MG'11d by my 'favourite' FCC RPI - combined Z123 & Z456 ticket

[jon0844]

I will elaborate on the details later, but to cut a long story short - I met my friendly RPI this morning (not seen him in months) who tried to do me for sitting in first class on the 0839 from Hatfield (0902 HAT) to KGX.

He confirmed he was right by consulting the timetable from December-May 2011, so I then pointed out it was June. He then pulled out a new timetable and realised I was right (it changed in May).

So, he then decided to take close attention to my ticket combination (Travelcard Hatfield > Z456) and an Oyster Z123. He decided it was invalid as I had no ticket from Z3-4.

As such he decided, after making some calls to people who seemed to back him up, to report me - and then had to make me, under caution, confirm every day back to the start of the year that I had travelled. From 0905 when he first spoke to me to the final statement and signature, it was 1210. Over THREE hours.

I even produced a letter (PDF) from a member here who sent me a copy of a letter from FCC confirming Z123 and Z456 are valid combinations for another passenger, but he chose to ignore it and proceed anyway.

The only 'upside' is that he didn't realise just how much work he'd made for himself, so while I opted to wait it out (to ensure he didn't write anything I didn't agree to in my absence) his poor colleague was incredibly bored at Finsbury Park, where I got off.

So, is a ticket combination valid if it's 123 & 456? They tried to find a boundary zone 3 and boundary zone 4 fare on their terminal to bridge the gap but failed to find it, so they told me to buy a Z3-4 season (week) to cover me, which cost £20.40 and was added to the second slot of my Oyster. Now, according to them, I had a ticket that covered the gap.

Please tell me I am not going mad, but that now means I have paid twice for cover of zones 3 and 4 right?

Ironically, the lady at the ticket office at Finsbury Park confirmed I was right, but then once she realised revenue were involved withdrew it and referred me to her manager, who sided with revenue - even going so far as to say that Oyster didn't cover to Hatfield and I wasn't using the Underground but the 'RAILWAY' which she said as if I didn't understand English. When I wrote her name down, she then came out and demanded to know my name to which I told her she could get it from the RPI!

 

[island]

You're correct. Z123 + Z456 covers the full journey, and you may use multiple zonal tickets for a single journey if you like.

Time for a very strong letter to FCC, and I think some substantial cash compensation from them to you for your three hours.

 

[Lampshade]

I don't see why this wouldn't be valid, that idiot should be out of a job.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, both are zonal tickets.

The station that falls into zone 3 is different to the one that falls into zone 4, so the thought is that I don't have a valid ticket between those two.

However, for extensions, you do boundary tickets. They can't issue a BZ3 to BZ4 as it doesn't exist. I wonder WHY it doesn't exist!!

 

[penaltyfines]

I will elaborate on the details later, but to cut a long story short - I met my friendly RPI this morning (not seen him in months) who tried to do me for sitting in first class on the 0839 from Hatfield (0902 HAT) to KGX.

He confirmed he was right by consulting the timetable from December-May 2011, so I then pointed out it was June. He then pulled out a new timetable and realised I was right (it changed in May).

So, he then decided to take close attention to my ticket combination (Travelcard Hatfield > Z456) and an Oyster Z123. He decided it was invalid as I had no ticket from Z3-4.

As such he decided, after making some calls to people who seemed to back him up, to report me - and then had to make me, under caution, confirm every day back to the start of the year that I had travelled. From 0905 when he first spoke to me to the final statement and signature, it was 1210. Over THREE hours.

I even produced a letter (PDF) from a member here who sent me a copy of a letter from FCC confirming Z123 and Z456 are valid combinations for another passenger, but he chose to ignore it and proceed anyway.

The only 'upside' is that he didn't realise just how much work he'd made for himself, so while I opted to wait it out (to ensure he didn't write anything I didn't agree to in my absence) his poor colleague was incredibly bored at Finsbury Park, where I got off.

