are changes to the trams - that they have come to rely on!)

I think businesses also see the massive benefits of the trams, your comment, "And shops will see it as something to carry shoppers past them rather than *to* them." is just not borne out. Easy access from the suburbs brings people into the city, it is the towns on the outskirts that may suffer if they don't adapt.

The biggest complaint about the tram expansion has been "Why are we not getting the trams?" from areas that do not have them

I agree, the length of construction time has been unpopular not the project itself. The areas where people would like new tram lines are ussually inappropriate or not worth the cost e.g. Bolton (too far) and Leigh (much cheaper solution sufficient for passenger flow).

 

[miami]

An orbital route would be nice, Salford Crescent-Broadway-Mediacity-IWM-MUFC-Old Trafford-Whalley Range-Rusholme.

Contactless payment as promised 3 years ago would be even nicer! At least you can use contactless to buy a ticket, but why not tap in/tap out ala london?

 

[Chester1]

An orbital route would be nice, Salford Crescent-Broadway-Mediacity-IWM-MUFC-Old Trafford-Whalley Range-Rusholme.

Contactless payment as promised 3 years ago would be even nicer! At least you can use contactless to buy a ticket, but why not tap in/tap out ala london?

Is there a proven market for such a service? The contactless project was very badly managed and from what I have heard from a collegue who had a relative working on the project, it had to be virtually restarted mid way through causing a huge delay.

 

[Stan Price]

Most Mancunians realise that the benefit of the trams far out weigh the two or three years inconvenience of the construction process. It is only people who drive in town that are really inconvenienced, pedestrians have little problem with the works. (Except when there are changes to the trams - that they have come to rely on!)

I think businesses also see the massive benefits of the trams, your comment, "And shops will see it as something to carry shoppers past them rather than *to* them." is just not borne out. Easy access from the suburbs brings people into the city, it is the towns on the outskirts that may suffer if they don't adapt.

The biggest complaint about the tram expansion has been "Why are we not getting the trams?" from areas that do not have them

How do you know what most Mancunians realise or what the biggest complaint about Metrolink is? Most Manchester residents of my acquaintance would disagree. and they are certainly not those who bring their cars into the centre

 

[nerd]

How do you know what most Mancunians realise or what the biggest complaint about Metrolink is? Most Manchester residents of my acquaintance would disagree. and they are certainly not those who bring their cars into the centre

Leaving aside willy-waving about who is the 'most';

- what is the biggest complaint about Metrolink of residents of your acquaintance, and what is it (about Metrolink) that most of them realise?

 

[Altfish]

How do you know what most Mancunians realise or what the biggest complaint about Metrolink is? Most Manchester residents of my acquaintance would disagree. and they are certainly not those who bring their cars into the centre

I work in Manchester, commute by tram or train.
I speak to many businesses and their workers; all who have the Metrolink are happy - even those who drive in (It reduces traffic for their journey).
I go into town for the night life, meals, concerts, theatre, meetings; it is usually reliable and runs late when compared to trains.
You don't say what the biggest complaint your acquaintances have, I'd be interested to know.

 

[Altfish]

Leaving aside willy-waving about who is the 'most';

- what is the biggest complaint about Metrolink of residents of your acquaintance, and what is it (about Metrolink) that most of them realise?

Sorry Nerd, hadn't realised you'd asked the same question.:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Most Mancunians realise that the benefit of the trams far out weigh the two or three years inconvenience of the construction process. It is only people who drive in town that are really inconvenienced, pedestrians have little problem with the works. (Except when there are changes to the trams - that they have come to rely on!)

Would you see two to three years inconvenience that would attach itself to the current "Top of the Fantasy Pops" Oxford Road line so beloved of many Manchester Metrolink aficionados as naught but a mere inconvenience to the large Manchester University campus area, the area near to the Manchester Royal Infirmary, the existing changes to bus routes that use the Oxford Road corridor to places far outwith that area, the side road connections that carry many bus routes, the Curry Mile, etc. Have Corporation Street and Cross Street been naught in the way of disrupting the commercial and retail life of the Manchester inner-city core? I still await the promised area regeneration that the East Manchester line was said to bring, especially in the Holt Town area, which looks as it would not be out of place in "Paradise Lost".

Would these be the same "Most Mancunians" who were given the chance to have a two-ring congestion charge system in order to launch a great expansion to the Manchester Metrolink system and then voted overwhelmingly against it in that referendum some years ago. Are you saying that the Angel of the Lord has appeared to them and opened their eyes and "Damascene Moments" have made overnight conversions of their past views.

