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Mid Hants Railway
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Oh really? Name one of comparable size that sells platform tickets on a gala day. They don't do it because freeloaders with cameras ( and I am sure Gearjammer isn;t one of them) - claim to buy tickets everywhere when in fact they just turn up with their cameras and loiter around without contributing a realistic amount to the cost of the event. I expect you would have been happy to buy a platform ticket for 50p - but would you have paid £10 for one? After all you get to see everything including all the engines and static exhibits and everything that people paying £15 could see - forsaking a ride to nowhere and back is not much of a sacrifice. Your story doesn't even sound that truthful - you turned up one day for a visit yet apparently you were also intending to turn up again the next day and of course pay the full whack! Yes of course you were. As for being allowed through the barriers at WInchester without a ticket just because you claim to be taking pictures - at best that is as the discretion of the barrier inspector - at worst it is not even true.
Domeyhead, I'm rather afraid it is true. It's written down in black and white on the guidelines for enthusiasts released by ATOC.
Still, nice to see the freeloading photographers argument aired. At least we know why you've come on here to make a fool of yourself and the railway you appear to be representing. Remind me, just how big a loss did that diesel gala make again?
Still, nice to see the freeloading photographers argument aired. At least we know why you've come on here to make a fool of yourself and the railway you appear to be representing. Remind me, just how big a loss did that diesel gala make again?
Further to my last, the only oher railway I've known charge an entrance fee on a gala day is the GCRN. They have a lovely transport museum at Ruddington though, and the entrance fee is hardly anything! Furthermore, the cafe inside is well worth a visit - and a friendly atmosphere means people part with their cash! Compare and contrast with your attitude Domeyhead and you'll see why things didn't go so well at the MHR.
GearJammer
Member
Yes thats right I WOULD, living near Fareham means the Mid-Hants rly is only a 30 minute drive away so its very easy to get to Ropley up the A32 so going two days in a row is no hardship!
You are either not very old or not very bright, or possibly both. And I don;t represent the MHR so why you should link me with them I don't know. You can stroll onto the Mid Hants and have lunch on the platform any time you want without paying so there is no difference with the GC(N) or any other railway you care to mention, but not on gala days. Galas are different for obvious reasons. Train travel on gala days is optional for many people but you pay the Gala entrance fee then you can do what you want. You are comparing chalk with cheese. As for ATOC guildelines they are irrelevent. They are guidelines as the title suggests, they are discretionary, they are not evenly applied, where they do exist they exist for the benefit of the paying public , not snappers, who are tolerated in some stations and not at others. They exist largely so that people seeing others off can accompany them onto the platform to help with bags etc. not to enable photographers to freeload. and finally the TOCs do not run all the stations. Paying your way by going into cafes or buying ice creams is irrelevant when the properly paying punters are doing all that as well. You probably don't have much commercial nous but railways are not rich, and if snapping freeloaders can pay 10p to enjoy a gala then there won't be another gala next year will there.
GearJammer
Member
They were'nt charging a 'Gala entrance fee' they said i had to buy a 'ticket to travel'
Maybe, maybe not, but if the Mid-Hants HAD charged me 10p for a platform ticket/yard pass they would have made 10p more than they did do!
Au contraire, it's all about portraying a friendly image. Odd how other railways manage to run a gala and cope with the freeloading photographers without resorting to barriering their stations and creating a feeling of unwelcomeness, isn't it?
Let's face facts - if anyone is lacking in commercial nous, it's somebody who thinks you can charge a whacking great entrance fee to merely walk around an old station and an engine shed! Charge somebody a couple of quid like the GCRN do on the other hand and you might just get somewhere!
Further evidence of it actually being your good self rather than me who is not very bright is in your continued attempts to tell us that people can't photograph at barriered stations on the mailine despite the many posts telling you that any enthusiast can. Even at stations managed by NR. Now, can I offer you a ladder to help you climb out of the whole you've dug for yourself, or do I need to pass you a shovel so you can carry on digging?
Let's face facts - if anyone is lacking in commercial nous, it's somebody who thinks you can charge a whacking great entrance fee to merely walk around an old station and an engine shed! Charge somebody a couple of quid like the GCRN do on the other hand and you might just get somewhere!