So, is a ticket combination valid if it's 123 & 456? They tried to find a boundary zone 3 and boundary zone 4 fare on their terminal to bridge the gap but failed to find it, so they told me to buy a Z3-4 season (week) to cover me, which cost £20.40 and was added to the second slot of my Oyster. Now, according to them, I had a ticket that covered the gap.

Please tell me I am not going mad, but that now means I have paid twice for cover of zones 3 and 4 right?

Ironically, the lady at the ticket office at Finsbury Park confirmed I was right, but then once she realised revenue were involved withdrew it and referred me to her manager, who sided with revenue - even going so far as to say that Oyster didn't cover to Hatfield and I wasn't using the Underground but the 'RAILWAY' which she said as if I didn't understand English. When I wrote her name down, she then came out and demanded to know my name to which I told her she could get it from the RPI!

Out of interest - why did you enter into conversation with him? Surely it would have been much quicker to say 'no comment' and just show him the tickets, then write a quick letter saying 'The tickets were valid, see you in court' sort of thing to follow it up?

 

[LexyBoy]

You do seem to have terrible luck Jon! Perhaps suggest that an annual FC season would be adequate compensation would be good to see your favourite RPI's face...

 

[jon0844]

Out of interest - why did you enter into conversation with him? Surely it would have been much quicker to say 'no comment' and just show him the tickets, then write a quick letter saying 'The tickets were valid, see you in court' sort of thing to follow it up?

No comment would have been easier, but I am so angry I want to take this all the way to court if necessary. I am not going to deny I have been using this ticket combination since the start of the year (hence him having to repeatedly ask me over and over for the first month of days, then weeks, then months (his notepad is probably nothing but MY case now).

I have now emailed Roy Cooper (Fares & Pricing Manager) at FCC and included a copy of the letter he sent to another member here. I hope that person doesn't mind it being attached below as his/her address has been blanked out!

View attachment FCC - NCOC condition 19(a).pdf

I do think that this RPI seems to take great pleasure in trying to get back at me for getting in trouble (he admitted that, perhaps inadvertently, as he talked to me) over the situation at Welwyn Garden City some time ago.

 

[clagmonster]

I would say that you need to use Condition 19:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire
journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the
tickets was valid.
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket
(excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

The first requirement is for the tickets to cover the whole journey. We can see from a London Connections map that this is the case as zones 3 and 4 clearly meet between New Southgate and Ally Pally. There is not even a dividing line between them. See: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf

The second and final requirement is that one of clauses a, b anc c are satisfied. Both tickets are Zonal tickets, so clause a is satisfied. Clauses b and c are not.

The only thing of cancern for me is condition 3.6 of the Oyster Conditions for National Rail, which requires you to touch in when starting your journey. However, I think this clause may cover you:
"You can still use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed)."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/Oystercou.pdf
You started your journey at Hatfield, where there is no yellow reader and you showed your Oystercard on demand to the TTI.

One thing I wish to clarify, are both tickets routed 'any permitted'?

I would obtain, from an FCC station, a copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and a London Connections map as soon as possible. I would also advise researching a decent legal firm for such matters (others on here can probably help) in case it gets that far.

 

[RJ]

It is a valid combination as stated in the NRCoC Condition 19b.
Tangentially related I know, but if one travels from Zone 1-6 using a Zone 1-2 Oyster, the remainder is charged from Zone 3 - 6. I wouldn't use that example as part of a defence in this matter, the point being it is not always necessary to pay twice for any stretch of a journey.

Time for you to get backup from some powerful friends....

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure about the Oyster as the record card is different, but my other ticket is Any Permitted (Hatfield > Z456).

I would hope FCC drop this quick smart given the letter confirming it's okay for another passenger (albeit replacing Hatfield with St Neots). I don't fancy making this take up my whole life - the last one over a silly ticket extension took long enough!