 

[nerd]

Would you see two to three years inconvenience that would attach itself to the current "Top of the Fantasy Pops" Oxford Road line so beloved of many Manchester Metrolink aficionados as naught but a mere inconvenience to the large Manchester University campus area, the area near to the Manchester Royal Infirmary, the existing changes to bus routes that use the Oxford Road corridor to places far outwith that area, the side road connections that carry many bus routes, the Curry Mile, etc. Have Corporation Street and Cross Street been naught in the way of disrupting the commercial and retail life of the Manchester inner-city core? I still await the promised area regeneration that the East Manchester line was said to bring, especially in the Holt Town area, which looks as it would not be out of place in "Paradise Lost".

Would these be the same "Most Mancunians" who were given the chance to have a two-ring congestion charge system in order to launch a great expansion to the Manchester Metrolink system and then voted overwhelmingly against it in that referendum some years ago. Are you saying that the Angel of the Lord has appeared to them and opened their eyes and "Damascene Moments" have made overnight conversions of their past views.

My view; (I can't speak for Altfish).

- I do not think that a the supposed benefits of tramline along Oxford Road would be worth the disruption of construction - and consequent long-term traffic diversions;

- I do think that the improved resileince and access through the city centre will prove to have been well worth the disruption along Cross Street and Corporation Street. The key difference being that these roads were already closed to through traffic anyway.

- Last time I looked, the East Manchester line corridor had benefitted from; a major extension to the Etihad Stadium, large scale investment in Ashton Moss, almost continual residential construction around New Islington stop, and an extensive rebuilding around Ashton town centre. Holt Town is probably the only stop that has not yet been assoicated with major inward investment.

- I suspect you are right that a further congestion charge vote would not be likely to produce a different result (at least not yet); but that is a different issue. Mancs may still think Metrolink 2CC investment is worth the two-years disruption, without thinking that it would be worth a congestions levy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My view; (I can't speak for Altfish).

- I do not think that a the supposed benefits of tramline along Oxford Road would be worth the disruption of construction - and consequent long-term traffic diversions;

- I do think that the improved resileince and access through the city centre will prove to have been well worth the disruption along Cross Street and Corporation Street. The key difference being that these roads were already closed to through traffic anyway.

- Last time I looked, the East Manchester line corridor had benefitted from; a major extension to the Etihad Stadium, large scale investment in Ashton Moss, almost continual residential construction around New Islington stop, and an extensive rebuilding around Ashton town centre. Holt Town is probably the only stop that has not yet been assoicated with major inward investment.

- I suspect you are right that a further congestion charge vote would not be likely to produce a different result (at least not yet); but that is a different issue. Mancs may still think Metrolink 2CC investment is worth the two-years disruption, without thinking that it would be worth a congestions levy.

Thank you for your response and I will expand my thoughts on the East Manchester Line from your comments:-

(1)...The area of New Islington is part of the natural expansion of the Northern Quarter and would have occurred had no Metrolink line been available, in the same manner as the early constructions of the Northern Quarter still took place without the Manchester Metrolink system.

(2)...I refuse to believe that the owners of the Etihad Stadium, with all its associated costs, were swayed by the thought of a local tramline as "part of the big picture".

(3)...The area of the Ashton Moss development with its many large logistics and industrial units is one geared to a good road transport infrastructure and the nearness of the M60 orbital motorway as a link to other parts of the motorway network.

 

[Altfish]

My view; (I can't speak for Altfish).

- I do not think that a the supposed benefits of tramline along Oxford Road would be worth the disruption of construction - and consequent long-term traffic diversions;

- I do think that the improved resileince and access through the city centre will prove to have been well worth the disruption along Cross Street and Corporation Street. The key difference being that these roads were already closed to through traffic anyway.

- Last time I looked, the East Manchester line corridor had benefitted from; a major extension to the Etihad Stadium, large scale investment in Ashton Moss, almost continual residential construction around New Islington stop, and an extensive rebuilding around Ashton town centre. Holt Town is probably the only stop that has not yet been assoicated with major inward investment.

- I suspect you are right that a further congestion charge vote would not be likely to produce a different result (at least not yet); but that is a different issue. Mancs may still think Metrolink 2CC investment is worth the two-years disruption, without thinking that it would be worth a congestions levy.

Reasonably happy with that response, won't disagree with much of it.
I would add about the Oxford Road proposals, I've said this before but not sure it was on this forum, I don't think Oxford Road is the right route BUT one of the parallel streets, e.g. Higher Cambridge Street or Upper Brook Street would be better.

When the Commonwealth Games were proposed the trams were supposed to be ready and I think there was already a commitment for them to be put in. So I think the development was based on their arrival.

New Islington may well have happened but certainly not at the same rate.

 

[185]

Maybe of note, a VIP tram with invited press & councillors ran Tuesday from St Petes - Exchange Sq - Victoria. Journey was around 5 minutes end to end, a mild saving on the Market Street route.