Further evidence of it actually being your good self rather than me who is not very bright is in your continued attempts to tell us that people can't photograph at barriered stations on the mailine despite the many posts telling you that any enthusiast can. Even at stations managed by NR. Now, can I offer you a ladder to help you climb out of the whole you've dug for yourself, or do I need to pass you a shovel so you can carry on digging?
It's usually when people decide to try and move the argument to a different arena that you know you have them beat. As I have said, snappers may be tolerated at some stations at the discretion of staff but ATOC is a trade body not a policy unit though you will not understand the difference otherwise you would not have quoted them. NR stations are irrelevant as we were supposed to be talking about the commercial logic of trying to make money at special events. And it is commercial logic. If people can pay 10p to gain entrance to a gala (where the journey is just an incidental part of the day) then the day as a whole will lose money because freeloaders such as yourself will pay 10p and the entire event will fail. Your short sighted lack of commercial sense and nous is breathtaking, but I confess I do get some pleasure in using you as a punchbag. Even Gearjammer demonstrates his inability to think beyond his own personal sitation by blithely assuming that if he is allowed to pay 10p then the railway will be 10p richer at the end as a result. Keep thinking, and thinking, and then ask yourself whether any of the other people taking advantage of the 10p loophole would have otherwise paid the full whack. You obviously care nothing for the preservation movement so long as you get your pics for free - I am starting to wonder if you are that celebrated dope who was so wrapped up in his shot he almost got knocked down by the train coming the other way. He summed up the snappers in many ways. I like the fact that you can't distinguish between the quality of what is on offer at different events and care little for whether they will be around next year or not. You are revealing your selfish attitide towards railway preservation and its future, so long as you get your cheap snaps that's all that matters.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Anyway, back on topic, Jon, I have sent your details to someone involved in the loco groups. You should be getting a contact from them soon.
"sells platform tickets to freeloaders"? Bit of a contradiction isn't it? I think you are missing the point. I've been to diesel galas at numerous railways, and found the mid Hants to be the most anti diesel and unfreindly one of the lot. It's all very well using photographers as the scapegoats to excuse the railways lack of financial acumen, but I find it most contradictory that the Mid Hants were running 'demonstration freight trains' during that last gala (err, for whose benefit? The people who had paid for all day rovers for riding on trains?) Meanwhile the timetable was falling into a farce worthy of an Ealing comedy......
Bar policing a 2 mile exclusion zone around your beloved railway, you have to appreciate there's nothing you can do about photographers. Most other railways manage it - perhaps the Mid Hants can change a habit of a lifetime and actually sort it out and organize it properly. In the meantime, due to the unfriendly welcome, open hostility, poor planning, and them not having a clue as to what diesel cranks want, I'll not be returning for any event.
Ah yes, who was it who moved the topic onto mainline railways again? Would that have been yourself? I see you chose the shovel option then!
Just a couple of further points - I don't freeload at any gala. I spend half my day on the train and half on the lineside, meaning I buy a rover. At the notorious loss-making MHR gala, I attended on the Friday and the Sunday so that was two rovers that were bought by me. At Swanage I had a 3 day rover, but spent much of Friday and Sunday on the lineside. I always put money into the pres movement whether I get any snaps or whether I don't.
It wasn't me who mentioned 10p as an entrance fee.
Now, if you'd like another complete and utter withering, please feel free to come back with yet more irrelevant tripe. Alternatively, grow a pair, admit you sound like a complete treat and apologise for thinking you know the first thing about me.
FUnny that, because in my reply to Gearjammer you jumped in with
"So you approve of Prison Guards on the front of the station then? Maybe the ELR should charge people to get onto the station at Bury on a Sunday afternoon and leave the Trackside pub empty for the afternoon? "
You invited yourself to the party because you still have a chip on your shoulder simply for being asked to show your ticket by a woman volunteer? Sounds like you needn't bother to grow a pair, as they'd be unemployed except in moments of solitary contemplation.
