Midland Mainline and Central Trains 170 introduction

[Bletchleyite]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stadler-flirt-best-modern-train.288015/page-2#post-7336985

Midland Mainline - the TOC, not the route - didn't operate non-IC services, so naturally it's 170's weren't used on non-IC services - which is what @Dr Hoo was saying.

And it's false. The very first deployment of the MML 170s in passenger service was for a short period on the Matlock branch, presumably operated on MML's behalf by CT (they were part of the same group anyway). I rode one in the first couple of weeks. I remember it having a nice new train smell but the legroom being inhumanly bad (unlike the CT units which have a lower density layout). It also seemed to flex a bit in the middle as it bounced over the rail joints.

This was arguably a form of testing, but it was done in passenger service to show off the new units!

The CT units also operated their first services on the branch.

Sadly there don't seem to be any photos of this deployment online, but it was in the analogue era and not for a very long period.

I half seem to recall there were also for a bit occasional through Matlock to London services using said 170s but these weren't right at the start?

 

[edwin_m]

I believe they sneaked the first one into service in the last few days of 1997 (not sure of year?). This was probably to meet the deadline for first in class to be in service, otherwise the whole fleet would be caught by the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations which placed a number of very prescriptive requirements which probably weren't known when the trains were designed. The same rules probably explain why the later Central Trains build had an unnecessary and unenforced "Use by train staff only" sticker on the door close buttons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it might have been 1998 as I'm almost certain I travelled there from Manchester having moved there for uni rather than from Ormskirk, and I only moved there in the second semester so February onwards. However I did go there twice, once to ride the MML units and once to ride the CT ones which also did their first service on the branch, so I might be confusing the two.

 

[43096]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stadler-flirt-best-modern-train.288015/page-2#post-7336985



And it's false. The very first deployment of the MML 170s in passenger service was for a short period on the Matlock branch, presumably operated on MML's behalf by CT (they were part of the same group anyway).

It’s not false. The train was operated by Central, just using a MML unit. It’s no different to any other hire between TOCs.

 

[edwin_m]

The one I saw in service in 1997 (if that was the correct year) was actually at St Pancras. The enhanced timetable didn't start until some months later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wiki claims it to be later:

British Rail Class 170 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Midland Mainline​

A pair of Midland Mainline Class 170/1s at Derby in September 2003

Midland Mainline (MML) was the first operator to order Turbostars, the first being delivered in November 1998 and entering service in May 1999.[28] The Class 170/1 units were built immediately after the Class 168/0 units were built for Chiltern Railways. MML ordered a fleet of 17 two-car Class 170 units, although the first ten were subsequently made up of three cars each instead. These were numbered 170101–117. The units were introduced on stopping services from London St Pancras to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham. They were also used on summer Saturday services from London to York, which later became a year-round service with summer extension to Scarborough. Class 170s were also used on direct services between London St Pancras and Matlock, these services ended upon the replacement of the Class 170s with new Class 222 Meridian units due to weight restrictions on the Derwent Valley line to Matlock.

It doesn't however mention the initial Matlock introduction which might have been a bit earlier. It also confirms that through Matlock-London services did operate.

 

[hexagon789]

Contains some details of MM 170 introduction (note 170101 itself was completed in September 1998, launched to the press on 9th October and made it to St Pancras for the first time on test on the 16th November):

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. This does confirm the use of MML units under Central on the Matlock services, though does leave open the possibility that the first one actually was at St Pancras just to tick a box.

Give or take the first one I recall Adtranz (as they were then) using the Matlock branch for "shakedown" purposes - perhaps each unit did a bit there before going onto the mainline?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Looking back at Modern Railways for late 1998 and 1999, the first regular scheduled public diagram (a peak return trip to St Pancras from Derby) was from 15 March 1999.

A ‘static’ launch was done at Derby on 3 November 1998. I understood at the time that there was one ‘ad hoc’ public trip before the end of 1998 to achieve some sort of compliance deadline.

I haven’t managed to turn up any contemporary references or pictures for a Matlock service. A batch of Class 170s for Anglia and a batch for Central were very much part of the early build programme, even before all Midland Mainline vehicles were complete.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I haven’t managed to turn up any contemporary references or pictures for a Matlock service. A batch of Class 170s for Anglia and a batch for Central were very much part of the early build programme, even before all Midland Mainline vehicles were complete.

The article in post 7 refers to the use on the Matlock branch but doesn't confirm whether this was before or after the first use to St Pancras. But it was definitely a MML 2-car unit and it was definitely very early on.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stadler-flirt-best-modern-train.288015/page-2#post-7336985



And it's false. The very first deployment of the MML 170s in passenger service was for a short period on the Matlock branch, presumably operated on MML's behalf by CT (they were part of the same group anyway). I rode one in the first couple of weeks. I remember it having a nice new train smell but the legroom being inhumanly bad (unlike the CT units which have a lower density layout). It also seemed to flex a bit in the middle as it bounced over the rail joints.

This was arguably a form of testing, but it was done in passenger service to show off the new units!

The CT units also operated their first services on the branch.

