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Metrolink to go regional?

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You'd think they'd been keen to sort out the localised network before branching out!
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ockport-metrolink-tram-train-strategy-8492513

Charlotte Cox said:
Transport bosses reveal plans to use special 'tram-train' to connect Stockport to Metrolink system

The ‘tram train’ technology - which allows adapted trams to use existing heavy rail lines - would allow the route to run along the Stockport-Altrincham-Chester line for much of the distance

Plans to connect Stockport to the Metrolink network with a special ‘tram train’ system have been revealed.

Proposals are on the table to create an orbital route running from Reddish through the Heatons into Stockport and then out through Edgeley, Cheadle Heath, Cheadle, Gatley and Baguley.

The ‘tram train’ technology - which allows adapted trams to use existing heavy rail lines - would allow the route to run along the Stockport-Altrincham-Chester line for much of the distance.

Tram train possibilities have been discussed previously by TfGM - and a £60m pilot using one of flexible vehicles is due to take place in Sheffield.

Its supporters say its use in Greater Manchester would reduce cost and inconvenience by minimising the amount of new track that has to be laid.

Cheadle MP Mark Hunter said: “These proposals, backed by Stockport council and TfGM, are a major step forward and there’s now a real opportunity to have trams running on the new line in a decade or less.....
 
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stockport1

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great. more *******ization of the mid Cheshire line. I cant wait to sit on a slow bumpy tram-turd from mouldsworth to get to Manchester.

the mid-Cheshire Altrincham- oxford road should have remained heavy rail.
 

TheKnightWho

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Will this be running on the southern portion of the Stockport to Stalybridge line then?
 

Ash Bridge

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Just followed the link from the Manchester Evening News to the Stockport Metropolitan Council, Stockport Rail Strategy, Dated January 2015. Only quickly perused through the first few pages and guess what? It recommends in the short to medium term that the class 101 trains need replacing with some urgency??
 

pemma

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Just followed the link from the Manchester Evening News to the Stockport Metropolitan Council, Stockport Rail Strategy, Dated January 2015. Only quickly perused through the first few pages and guess what? It recommends in the short to medium term that the class 101 trains need replacing with some urgency??

Stockport Metropolitan Council council once submitted a RUS response to Network Rail saying they supported the termination of Mid-Cheshire services at Stockport to allow more Intercity services. This was despite TfGM collectively agreeing that it was the wrong approach to take and there being no guarantee that extra services would stop at Stockport, meaning Stockport MC could have indirectly said they support service cuts for Stockport. :roll:
 

Bletchleyite

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Stockport Metropolitan Council council once submitted a RUS response to Network Rail saying they supported the termination of Mid-Cheshire services at Stockport to allow more Intercity services. This was despite TfGM collectively agreeing that it was the wrong approach to take and there being no guarantee that extra services would stop at Stockport, meaning Stockport MC could have indirectly said they support service cuts for Stockport. :roll:

Or maybe they see the bigger picture rather than just shouting for their own?

Neil
 

D1009

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great. more *******ization of the mid Cheshire line. I cant wait to sit on a slow bumpy tram-turd from mouldsworth to get to Manchester.

the mid-Cheshire Altrincham- oxford road should have remained heavy rail.
The main advantage of turning Altrincham-Oxford Road into a tramway is that it avoids having to fit in between the heavy rail services through Oxford Road, which are far more frequent now than when it happened. As a result there are far more trams than there used to be trains, and they are conveying a lot more people.

This latest proposal has no such advantage as the trams would use precious pathways across the main line at Stockport, which would severely restrict the number of services that could run. However it presumably make it possible to extend some of the existing tram services south of Altrincham.
 

Bletchleyite

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This latest proposal has no such advantage as the trams would use precious pathways across the main line at Stockport, which would severely restrict the number of services that could run. However it presumably make it possible to extend some of the existing tram services south of Altrincham.

Is there scope for leaving the railway at the junction, and going up the A6 as far as rejoining the Stockport-Stalybridge line, then following that into Victoria?

Neil
 

pemma

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Or maybe they see the bigger picture rather than just shouting for their own?

Very unlikely. If they did they would have stressed either extra Intercity services will need to call at Stockport or extra carriages will be needed on other Stockport-Manchester services.

At the time Stockport MBC were under the impression that every train must stop at Stockport because it's in the rail regulations. However, Arriva XC said 'prove it' and Stockport MBC couldn't.
 

TheKnightWho

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The main advantage of turning Altrincham-Oxford Road into a tramway is that it avoids having to fit in between the heavy rail services through Oxford Road, which are far more frequent now than when it happened. As a result there are far more trams than there used to be trains, and they are conveying a lot more people.

This latest proposal has no such advantage as the trams would use precious pathways across the main line at Stockport, which would severely restrict the number of services that could run. However it presumably make it possible to extend some of the existing tram services south of Altrincham.

For this to be feasible, a flyover/flyunder would be absolutely necessary.
 

pemma

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However it presumably make it possible to extend some of the existing tram services south of Altrincham.

TfGM have dismissed that option at the moment and said alternative heavy rail options need to be looked at instead. The Stockport-Altrincham proposal is only a potential option they haven't completely dismissed. Marple is TfGM's preferred tram-train option and has been for some time.
 
