Mid Cheshire Line

[jfollows]

We're told there are no spare paths between Stockport and Piccadilly yet the Hope Valley locals have been diverted via Stockport.

I think "no paths available" means that the timetables planning rules (for example, https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/operational-rules/Operational Rules/TPR 2025/V3/TPR 2025 V3 NWC.pdf) won't allow more trains to be "timetabled" in order to allow the timetable to be robust (and the 2018 experience showed that even that wasn't the case) but running extra trains will always be possible at a potential cost, they're two different things.

In the infamous 2018 timetable there were trains which didn’t stop at Stockport, or omitted only one of Levenshulme or Heaton Chapel, which was presumably to squeeze the trains into the timetable in compliance with the rules, so although the rules will be enforced they sometimes lead to a bit of nonsense in reality on the ground. The revised timetable since 2018 has removed these quirks.

 

[mangyiscute]

Could it be possible to run a second service from say Stockport or Altrincham along the line to Northwich then down the line to Crewe? It would serve what looks like the more populated area of the line and provide a lot more connection options since Crewe is such a big hub.
Definitely getting into Speculative Discussion now, but a station at Middlewich would surely be well used as well if an hourly service along this line was provided.

 

[Rail Quest]

Could it be possible to run a second service from say Stockport or Altrincham along the line to Northwich then down the line to Crewe? It would serve what looks like the more populated area of the line and provide a lot more connection options since Crewe is such a big hub.
Definitely getting into Speculative Discussion now, but a station at Middlewich would surely be well used as well if an hourly service along this line was provided.

Interesting idea, though I'm assuming that would probably require an upgrade of the Northwich to Sandback section as it's got a really low speed limit for the entire length and already busy(ish) with freight.

 

[jfollows]

Interesting idea, though I'm assuming that would probably require an upgrade of the Northwich to Sandback section as it's got a really low speed limit for the entire length and already busy(ish) with freight.

You’ve been listening to the automated station announcements!

But there were just 9 freight services in both directions yesterday, I don’t know how normal that is, but it’s definitely not a bad idea. I think it’s previously been discussed quite a lot on different threads.

 

[The Planner]

Could it be possible to run a second service from say Stockport or Altrincham along the line to Northwich then down the line to Crewe? It would serve what looks like the more populated area of the line and provide a lot more connection options since Crewe is such a big hub.
Definitely getting into Speculative Discussion now, but a station at Middlewich would surely be well used as well if an hourly service along this line was provided.

Middlewich reopening has gone deathly quiet. Its also very very slow along there. The only place you could hide that train is in P1 at Crewe, and that is occupied between xx.38 and xx.46 along with xx.57 to xx.16 ignoring reoccupation margins. It would likely have to sit in a xx.19 to xx.35 gap to work, which automatically constrains it significantly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You’ve been listening to the automated station announcements!

Fairly sure it now says "Sand-batch". Anyhoo, we digress.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Crewe may be remodelled at some stage? There is a siding where trains can stand clear of platform 1.

 

[Rail Quest]

You’ve been listening to the automated station announcements!

It's a Friday - my brain is mush. That gets me a pass, right?

 

[Trainman40083]

We're told there are no spare paths between Stockport and Piccadilly yet the Hope Valley locals have been diverted via Stockport.

Ah the joys of a landslip at New Mills. Has another service been reduced, to allow it, it just praying all runs on time.

Crewe may be remodelled at some stage? There is a siding where trains can stand clear of platform 1.

Yes some terminators terminate in 1, and pull out to the siding near the Crewe Arms Hotel. Allows other services to use 1, sometimes the Euston to Manchester via Crewe.

 

[The Planner]

Crewe may be remodelled at some stage? There is a siding where trains can stand clear of platform 1.

No, all that has been dropped when HS2 phase 2 was cancelled. You still have to plan and have margins for the outstabling. In the case of the current timetable, it would be in the siding for a matter of minutes before it had to come back.

 

[mangyiscute]

No, all that has been dropped when HS2 phase 2 was cancelled. You still have to plan and have margins for the outstabling. In the case of the current timetable, it would be in the siding for a matter of minutes before it had to come back.

I guess you could have interoperability with the train that arrives at xx:57 and leaves at xx:16 - have the Middlewich train arrive at say xx:05 (just ahead of the TfW service) and form the xx:16, then the xx:57 has gone into the siding before coming back out to form say an xx:33 back via Middlewich (just behind the TfW service). Assuming roughly 25-30 mins for Crewe to Northwich (after line speed upgrades), this would match up pretty well with ensuring a half-hourly frequency for Altrincham to Northwich, and the trains could pass at Middlewich as well (this assumes about 10 mins for Northwich to Middlewich and 15 mins for Crewe to Middlewich, which seems reasonable) meaning the single line there wouldn't be too much of an issue.