Sadly there don't seem to be any photos of this deployment online, but it was in the analogue era and not for a very long period.

I half seem to recall there were also for a bit occasional through Matlock to London services using said 170s but these weren't right at the start?

Yes there was, there’s also a YouTube video showing one passing through Stockport in the Project Rio days.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Just to make life even more complicated, there were a couple of ‘demonstrator’ two-car units in neutral/ unbranded liveries for either the manufacturer’s or leasing company’s purposes. Both of these seemed to turn up in Midland Mainline rakes in the early days (but they may well have worked with Central Trains too).

Later on these were ‘absorbed’ and reconfigured into TOC fleets.

 

[Helvellyn]

Just to make life even more complicated, there were a couple of ‘demonstrator’ two-car units in neutral/ unbranded liveries for either the manufacturer’s or leasing company’s purposes. Both of these seemed to turn up in Midland Mainline rakes in the early days (but they may well have worked with Central Trains too).

Later on these were ‘absorbed’ and reconfigured into TOC fleets.

170399 was a two-car spot hire unit. Think it was built after 170301-308 for South West Trains, so had the same interior finish.

170397/398 were then built as three-car spot hire units. Can't remember what batch they followed off the production line.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Great stuff, @Helvellyn . Thanks.

Only goes to confirm that was a lot going on in the early Class 170/Turbostar days.

 

[edwin_m]

A ‘static’ launch was done at Derby on 3 November 1998. I understood at the time that there was one ‘ad hoc’ public trip before the end of 1998 to achieve some sort of compliance deadline.

That must be what I posted about earlier, but I was out by one year.

 

[Sprinter107]

170399 was a two-car spot hire unit. Think it was built after 170301-308 for South West Trains, so had the same interior finish.

170397/398 were then built as three-car spot hire units. Can't remember what batch they followed off the production line.

397 ran as 2 car set when first out. I travelled from St Pancras to Kettering on it, around September 2002.

 

[Iddybiddy05]

Porterbrook placed an order with bombardier on spec for at least 6 170s, 397/98/99 found homes, with central trains to start with in a lovely white with purple doors scheme. 399 later became the awful central trains wrap set with a few different liveries which weathered very badly.

Hull trains took the other four sets from new out of the spec batch.

The 170301-308 sets where used to test the midland mainline MS (centre) vehicles before they where delivered to MML.

 

[Sprinter107]

Porterbrook placed an order with bombardier on spec for at least 6 170s, 397/98/99 found homes, with central trains to start with in a lovely white with purple doors scheme. 399 later became the awful central trains wrap set with a few different liveries which weathered very badly.

Hull trains took the other four sets from new out of the spec batch.

The 170301-308 sets where used to test the midland mainline MS (centre) vehicles before they where delivered to

399 worked the Cross London service that ran from various points on the Great Eastern to Basingstoke before becoming a Tyseley unit for Central. It was branded for that service.

 

[317362]

Re post 9 and public to London 15/3/99, this is correct and yes I was on it (to Leicester anyway).

 

[MCR247]

Just to make life even more complicated, there were a couple of ‘demonstrator’ two-car units in neutral/ unbranded liveries for either the manufacturer’s or leasing company’s purposes. Both of these seemed to turn up in Midland Mainline rakes in the early days (but they may well have worked with Central Trains too).

Later on these were ‘absorbed’ and reconfigured into TOC fleets.

Porterbrook placed an order with bombardier on spec for at least 6 170s, 397/98/99 found homes, with central trains to start with in a lovely white with purple doors scheme. 399 later became the awful central trains wrap set with a few different liveries which weathered very badly.

Hull trains took the other four sets from new out of the spec batch.

The 170301-308 sets where used to test the midland mainline MS (centre) vehicles before they where delivered to MML.

For completeness I feel the need to tell the story of 170 392, the Class 171 that (for a long time) never was! South West Trains wanted an extra Class 170 to operate the Chandlers Ford services, so they approached Porterbrook. They must’ve needed it asap and the quickest and cheapest way to do it was to tag it onto the order of Southern 170/7s and it was delivered to Selhurst with Southern interior and exterior as 170 727. It then made a one-way journey to Ashford Chart Leacon and some time later a South West Trains liveried 170392 came back in its place! When SWT swapped their 170s for 158s, 392 then went off to Southern and became 171 730

I may have misremembered/dramatised some bits but it’s still based on a true story

 

[danielnez1]

One of the demo units was the "Turbostar Traveller" I believe it was 2 cars and had a basic interior with no overhead luggage racks and seemingly retro orange panelling in the door vestibules. I think AdTranz billed it as a lower cost version of a 170 as a possible Pacer and Sprinter replacement (wishful thinking). I’m not sure what number it was allocated when it was converted to a more standard spec for general use. Edit, more info on the unit here: https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/railtex-2000-review/25108.article

 

[sprinterguy]

One of the demo units was the "Turbostar Traveller" I believe it was 2 cars and had a basic interior with no overhead luggage racks and seemingly retro orange panelling in the door vestibules. I think AdTranz billed it as a lower cost version of a 170 as a possible Pacer and Sprinter replacement (wishful thinking). I’m not sure what number it was allocated when it was converted to a more standard spec for general use. Edit, more info on the unit here: https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/railtex-2000-review/25108.article

I think that became 170399 - On display in 'Traveller' form in January 2001, and on the test track at Litchurch Lane as 170399 two months later in March.