If I am right, I am going to ask for half a day of pay, which I may be docked as unauthorised leave. They (FCC) might argue that I was told I was free to go at any time (and to be fair, I was) but I felt obliged to see this out.

 

[Ferret]

I am not sure about the Oyster as the record card is different, but my other ticket is Any Permitted (Hatfield > Z456).

I would hope FCC drop this quick smart given the letter confirming it's okay for another passenger (albeit replacing Hatfield with St Neots). I don't fancy making this take up my whole life - the last one over a silly ticket extension took long enough!

If I am right, I am going to ask for half a day of pay, which I may be docked as unauthorised leave. They (FCC) might argue that I was told I was free to go at any time (and to be fair, I was) but I felt obliged to see this out.

I bet he was chuffed - thinking he'd got you! I'd really love to see the look on his face when you walk into Court with a letter from FCC stating that the combination is valid! Man will he be pi##ed off! If I was you I'd lay it on thick about him clearly having a vendetta!

 

[jon0844]

Let's be honest, if I am right (and I believe 99.99% that I am) it isn't going to go to court. They won't allow it.

I would gladly go to court on this.

I'd love to see them prove intent too, as every single question along the lines of 'did you have a valid ticket' was answered 'yes' and every question about did I intend not to pay was 'no'. Even if they could prove I was wrong, quoting the NrCOC in a different interpretation, they still can't prove intent and I'd expect to be merely asked to pay the difference.

Even today, I've already (in case) purchased the Z3-4 season for a week (with a receipt!) which I did in front of them. That even covers the trip I was 'caught' on.

 

[Ferret]

Even today, I've already (in case) purchased the Z3-4 season for a week (with a receipt!) which I did in front of them. That even covers the trip I was 'caught' on.

Why did you do that if you know your combo is valid?!

 

[jon0844]

Why did you do that if you know your combo is valid?!

I can't know 100% so I'm not going to risk being stopped again on the way home. If I am right, I will claim that ticket back.

I don't see it as admission of guilt - as it's either right or wrong. It's not open to interpretation.

I was told by the RPOs colleague to speak to someone at London Underground, so it would be good if some of the regulars on here could comment how they treat a Z123 and Z456 combination.

 

[MikeWh]

Your combination is 100% valid. The Z1-3 ticket on Oyster is as any permitted as you can get. It is valid on ALL trains, tubes, dlr, buses and trams within zones 1-3 with the single exception of SET between St Pancras and Stratford. There is no such thing as no-mans land between any pair of adjacent zones in London. When mixing Oyster travelcards and PAYG it will always charge you from an imaginary station on the boundary (unless there's a real one like Vauxhall or Lewisham).

If I was the senior manager responsible for that RPI then today would be his last day of work. The guy clearly has a vendetta against you and has a serious problem about being proved wrong. I hope you take this all the way until you get at least a half days pay and the weekly travelcard refunded.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Oh dear Jon, that RPI is really bizarre! Reminds me of a mate who had a travelcard from Winchester marked to Z1256. We got off the LUL at Greenford Z4 and the barrier guy said that wasn't valid! Good luck in this.

 

[Ferret]

I can't know 100% so I'm not going to risk being stopped again on the way home. If I am right, I will claim that ticket back.

I don't see it as admission of guilt - as it's either right or wrong. It's not open to interpretation.

I was told by the RPOs colleague to speak to someone at London Underground, so it would be good if some of the regulars on here could comment how they treat a Z123 and Z456 combination.

With all due respect, you say you bought that extra ticket in front of them so they probably will see it as an admission of guilt. With all due respect, you probably have made an error there!

 

[b0b]

With all due respect, you say you bought that extra ticket in front of them so they probably will see it as an admission of guilt. With all due respect, you probably have made an error there!

only if FCC find out or he admits it.

It's a shame Jon talked during the MG11 process, it could have been much more fun to just say 'i wish to remain silent'.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps, but could I even plead guilty to something that isn't a crime? I can assure you I made it very clear that I was doing this to avoid any problems later on.