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Bletchleyite

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TfGM have dismissed that option at the moment and said alternative heavy rail options need to be looked at instead. The Stockport-Altrincham proposal is only a potential option they haven't completely dismissed. Marple is TfGM's preferred tram-train option and has been for some time.

Not to say there can't be more than one. There might be a significant benefit (Pacer replacement?) on changing over all purely local services in Greater Manchester to Metrolink, leaving rail for regional services going beyond the PTE area or immediate surrounds.

Neil
 

pemma

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Not to say there can't be more than one. There might be a significant benefit (Pacer replacement?) on changing over all purely local services in Greater Manchester to Metrolink, leaving rail for regional services going beyond the PTE area or immediate surrounds.

Neil

At the moment TfGM's plan is:

TfGM said:
Altrincham (tram-train operation on the existing route)
The Altrincham route would involve tram-train operation of the existing
Manchester – Altrincham Metrolink service on the section of route
through Navigation Road Station, where heavy-rail and Metrolink services
currently run on parallel single-line routes, causing a bottleneck on the
Metrolink network.

The cost-benefit case for tram-train operation through this section of
double track is only moderate. However, there could be as yet
unquantified benefits in the form of increased flexibility of operation for
the Metrolink network as a whole through unblocking the present
bottleneck at Navigation Road (see “Metrolink network opportunities
created” in Appendix 2).

The case for this route depends on whether and to what extent the
benefits that can be expected to be delivered by the TMS signalling
system allow for an increase in frequency that otherwise could be
achieved through Tram Train operation.


Glossop
This route could form part of Phase 2 of a tram-train strategy. To achieve
that would require working with Network Rail to preserve the four-track
rail alignment between Ashburys and Guide Bridge and to preserve the
possibility of tram-train access to the alignment following track
remodelling in the Ashburys area. The rationale for not proposing
inclusion of Glossop in Phase 1 of the tram-train strategy is:
 there is insufficient city-centre capacity to accommodate both Marple
and Glossop routes at 10tph (although it may well be feasible in the
long term to accommodate both routes either through terminating
certain services at Piccadilly Station or through operating each route
at a 6tph frequency); and
 Marple outperforms Glossop both in terms of social cost-benefit
analysis and whole-life financial cost to the public sector.

Hale and Knutsford
Extending an Altrincham tram-train service to Hale leads to reduced
value for money. Therefore no further development work is
recommended for an extension to Hale.

The capital and operating costs of an extension to Knutsford appear too
high for a worthwhile business case to be made in the foreseeable future.
It is recommended that the appraisal of the route be reviewed to confirm
that its conclusions are robust, but subject to that, it is recommended that
no further tram-train development work be carried out for the Mid-Cheshire
line south of Altrincham. Heavy rail based options may need to
be investigated to make better use of the Mid-Cheshire line.


Hazel Grove
This route could form part of Phase 2 of a tram-train strategy as such it
could form the first stage in development of a tram-train network serving
Stockport, Altrincham, and the Manchester Airport area. This would
require working with local authorities (mainly Stockport but also
Manchester City Council) to protect the alignment between East Didsbury
and the Adswood freight line. Although the stand alone cost benefit case
for Hazel Grove tram-train is only moderate, there are opportunities for
generating network benefits not counted in the appraisal.

Marple
In view of its strong performance, develop further as a potential first full
tram-train line in Greater Manchester, subject to:
 confirming that an acceptable route between Piccadilly Station and
Ashburys looks to be achievable (several options are currently under
consideration); and
 confirming that the longer tram-train vehicles can be introduced into
the city centre without creating substantial delays to existing Metrolink
users.

It is recommended that Marple be developed as a potential Phase 1 of a
Greater Manchester tram-train strategy, comprising the best-performing
routes. For a six-minute headway service in which Marple services
operated alternately to Altrincham and Bury, it is estimated that
approximately 24 new tram-train vehicles would be needed, although
many other service patterns would be possible, and so vehicle
requirements at this stage are uncertain.

The early implementation of the tram-train route with the strongest
business case is expected to improve the case for implementing the other
routes in the proposed network, which will benefit from shared
infrastructure.

Stockport -Altrincham
In view of its poor performance as a stand-alone scheme, but its potential
as a component of a rapid-transit network serving the rapidly-expanding
Manchester Airport area, it is recommended that this route be considered
as part of a possible future separate study of transport to the Manchester
Airport area, which would take into account (among other things) the
transport requirements of the Airport City Enterprise Zone and the
proposed Manchester Airport HS2 Station. An interchange at Baguley
could be a key element in such a network, together with the Western
Loop section of the Metrolink Airport Extension not included in the current
Phase 3 Programme.

Wigan via Atherton
This scheme would create a network of tram-train-based Metrolink
extensions that would be more balanced between the north and south of
the county. Of the routes considered in this report, it also presents the
greatest scope to refine the alignment proposals and to better capture
appraisal benefits. There are also opportunities (yet to be explored) to
exploit synergies with the existing and planned Metrolink network in the
city centre.