As I recall, the 'Traveller' concept was designed as a lighter weight variant through the use of lighter bogies and better acceleration through downgrading to a 75mph maximum. Ultimately the concept was an early forerunner to the class 172, which achieved improvements in acceleration via a different gearbox arrangement and used inside frame bogies.

 

[danielnez1]

I think that became 170399 - On display in 'Traveller' form in January 2001, and on the test track at Litchurch Lane as 170399 two months later in March.

As I recall, the 'Traveller' concept was designed as a lighter weight variant through the use of inside frame bogies and better acceleration through downgrading to a 75mph maximum. Ultimately the concept was an early forerunner to the class 172, which achieved improvements in acceleration via a different gearbox arrangement.

Thanks (and there probably should be a Turbostar history thread given how in their early days there were loads of variants and interior fitouts, plus the traveller). Towards the end of the original MML and Central Trains franchises, I remember getting a ex MML 170 from Peterborough to Norwich in 2006 - I always made a point of using the declassified first class section even when I had a seat reservation in Standard. Am I right in thinking that the 222s were rather quickly ordered when it was deemed that the MML 170s were quickly overcrowded soon after introduction?

 

[sprinterguy]

Porterbrook placed an order with bombardier on spec for at least 6 170s, 397/98/99 found homes, with central trains to start with in a lovely white with purple doors scheme. 399 later became the awful central trains wrap set with a few different liveries which weathered very badly.

Hull trains took the other four sets from new out of the spec batch.

Is that definitely right with regard the Hull Trains units? There was an eighteen month gap between 170397/8 and the Hull Trains sets being delivered - The latter just predated the Southern 171/8s, which were quite a late build along with further Scotrail batches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2025 ==

Thanks (and there probably should be a Turbostar history thread given how in their early days there were loads of variants and interior fitouts, plus the traveller). Towards the end of the original MML and Central Trains franchises, I remember getting a ex MML 170 from Peterborough to Norwich in 2006 - I always made a point of using the declassified first class section even when I had a seat reservation in Standard. Am I right in thinking that the 222s were rather quickly ordered when it was deemed that the MML 170s were quickly overcrowded soon after introduction?

Yeah, the ex-MML 170s formally cascaded over to the Central Trains fleet from the end of July 2004 onwards, as the 222s came into service as a result of MML demand growth. Though the waters are muddied slightly, as four, unspecified, MML 170s were hired by Central Trains from the previous summer for Coventry - Nottingham services.

 

[danielnez1]

I guess MML and Central Trains both having National Express as their parent helped a lot with short term transfers. Looking here, it seems to suggest that Central Trains had a general shortage of units (surprise surprise) at times, which may explain the hire of MML units.

 

[Stossgebet]

I guess MML and Central Trains both having National Express as their parent helped a lot with short term transfers. Looking here, it seems to suggest that Central Trains had a general shortage of units (surprise surprise) at times, which may explain the hire of MML units.

Was it an even bigger picture swop?
I remember Central trains lending 158's and 153's to wessex trains? Could it have been that the 170's went from MM to CT to allow other units to go to the south west (remembering that wessex crew wouldn't sign 170's, so needed something they already had)?
Or perhaps the swops were entirely seperate events with different time frames.

 

[danielnez1]

Was it an even bigger picture swop?
I remember Central trains lending 158's and 153's to wessex trains? Could it have been that the 170's went from MM to CT to allow other units to go to the south west (remembering that wessex crew wouldn't sign 170's, so needed something they already had)?
Or perhaps the swops were entirely seperate events with different time frames.

Without concrete evidence I guess we won’t know, it was certainly a complex period!

 

[Sprinter107]

Central also hired a 158 to Thames Trains for a period too. It usually went down on a Sunday if I remember correctly ftom Worcester, and returned late on the following Friday night. It was used on the Bristol to Oxford and Bicester Town routes.

 

[edwin_m]

I think that became 170399 - On display in 'Traveller' form in January 2001, and on the test track at Litchurch Lane as 170399 two months later in March.

As I recall, the 'Traveller' concept was designed as a lighter weight variant through the use of lighter bogies and better acceleration through downgrading to a 75mph maximum.

I saw the Traveller being exhibited at the NEC - I don't think it was January though, so it may have had more than one outing. But I don't think it was ever main line certified in that condition. ADTranz/Bombardier were producing the 376 at about the same time, to a rather similar interior spec.

There may have been the intent to re-engineer it under the floor but I'm pretty sure the one exhibited was standard - it was facing gangway end to the entrance at the exhibition which gave a much less impact but meant nobody could see the engine.

 

[Helvellyn]

[T]here probably should be a Turbostar history thread given how in their early days there were loads of variants and interior fitouts, plus the traveller.

Agree! I've tried to work out for a while when the various batches of Class 168/170/171 units were ordered and delivered.