"So you approve of Prison Guards on the front of the station then? Maybe the ELR should charge people to get onto the station at Bury on a Sunday afternoon and leave the Trackside pub empty for the afternoon? "
You invited yourself to the party because you still have a chip on your shoulder simply for being asked to show your ticket by a woman volunteer? Sounds like you needn't bother to grow a pair, as they'd be unemployed except in moments of solitary contemplation.
Not at all. It's the unfriendly way in which it was done that was the issue. You'll note that there are many people saying the same thing of course, both on here now and on wnxx at the time. That would suggest that it is more than some imaginary chip on my shoulder now wouldn't it?
Face facts - attempts to defend the indefensible are always doomed to failure. Charging the small handful of people who you accuse of freeloading would not have made much of a dent in the 4-figure loss that the diesel gala made. As I recall it, that weekend was blessed with lovely weather too so there really should be no excuses!
GearJammer
Member
No offence Ferret but i'd give up mate, talking to him is like talking to a brick wall, my simple fact was this, if they had charged me 10p, 50p, £2.50, in fact anything up to i reckon a fiver being reasonable, i would have paid it to gain entry, after that i would no doubt have spent money in the shops etc (if for nothing else food and drink), but they did'nt, they wanted me to buy a rover, so i left, as result i spent nothing on that occasion.
Although it has been explained previously, for some reason you are clearly not up to the job of analysing the interpreting the data, so I'll itemise the issues. If you want you can play at managing a large virtual event and see how quickly with your ideas it degenarates into loss making chaos.
1) A large gala is a multi site event, linked by the trains. It is not a series of isolated independent events, it is one distributed event. Without the dimension of mobility and transport visitor numbers will bunch up at the main location(s), and less people can enjoy the overall experience, they will in consequence stay for less time and they will therefore spend less money on the consumable extras.
2) Offering - or even encouraging - people to buy a heavily discounted "one location only" ticket has a number of tactical issues:
a) it may increase numbers but it also decreases revenue, and the more popular a discounted ticket is, the more people are needed to achieve break even. The more people present, the more uncomfortable and less satisfying it is for those who do attend.
b)If there is one "special visiting attraction" (eg Tornado, etc) any cheap "platform ticket" giving access to one part of the site only will naturally encourage people to visit the special attraction only, thus denying the railway and its exhibitors the chance to promote other attractions up and down the line particularly to those who are not informed enthusiasts. Moreover caterers, shops and exhibitors will all want to cluster close to the special attraction which then has the negative effect of drawing everything back to the centre when the intention is to maximise visitor potential by distributing the event, thus losing overall capacity and duration of stay.
c) the trains are a fixed cost, and without a contribution from every visitor they do not make commercial sense. Yet pradoxically even the platform ticket holder wants to see trains in action. THe Platform ticket idea effectively takes away the ride cost contribution yet the ticket buyer still expects to observe an extended running schedule but from a ficed location rather than being on the train itself.
d) Large events rely on volunteer support and volunteer goodwill. Creating a complex system of travel and non travel tickets tariffs and options makes a hard job impossible, and requires volunteers to become skilled at diffusing inevitable conflicts over the abuse of ticket privileges. Tickets wlll be abused whether intentionally or not, and ticket inspectors on trains cannot check every ticket on every train between every station.
e) A multiple tariff ticket system creates more scope for conflict on a day when conflict is to be avoided. Having one simple overall entry ticket simplifies the volunteer task to an optimal minimum.
f) When facilities do become crowded should a full fare paying family ticket holder be incovenienced by the queues of casual platform ticket holders enjoying the infrastructure but paying a lesser contribution for it?
g) "Platform ticket" tariffs are also going to be used by those who would otherwise have paid full fares and see them as a "bargain" - thus they do not simply cater for an additional extra population of visitors they also encroach into the base visitor population as well, and in doing so undermine the cost modelling of the event as a whole.
g) the production and administration of diferentially priced tickets and tariffs is complex and costly, and difficult to control and plan. When any gala reaches the stage where numbers are going to run into the high thousands they will inevtiably simplify and standardise in order to optimise both enjoymnt and income from the visitor numbers. SMall events and minor galas do not face the same risks and cost pressures and are often at a different level of maturity. WHen they become larger they too will standardise ticket offerings.
You may disagree with this but ask yourself why virtually every large attraction in the country including major railway galas offer a "one price sees all" ticket - and where the only variable attracting any sort of discount is the time of visit and not the scope of visit as you continue to advocate?
1) A large gala is a multi site event, linked by the trains. It is not a series of isolated independent events, it is one distributed event. Without the dimension of mobility and transport visitor numbers will bunch up at the main location(s), and less people can enjoy the overall experience, they will in consequence stay for less time and they will therefore spend less money on the consumable extras.
2) Offering - or even encouraging - people to buy a heavily discounted "one location only" ticket has a number of tactical issues:
a) it may increase numbers but it also decreases revenue, and the more popular a discounted ticket is, the more people are needed to achieve break even. The more people present, the more uncomfortable and less satisfying it is for those who do attend.
b)If there is one "special visiting attraction" (eg Tornado, etc) any cheap "platform ticket" giving access to one part of the site only will naturally encourage people to visit the special attraction only, thus denying the railway and its exhibitors the chance to promote other attractions up and down the line particularly to those who are not informed enthusiasts. Moreover caterers, shops and exhibitors will all want to cluster close to the special attraction which then has the negative effect of drawing everything back to the centre when the intention is to maximise visitor potential by distributing the event, thus losing overall capacity and duration of stay.
c) the trains are a fixed cost, and without a contribution from every visitor they do not make commercial sense. Yet pradoxically even the platform ticket holder wants to see trains in action. THe Platform ticket idea effectively takes away the ride cost contribution yet the ticket buyer still expects to observe an extended running schedule but from a ficed location rather than being on the train itself.
d) Large events rely on volunteer support and volunteer goodwill. Creating a complex system of travel and non travel tickets tariffs and options makes a hard job impossible, and requires volunteers to become skilled at diffusing inevitable conflicts over the abuse of ticket privileges. Tickets wlll be abused whether intentionally or not, and ticket inspectors on trains cannot check every ticket on every train between every station.
e) A multiple tariff ticket system creates more scope for conflict on a day when conflict is to be avoided. Having one simple overall entry ticket simplifies the volunteer task to an optimal minimum.
f) When facilities do become crowded should a full fare paying family ticket holder be incovenienced by the queues of casual platform ticket holders enjoying the infrastructure but paying a lesser contribution for it?
g) "Platform ticket" tariffs are also going to be used by those who would otherwise have paid full fares and see them as a "bargain" - thus they do not simply cater for an additional extra population of visitors they also encroach into the base visitor population as well, and in doing so undermine the cost modelling of the event as a whole.
g) the production and administration of diferentially priced tickets and tariffs is complex and costly, and difficult to control and plan. When any gala reaches the stage where numbers are going to run into the high thousands they will inevtiably simplify and standardise in order to optimise both enjoymnt and income from the visitor numbers. SMall events and minor galas do not face the same risks and cost pressures and are often at a different level of maturity. WHen they become larger they too will standardise ticket offerings.
You may disagree with this but ask yourself why virtually every large attraction in the country including major railway galas offer a "one price sees all" ticket - and where the only variable attracting any sort of discount is the time of visit and not the scope of visit as you continue to advocate?
AlexS
Established Member
Hmm. Too much getting het up I feel.
At the GCR we charge £5 for a platform ticket for galas for site entry which can then be used as a voucher against travel if desired.
We throw linesiders trespassing off without mercy (and have stewards patrolling where we can) - we charge for our passes so it would be unreasonable to let people go for free - but if you're behind the boundary fence then you'll get no hassle (although at the busier photo points you can expect someone to wave a bucket at you for donations!).
It all seems to be a happy medium. Everyone gets what the want - GCR gets some money out of everyone (which is after all the name of the game, anyone who doesn't want to pay is turned away (politely)), photographers get their pictures if they don't want to travel.
At the GCR we charge £5 for a platform ticket for galas for site entry which can then be used as a voucher against travel if desired.
We throw linesiders trespassing off without mercy (and have stewards patrolling where we can) - we charge for our passes so it would be unreasonable to let people go for free - but if you're behind the boundary fence then you'll get no hassle (although at the busier photo points you can expect someone to wave a bucket at you for donations!).
It all seems to be a happy medium. Everyone gets what the want - GCR gets some money out of everyone (which is after all the name of the game, anyone who doesn't want to pay is turned away (politely)), photographers get their pictures if they don't want to travel.
Domeyhead, you are indeed a beast. You clearly think you have some kind of 'business brain' yet ignore all that's been said here. Many other railways run very successful diesel galas, without the gestapo like policing of the Mad Hants and make healthy profits. It's all very well to blame the photographers for the Mad Hants financial losses at the last half baked idea of a gala, but the fact is they got it wrong. Big time.
Remember this, its clear that whilst you may or may not represent the railway in question, you are just strengthening our beliefs that the Mad Hants is an unfriendly and anti diesel enthusiast orientated steam railway which is as uninterested in providing a value for money venue for them, as it is interested in taking their money.
Their last gala was a complete shambles, and deservedly so. Now that Swanage is established as THE event on the south coast, the Mad Hants isn't missed and your grumpy, rude fossils are welcome to continue on your self destructive ways.
Remember this, its clear that whilst you may or may not represent the railway in question, you are just strengthening our beliefs that the Mad Hants is an unfriendly and anti diesel enthusiast orientated steam railway which is as uninterested in providing a value for money venue for them, as it is interested in taking their money.
Their last gala was a complete shambles, and deservedly so. Now that Swanage is established as THE event on the south coast, the Mad Hants isn't missed and your grumpy, rude fossils are welcome to continue on your self destructive ways.
Domehead - that's piffle and gibber. Why do the Lancs not feel the need to charge an 'entrance fee' at every station on the line during galas. Same for Swanage, Gloucester and Warks, Severn Valley, North Yorks Moors? These guys all run very successful galas - compare and contrast with the Mid Hants which managed to run a total failure, despite all of your pontification on why they were justified. I'd venture to say that it's a good job they aren't in the business of organising booze ups in breweries as they'd probably be rubbish at that too!
What are you talking about? THe Swanage Railway diesel gala sells Rover tickets - exactly as I explained - and there is no mention of "access only" tickets to small parts of the gala only. THe reasons I gave above are all for obvious commercial considerations and the overrideing need to not to burden complexity on the day onto staff who may not be able to cope? Can you imagine the problems and costs of having to equip all guards and ticket collectors with online credit card processing to cope with the inevitable passnegers who decide to take a ride having purchased "entrance only" tickets? I am a member of the Swanage and Bluebell Railways (yes you got that wrong didn't you) and I can tell you that the same considerations apply at major galas. Even the ELR only publicises rover tickets for its diesel gala - there is nothing about selling tickets to access one location only.
You start from the selfish standpoint of simply wanting to be able to take your piccies on the cheap - not from the difficulties of a preserved railway trying to run a successful and profitable event with a largely volunteer staff. You can keep coming back for another slap if that's what you like but your posts only reveal the basic selfishness of your outlook. You pay for a rover and you can do and go where you want.
I went to the Mid Hants diesel gala two years ago as a spectator with my small children (an issue that most of the diesel enthusiasts there seem unlikely to ever encounter) and at one stage the foul language and behaviour of one group who seemed to think it ok to eff and blind in front of small children was such that one of them nearly got more than just a slap from me. I now realise from my encounter here that this selfish and boorish attitude is prevalent among men who mostly still live with their mothers so I ought to make allowances and forgive you.
curly42
Member
- Joined
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- 747
Domeyhead - please please please keep posting.
I haven't laughed so much for so long.
I haven't laughed so much for so long.
Domeyhead - please please please keep posting.
I haven't laughed so much for so long.
He's great isn't he! I just love the way he keeps banging on about financial acumen when referring to a railway that has so very little. I also chuckled when he generalized about grown men with no kids that live at home with mother. Talk about taking a swing and alienating those of us with kids that WON'T be going to any more Thomas events, let alone anywhere near that nasty little railway.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
There's no need to be so rude to those of us who do do a good job on that so called "nasty little railway". Yes, that would be why the steam galas are wildly successful...
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