It is recommended that the existing appraisal be reviewed and alternative
routes and service-options considered.
http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/capital_projects_and_policy_agenda_papers_8_11_13.pdf

Note that Metrolink don't want to use bi-mode trains so they'll either need to electrify shared track as AC and order dual-voltage trains (more costly) or electrify lines which have no potential for future electrification as DC.
 
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TheKnightWho

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pemma

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Dual voltage trains would seem far more likely here. In the long term, it will save a lot of headaches.

Agreed. It was also make Glossop a cheap conversion given it already has AC overheads, while the Atherton line would prove very costly to convert.
 

TheKnightWho

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Agreed. It was also make Glossop a cheap conversion given it already has AC overheads, while the Atherton line would prove very costly to convert.

By convert do you mean conversion to Metrolink? Because there'd be no point rewiring Glossop with DC if they already had AC capable trains.
 

stockport1

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allowing heavy trains on Altrincham-Manchester makes sense. would free up paths through stockport. probably be good to restore some of the stations to 4 platforms and put 4 tracking back in place where it once existed.

heavy rail could do semi-fast altrincham-sale-oxford road ->onwards
while high frequency trams could maintain fairly high frequency for the rest of the stops.
 

pemma

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By convert do you mean conversion to Metrolink? Because there'd be no point rewiring Glossop with DC if they already had AC capable trains.

If they're proposing 5 tram-trains per hour to Glossop then I doubt the existing train service would be retained alongside that. I imagine the reason for proposing tram-train is so they can share heavy rail tracks between Guide Bridge and Victoria and then go on to the street after Victoria.
 

Bletchleyite

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allowing heavy trains on Altrincham-Manchester makes sense. would free up paths through stockport. probably be good to restore some of the stations to 4 platforms and put 4 tracking back in place where it once existed.

I don't agree - cities have too few orbital type connections, and this is potentially a useful one.

Neil
 

185

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I'm of the view it is wasteful, and tram train is too complex and expensive to combine with heavy rail. My solution involves a new 2.5 mile link from the Chester line along the M56, under the main runway and direct through the Airport rail station.

Metrolink could be extended to Knutsford, and the Nav Road-Stockport be converted to Metrolink proper.
 

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pemma

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allowing heavy trains on Altrincham-Manchester makes sense. would free up paths through stockport. probably be good to restore some of the stations to 4 platforms and put 4 tracking back in place where it once existed.

heavy rail could do semi-fast altrincham-sale-oxford road ->onwards
while high frequency trams could maintain fairly high frequency for the rest of the stops.

I think that's 99.9% unlikely to happen now.

There is the option of building a new line between the end of the Airport spur and Mobberley which would have wider benefits e.g. faster services between the Airport and North Wales. However, the issue would be how best to serve Ashley, Hale, Altrincham and Navigation Rd.
 

Ash Bridge

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Is there scope for leaving the railway at the junction, and going up the A6 as far as rejoining the Stockport-Stalybridge line, then following that into Victoria?

Neil

I was thinking something similar, maybe there has been some consideration to using the former CLC route from Northenden Junc. towards Stockport rather than the existing line through Cheadle which could remain heavy rail, it could then easily merge with a future extension from East Didsbury. The former CLC is built over as it comes into Stockport so a new route would need to be constructed from the site of the former Junc. with the Midland Railway at Cheadle Heath taking the tramway over the M60 and running alongside it until eventually running in to the area of the current Stockport bus station. From here itcould be possible for street running up the A6 to the Heaton Norris area where possibly a connection with the Heaton Norris -Guide Bridge line could be made. Having said all that some CP would obviously be required, I shall now wait to get shot down;)
 

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There is the option of building a new line between the end of the Airport spur and Mobberley which would have wider benefits e.g. faster services between the Airport and North Wales. However, the issue would be how best to serve Ashley, Hale, Altrincham and Navigation Rd.

Rationally?

Extend Metrolink to Hale and close Ashley as it's in the middle of nowhere.

Ashley and Mobberley are places that have rail services for reasons of convenience and because they always have had. They are no more justifying of rail services than Barlaston and Wedgewood, and definitely less justifying than Polesworth and Norton Bridge.

Neil
 

stockport1

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Eh?

Didn't you propose withdrawing Stockport-Altrincham completely, replaced by heavy rail trains running Altrincham-Oxford Road and beyond? That would lose a valuable orbital connection, whereas replacing it with a tram-train wouldn't.

Neil

a valuable orbital connection with single track and tight radius curve that always seem to be waiting for a path at edgely and never seem to get above 40 mph?

Not saying drop the service but wouldnt the people of Northwich,knutsford and cuddington be better served with an improved semi fast commuter service to Manchester and chester..
 

pemma

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Rationally?

Extend Metrolink to Hale and close Ashley as it's in the middle of nowhere.

Ashley and Mobberley are places that have rail services for reasons of convenience and because they always have had. They are no more justifying of rail services than Barlaston and Wedgewood, and definitely less justifying than Polesworth and Norton Bridge.

Neil

One major omission in that - no train service to Altrincham from Cheshire! Really there should be 2tph between Northwich and Altrincham even if the Airport line gets built.
 
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