Whether the train could run anywhere past Altrincham is the biggest issue, as if it terminated there I don't see too much usage and also I'm not sure where the train would sit, considering it would have a 40 min turnaround and clearly couldn't occupy the platform during this time, but I don't see a way to make it go any further due to the number of freight paths.

 

[Krokodil]

I guess you could have interoperability with the train that arrives at xx:57 and leaves at xx:16

Are you also proposing to electrify Middlewich, or will Northern require a further batch of 195s in order to run them under the wires as the Manchester to Crewe stopper instead of an electric unit?

 

[Greybeard33]

Whether the train could run anywhere past Altrincham is the biggest issue, as if it terminated there I don't see too much usage and also I'm not sure where the train would sit, considering it would have a 40 min turnaround and clearly couldn't occupy the platform during this time, but I don't see a way to make it go any further due to the number of freight paths.

It is possible to terminate a train at Altrincham. The Down (Chester bound) line between Navigation Road and Altrincham is bidirectional, with a facing crossover just north of Altrincham station to allow an Up train to access it. Therefore a terminating train can shunt forward from Platform 3 on to the Up line, clear of the crossover, and remain there during its layover time. Any following Up freight can overtake it by crossing over to the bidirectional line. The empty train can then shunt forward into Navigation Road station to reverse and return to Altrincham Platform 4 for departure back towards Chester.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It is possible to terminate a train at Altrincham. The Down (Chester bound) line between Navigation Road and Altrincham is bidirectional, with a facing crossover just north of Altrincham station to allow an Up train to access it. Therefore a terminating train can shunt forward from Platform 3 on to the Up line, clear of the crossover, and remain there during its layover time. Any following Up freight can overtake it by crossing over to the bidirectional line. The empty train can then shunt forward into Navigation Road station to reverse and return to Altrincham Platform 4 for departure back towards Chester.

Not the worst idea, if do-able. Alternatively, could the Downs Goods Loop near to Skelton Junction be used / brought back into use, as a refuge siding?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Sections of rail have been replaced with plain track at the entrance to the loop at the Skelton Junction end and the loop itself is totally overgrown with vegetation.

 

[yorksrob]

There is an hourly dmu service (2 hourly on Sundays) which is adequate for the limited traffic in this semi-rural area, except at peak hours when some additional trains are provided. It was the existence of the stone traffic from the Peak District to the chemical works in Northwich that saved the line in the 1960s, and its subsequent use for other freight traffic east of the WCML has prevented its subsequent closure. The line is at the back of the queue for enhancements; people should be grateful that it still exists.

This is absolutely the wrong attitude for rail passengers to take. Supinely waiting for the establishment to offer crumbs from the table while clutching our caps and tugging our forelocks in pathetic gratitude.

We should aspire to better services. This line is particularly valuable serving some sizable settlements and providing an alternative route to Chester.

I travel on the line frequently which is annoying because its one of my least favourite on the Northern network. I think the single track sections all contribute to a bottleneck, particularly the section through Navigation road given how long it takes freight trains to crawl through and the fact that any Northern service has to stop at the station.

As for journey times, I imagine the service would be a lot quicker if it was able to run express down what is now the metrolink, though, I doubt that'll ever happen in any form.


I really don't like the use of sprinters on the line either (which, TBF, is how I feel about any route those trains are used on) given how slow, uncomfortable, and loud they are. A change of traction would be the only easy(ish) way of improving the service but that sounds like its not happening if the only real alternative (195s) are not allowed down it for whatever reason (I'd love to know the reason for this)

It's a shame because Northwich/Greenbank and Knutsford are pretty large towns that deserve a better service frankly.


These additional services (particularly the morning ones) are very frequently cancelled via P-coded cancellations. I've never been able to rely on them.

Funnily enough, it's one of my favourite routes. A nice rural line with lots of character. A half hourly service would be better though.

 

[QueensCurve]

Of course, at the time, most passenger rail traffic to/from the Mid Cheshire line would have been routed via Sale, rather than via Northenden, which ended with the coming of the Metrolink tram system in the early 1990s.

All services were routed via Sale before Metrolink came along.

Of course the mid cheshire would be a different proposition if we were capable of building 3 miles of track into the airport.........

Why has this never happened?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Why has this never happened?

Cost. The Manchester Airport Western Link from Mobberley to Manchester Airport was in Railtrack's 2000 Network Management Statement but of course Hatfield happened in 2001. Passive provision was made for the Western Link when the third platform was provided at Manchester Airport station and this platform is on the alignment of the Western Link. The link would be quite expensive because it would entail tunnelling under the Airport apron. It would of course revolutionise journey times from North Wales, Chester, Northwich and Knutsford to the Airport and to Manchester. Services could also potentially run from Liverpool to the Airport and beyond via the Hartford curve.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Of course, at the time, most passenger rail traffic to/from the Mid Cheshire line would have been routed via Sale, rather than via Northenden, which ended with the coming of the Metrolink tram system in the early 1990s.

All services were routed via Sale before Metrolink came along.

Not sure you're quite right there. Mid Cheshire line DMU services first started being routinely diverted via Northenden in May 1989 (on Sundays, it was a year later in May 1990) so, over two years before the Metrolink system opened in mid 1992. The last electric service between Manchester and Altrincham via Sale was on Christmas Eve 1991 before the six month conversion.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The diversion via Stockport was in fact due to the May 1989 Windsor Link timetable.

 

[snowball]

Cost. The Manchester Airport Western Link from Mobberley to Manchester Airport was in Railtrack's 2000 Network Management Statement but of course Hatfield happened in 2001. Passive provision was made for the Western Link when the third platform was provided at Manchester Airport station and this platform is on the alignment of the Western Link. The link would be quite expensive because it would entail tunnelling under the Airport apron. It would of course revolutionise journey times from North Wales, Chester, Northwich and Knutsford to the Airport and to Manchester. Services could also potentially run from Liverpool to the Airport and beyond via the Hartford curve.

If I remember correctly, the airport tried to leave out the western link from its development plan during a routine revision a few years ago, but was prevailed on to leave it in. However the inclusion is probably nominal, not implying much chance it will happen.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The diversion via Sale was in fact due to the May 1989 Windsor Link timetable.

Do you mean diversion via Baguley/Northenden?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Yes!

 

[Lost property]

A mere normal writes.

In days gone by, the frequency in DMU days, and later, was never what you would call....extensive and even less so on a Sunday.

When the line from Stockport to Skelton Jnc was dual, it was predominantly freight, not just ICI limestone carriers, but seemed to get the occasional passenger train. I understood it had to be upgraded to carry passenger trains, plus, was reduced to a single track once the lines to Broadheath / West Timperley were closed.

I assume the passing loop mentioned at Skelton is the one visible from Moss Lane bridge, on the right, looking towards Stockport which used to be well used.

I found it hilarious when somebody suggested a service not stopping at Hale....can you imagine the screeching and howls of privileged protest that would follow...this from the same demographic who tried, and failed, to stop those nasty freight trains running at night a few years ago.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Yes the line between Skelton Junction and Stockport was upgraded to 75mph for the diversion of the passenger trains that way from May 1989. The singling between Sharston Junction and Cheadle Village Junction was in connection with motorway construction in the early 1970s.

 

[Rail Quest]

I found it hilarious when somebody suggested a service not stopping at Hale....can you imagine the screeching and howls of privileged protest that would follow...this from the same demographic who tried, and failed, to stop those nasty freight trains running at night a few years ago.

I'm sure they'd soon go quite once it becomes clear that such a move would not impact their persistent use of range rovers to travel literally anywhere

 

[Danfilm007]

Middlewich reopening has gone deathly quiet. Its also very very slow along there. The only place you could hide that train is in P1 at Crewe, and that is occupied between xx.38 and xx.46 along with xx.57 to xx.16 ignoring reoccupation margins. It would likely have to sit in a xx.19 to xx.35 gap to work, which automatically constrains it significantly.

AFAIK the next stage of business case for Middlewich reopening is sat on the DfT's desk for a decision.

 

[mwmbwls]

Of course the mid cheshire would be a different proposition if we were capable of building 3 miles of track into the airport.........

IIRC - that was the pre HST2 extension concept hence the Manchester Airport Station track layout. Again IIRC there is a soft route to extend Metrolink

 

[cle]

Hale is one of the biggest traffic generators - and I'm sure would be busier with a better schedule - so I couldn't see it happening.

A Crewe service sounds like a good move, even if just to Alty or Stockport. And covering off the Middlewich market - which might claim to want a direct Manchester - but that would likely be far quicker with a change. And Crewe obv brings other London, Liverpool, Midlands, Wales and Scotland connections to the whole route too.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Don't some of the evening services start at Stockport currently

The 1708 Stockport to Chester has been cancelled 27 times thus far in April and May. The unit subsequently forms the 1850 Helsby to Ellesmere Port (& back) which has been cancelled 31 times.