 

[Ianno87]

Maybe of note, a VIP tram with invited press & councillors ran Tuesday from St Petes - Exchange Sq - Victoria. Journey was around 5 minutes end to end, a mild saving on the Market Street route.

The BBC North West tonight Twitter has uploaded a drivers eye view video.

 

[ValleyLines142]

2CC suddenly seems a bit underwhelming. It hardly opens up a new bit of Town to the tram does it? Exchange Square is practically at Victoria. Are the locals (apart from tram rail enthusuasts) loiking forward to using it, or just glad the disruption is over?

Anyway, sorry for being dim.

2CC will be marginally quicker than the current line via Market Street and Shudehill.

At the moment, Altrincham to Bury and East Didsbury to Shaw services are almost going in a circle.

I am actually in Manchester on Sunday. I cannot wait.

 

[185]

This, for me serves as a plan B when the job is stopped in the city. So many incidents in the city bringing the network to a halt - this allows an alternative.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This, for me serves as a plan B when the job is stopped in the city. So many incidents in the city bringing the network to a halt - this allows an alternative.

Unless the incidents occur in the section around St Peters Square, of course.

 

[WatcherZero]

Exchange Square has already become quite a heavily used stop even with its limited service.

 

[Bungle965]

Exchange Square has already become quite a heavily used stop even with its limited service.

I would very much agree with this, trams are very rarely empty going towards Exchange Square after Victoria except when shops are closed.
It can almost be a mini Market Street.
Sam

 

[Ianno87]

Unless the incidents occur in the section around St Peters Square, of course.

Given that this section is mainly segregated on viaduct (apart from the short bit past the Midland Hotel), the risk of "external" factors on the street running section bringing the network to a stand is greatly reduced.

Agree, if a vehicle fails at Cornbrook, I agree you're still a bit stuffed, but bringing the northern viaduct into use as well would cost an arm and a leg, as would the original 2CC option of a route along Chester Rd (which would slow journeys into the city considerably)

 

[BurtonM]

Line opens tomorrow!

 

[Chester1]

Unless the incidents occur in the section around St Peters Square, of course.

Given that this section is mainly segregated on viaduct (apart from the short bit past the Midland Hotel), the risk of "external" factors on the street running section bringing the network to a stand is greatly reduced.

Agree, if a vehicle fails at Cornbrook, I agree you're still a bit stuffed, but bringing the northern viaduct into use as well would cost an arm and a leg, as would the original 2CC option of a route along Chester Rd (which would slow journeys into the city considerably)

The 2CC is far from a perfect solution but there were few options for viable routes. I am surprised that the stretch from on street section from St Peters Square up to the embamkment around the side of Manchester Central was not four tracked as part of the 2CC works. There is enough space and would allow more flexibility and capacity entering St Peters Square from the west where the bottleneck is worst. The old viaduct wouldnt help much without further on street capacity. After the Trafford Park Line I cant see more capacity for more branches in the west of the city. The airport service could be extended from Victoria and the Piccadily and Etihad terminating services could be extended so there is capacity in the east of the city. Its a shame that the Ordsall chord will only support 4tph between Victoria and Piccadilly.

 

[Altfish]

The 2CC is far from a perfect solution but there were few options for viable routes. I am surprised that the stretch from on street section from St Peters Square up to the embamkment around the side of Manchester Central was not four tracked as part of the 2CC works. There is enough space and would allow more flexibility and capacity entering St Peters Square from the west where the bottleneck is worst. The old viaduct wouldnt help much without further on street capacity. After the Trafford Park Line I cant see more capacity for more branches in the west of the city. The airport service could be extended from Victoria and the Piccadily and Etihad terminating services could be extended so there is capacity in the east of the city. Its a shame that the Ordsall chord will only support 4tph between Victoria and Piccadilly.

I would say it is as good as we could get for the ££££s available, after all this is not London.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to my inaugural trip on 2CC tomorrow morning.

 

[Chester1]

I would say it is as good as we could get for the ££££s available, after all this is not London.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to my inaugural trip on 2CC tomorrow morning.

Me too. London projects are mainly funded through loans backed by future opperating profit, allot projects outside the south east would require day to day subsidy and never pay the capital cost. While there is a north vs south imbalance in infrastructure Greater Manchester has had about £1.6bn of train and tram infrastructure works in the last 8 years. This will rate should continue for another 4 years at least. So we are doing OK.

 

[Altfish]

First service tram on 2CC arrives at Victoria at 0640



The return tram arrives at St Peter's Square...

 

[miami]

Clicking your pictures pops up a spammy advert on a phone

 

[WatcherZero]

It links to the album on photobucket and photobucket now has ads.

 

[miami]

Click it on a phone, photo shows. About 3 seconds later the phone auto redirects to this: