Midland Main Line project in jeopardy?

[SpacePhoenix]

I thought class 800 could be made electric only as part of the spec

The class 801 is the electric only version of the class 800. Would a class 800 be able to get from one end of the MML to the other on a single tank?

 

[petersi]

Bedford Sheffield is 108 miles
Edinburgh Inverness is 174

 

[47802]

If electrification is put back then I imagine the comparatively small fleet of Midland HST's will be made 2020 compliant. I cannot see it being perm axed just postponed, unlike the South West where it looks likely that even if you kept the HST's at some point you would still need to replace them with a Diesel or Bi-mode Diesel. Obviously the alternative would be to go for some Bi-Modes such as AT-300's as proposed for the South West

 

[38Cto15E]

I am not sure if it makes any difference but the Secretary of State for Transport represents the Derbyshire Dales.

 

[Class 170101]

The Chancellor represents Tatton - a North West constituency.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I thought class 800 could be made electric only as part of the spec

Yes, but that means removing the diesel engines after only a few years. Moving the diesel Class 800s to lines which need bi-mode and replacing them with electric-only Class 801s wouldn't be that complicated.

 

[Olaf]

The MML Electrification was from the out-set the project too far.

There is still a bit more fall-out from the electrification projects to come to light so it is too early to see in what timeframe, form and scope the project might be revived. Whatever, now that the election is out of the way it is back to analysis of the numbers to determine what the priorities are.

 

[ExRes]

The MML Electrification was from the out-set the project too far.

There is still a bit more fall-out from the electrification projects to come to light so it is too early to see in what timeframe, form and scope the project might be revived. Whatever, now that the election is out of the way it is back to analysis of the numbers to determine what the priorities are.

Before I pop down the florists to buy a wreath, other than a report in one newspaper, which people on here normally treat with contempt, is there the slightest bit of proof at this stage that the MML electrification is to be delayed in any way whatsoever ?

 

[richieb1971]

There has been activity north of Bedford in recent weeks. I will pop down there tomorrow and see what the situation is.

 

[Taunton]

It's normally easy to spot a project that is running into trouble (GW electrification) by the way the project team and their supporters start to micro-divide the various reporting points so they have at least something to say. It's even got into various threads here.

For example, 50 years ago it was just number of miles completed. More recently it was getting reduced to masts erected, miles wired, etc, but now I notice the GW project getting reported as numbers of mast holes drilled, piles installed, etc, even before there is any sign of things above ground. I suppose the next stage will be to start reporting the number of cubic metres of concrete ordered from Hanson as "progress" ....

 

[yorksrob]

The MML Electrification was from the out-set the project too far.

There is still a bit more fall-out from the electrification projects to come to light so it is too early to see in what timeframe, form and scope the project might be revived. Whatever, now that the election is out of the way it is back to analysis of the numbers to determine what the priorities are.

I would have thought the MML project was one of the better ones. It is a mainline, a reasonable length is already electrified and it has better connectivity in terms of surrounding electrified areas than the Great Western.

Infact, the only way it seems to fall down is against non InterCity type schemes, simply because we already have an inbuilt shortage of local diesel stock, whereas we are likely to have a surfeit of InterCity type diesel stock even when the 125's go.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Considering it's the only project with a BCR of infinity, it'll be the last one they cut.

 

[LTJ87]

If this is true, it's absolutely outrageous.

Over the past 15 years, the MML has had literally peanuts spent on it compared to the WCML and ECML.

 

[snowball]

Considering it's the only project with a BCR of infinity, it'll be the last one they cut.

But do the cost estimates on which that was based still hold up?

 

[yorksrob]

But do the cost estimates on which that was based still hold up?

To be fair, if they've gone up, they're likely to have for all the other electrification projects. Unless there's something to do with the geography of the MML that makes it more susceptible to increased costs than other lines.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Isn't part of the point of the rollout of ETCS that it would save money in the long term? If so, cancelling or delaying it might look good in the short term, but in the long term it would be a very bad thing. Indeed, that applies to most rail investment, most particularly electrification.

Since when have British politicians looked long term?

I am not sure if it makes any difference but the Secretary of State for Transport represents the Derbyshire Dales.

It does make a difference. It will not get cancelled and I would bet a lot of money on it. I am sure the timescale will be lengthened. Kettering-Corby reached by 2018 - starting towards Derby 2019 - oh and look another general election 2020 - lets start towards Sheffield. Way too much political capital - it will not get cancelled. Anyone willing to bet a 100 quid?

Before I pop down the florists to buy a wreath, other than a report in one newspaper, which people on here normally treat with contempt, is there the slightest bit of proof at this stage that the MML electrification is to be delayed in any way whatsoever ?

NO

There has been activity north of Bedford in recent weeks. I will pop down there tomorrow and see what the situation is.

Thanks- sanity

Considering it's the only project with a BCR of infinity, it'll be the last one they cut.

I would agree - not going to be cut but the timetables lengthened so the money spent spread but the politicians can say - In progress.

If this is true, it's absolutely outrageous.

I totally agree

Over the past 15 years, the MML has had literally peanuts spent on it compared to the WCML and ECML.

EXACTLY

 

[snowball]

I think that if the MML and TP are in danger, it's more because of the stage they're up to than because they're worse value for money than NW or GW. I would expect Corby to go ahead at minimum.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that if the MML and TP are in danger, it's more because of the stage they're up to than because they're worse value for money than NW or GW. I would expect Corby to go ahead at minimum.

Indeed. 'last in, first out' seems to be a very real phenomenon in many cases.

 

[Class 170101]

In some respects it should be the wiring west of Reading that should be in jeopardy and shouldn't have been started in the first place, with wiring MML, and Transpennine connecting up MML, ECML and WCML electrically. However now that its started I would suggest wiring the Transpennine between Stalybridge and York is now the most at risk scheme, never mind the completed bridge works.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

In some respects it should be the wiring west of Reading that should be in jeopardy and shouldn't have been started in the first place, with wiring MML, and Transpennine connecting up MML, ECML and WCML electrically. However now that its started I would suggest wiring the Transpennine between Stalybridge and York is now the most at risk scheme, never mind the completed bridge works.

Transpennine wiring has been suspended indefinitely, but not yet cancelled. To me it looks like the government is planning to announce a major upgrade of the main Transpennine route in the CP6 HLOS, including as yet to be determined track and signalling upgrades, station capacity enhancements and electrification all in one package for completion by the end of CP6 in 2024/25, which is beyond the end of the next TPE franchise in 2023 (TBA later this year).

With Transpennine wiring suspended for the foreseeable it should hopefully allow NR to focus resources on other schemes like MML and GW electrification and get them back on track (no pun intended).

Only downside is that more schemes that are delayed from CP5 into CP6 then the less wiring that can be undertaken in CP6 so plans like the Northern Sparks report look more and more fanciful.

 

[muddythefish]

So, rail electrification schemes in danger yet £15bn of road building will go ahead.

Nothing changes.

 

[Haydn1971]

Anyone know how many units are required to run each part of TPE ? Obviously the 350's enabled some 185's to be free'd up, the 4x 156's from Northern enable a few more. Could we see TP South being shunted back to 158's or dare I suggest a loco hauled solution (whispers 442) to free some more 185's up for the TP North route - running all services as 6 carriage 185's ?

 

[WatcherZero]

I believe 170's could be scrounged up from their various operators over the next few years to reinforce South TPE, Scotrail for instance will be releasing 29.

 

[Haydn1971]

Ah, perfect for the North - scrounged 170's

 

[RichmondCommu]

The MML Electrification was from the out-set the project too far.

On what basis? There are only three tunnels of any significant length and one short tunnel built on a curve with clearance issues (Toadmoor Tunnel). In the case of the latter as far as I know the design work has been done to enable a conductor rail to be installed in the tunnel. Other than that the track may have to be lowered from north of Milford tunnel to the northern end of Belper due to the many listed bridges but even then there is an acceptance that at least one bridge might have to be demolished.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But do the cost estimates on which that was based still hold up?

As far as I know the only increase in costs is due to the need to upgrade the existing electrification infrastructure between Bedford and St Pancras to allow 125 mph running.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So, rail electrification schemes in danger yet £15bn of road building will go ahead. Nothing changes.

That is why if it is postponed too far I will be really ****ed off.

Anyone know how many units are required to run each part of TPE ? Obviously the 350's enabled some 185's to be free'd up, the 4x 156's from Northern enable a few more. Could we see TP South being shunted back to 158's or dare I suggest a loco hauled solution (whispers 442) to free some more 185's up for the TP North route - running all services as 6 carriage 185's ?

N'owt wrong with loco hauled stock. It was heaven to me in the 70s and 80s. I loved it when Crewe-Cardif went 33/37 hauled in the 1980s rather than crappy Cravens DMUs

Ah, perfect for the North - scrounged 170's

Yes - nowt changes

 

[WatcherZero]

Ah, perfect for the North - scrounged 170's

I just think of them as a generation beyond Sprinters (I know technically they are 2 generations after the Networkers as well), they aren't brand new but they are perfectly suitable.

 

[carriageline]

Can't see Mark Carne going back on his big plan, he wants as much ETCS coverage as soon as possible.

The Thameslink ETCS is very much on schedule, and as far as I'm aware the ECML is still happening. TMS has very, very quietly been stopped though. Mr Carne even said so in the FAQ currently on connect, admitting it's too expensive and won't give us enough benefit at this current time. Romford and Wales as the trial sites will still get it (although we've been told we will get it on the Thameslink workstations)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How many extra trains an hour can run on a route that is fully equipped with ETCS?

 

[Bald Rick]

How many extra trains an hour can run on a route that is fully equipped with ETCS?

Zero.