Also, off-topic, as they worked a train where he thought it had first class (as he had opted to use an out of date timetable), I wonder if he issued any PFs before I boarded (and there are two first class compartments on a 8-car 321). When I pointed out it was declassified, that would mean any PFs issued to others would have been invalid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

only if FCC find out or he admits it.

It's a shame Jon talked during the MG11 process, it could have been much more fun to just say 'i wish to remain silent'.

My answers were always making it clear I was stating I had a valid ticket for every single journey I made. It would be hard to prove intent from what I said, but it wouldn't surprise me if he tried - except I doubt he'll make the decision on that!

The only deviation was the week holiday I had where I answered 'no' to the question of whether I used my ticket. He even wrote for every single date the ticket combination I had, so he's effectively written a valid combination multiple times on the statement.

 

[Ferret]

Well Jon, I'm looking forward to the rest of this tale anyway - it could be very amusing.

 

[Wolf_359]

However, for extensions, you do boundary tickets. They can't issue a BZ3 to BZ4 as it doesn't exist. I wonder WHY it doesn't exist!!

It doesn't exist as when you issue from a boundary it is to a station outside of that zone.

EG Boundary Z4 to Harrow & Wealdstone or Boundary Z6 to Hemel Hempstead. etc.

 

[jon0844]

I should add that even after going through all of this, he didn't at any time say he would confiscate my train tickets! This is despite him thinking I've been defrauding the company since Jan 3rd 2011.

I really think he thought he was being clever, and misjudged how much of his own time he was going to waste. It makes me wonder how far he'd go in the future to mess up my day.

 

[Ferret]

I should add that even after going through all of this, he didn't at any time say he would confiscate my train tickets! This is despite him thinking I've been defrauding the company since Jan 3rd 2011.

I really think he thought he was being clever, and misjudged how much of his own time he was going to waste. It makes me wonder how far he'd go in the future to mess up my day.

I don't think he's been very clever at all. In fact, although I can't really go into it here, you've told me enough to know he's not a very competent RPI and needs retraining in how to do his job, before we even talk about his ticket knowledge (or the lack there of)...

 

[jon0844]

In case he later finds out that he was totally wrong and pretends the whole event didn't happen, I did sneak a photo;



You can see that, as usual, he doesn't like to wear a name badge.

 

[transportphoto]

In case he later finds out that he was totally wrong and pretends the whole event didn't happen, I did sneak a photo;

View attachment 6551

You can see that, as usual, he doesn't like to wear a name badge.

Jon, I am in total agreement that your ticket combination is totally valid. And this RPI is wasting his time! I will keep an eye for him next time I travel FCC.

 

[OwlMan]

If it had been me I would have been down Hertford House (! Cranwood Street by Old Street Station) as quick as possiblq and would not have left until it was sorted

Peter

 

[jon0844]

I've been there before but didn't fancy just turning up so they could get security to remove me.

 

[Aictos]

Edited due to content

 

[DarloRich]

@ OP - just one thing to consider - IF FCC want to try it on they will say the letter has no precedent, situations were different, it was a long time ago, rules have chnaged etc etc.

THEN instruct high cost lawyers and try to bully/scare you into giving up. They will let you run up costs as much as possible and then settle " on the court house steps" with the aim of leaving you as out of pocket a possible.

OR just give in and admit a mistake.

Either way they will be after you!

 

[jon0844]

I have spoken to four people now, two LUL gate staff and two FCC revenue staff on the way home and all four seemed confused about what I was even asking before making it clear it is fine as I have tickets that cover all six zones.

I then found out a little more about my friend, who was recently promoted to a new fraud team.

Seems a few staff were upset he got the promotion. They told me I must complain and handed me a form there and then. I suspect some of his colleages would like to see him dealt with too.

Sent from my Sony Ericsson Xperia arc via Tapatalk.