Minimum Service Levels Bill receives Royal Assent

[Horizon22]

You would be surprised how many people have that view.

There are large swaythes of the country who literally never travel by train. I live at the northern end of Thameslink in Bedfordshire. A while back my teenage son wen't to London for the day with some of his sixth form mates. One had NEVER been on a train before. Imagine what it is like further out of London.

The some people pay tax for education but don't have kids argument dosent really wash. For a start they themselves went to school and their kith and kin have kids.

When going by train is wholly alien, paying £10 billion a year out of taxes to support the *minority* who do rather grates.

Not that those who travel on Thameslink are subsidised by anyone. An annual season ticket from Flitwick to Bedford (one stop) costs £1824, compared with £1364 from Wigan to Manchester, about three times the distance.

Of course many don't travel. But even then I think there's a difference between not travelling and not finding it useful for their purposes and actively believing the network should be "shut down"; people can appreciate it might be useful for others. Also those who regularly travel by car, especially along trunk routes connecting cities should be thankful there aren't more cars on the road!

And yes London & SE generally (although less so since Covid) has helped the railways revenues, which is why a reduction in regular commuting and business travel and proved such an issue in industry fiancnes.

 

[Annetts key]

You would be surprised how many people have that view.

Okay, so let’s widen the argument. My taxes pay for our military. But no other country has invaded the part of the U.K. where I live, so am I benefiting or not?

The local government where I am subsidises some of the bus services. But I’ve not been on a bus for many, many years.

As a tax payer, my taxes pay for all manner of things that I have never used, including but not limited to ambulances, fire service, coastguard, police (well, not for my benefit), subsidises for various businesses, even though the tax I pay when buying their products (VAT plus other) probably is more than the subsidises, plus more that I can’t think of right now.

The Royal family is paid for through tax. But I’ve not been in or visited any Royal residence or building.

As taxpayers we pay for MPs, the civil service, the law courts and the other machinery of our government and state.

If you really think we would be better off with a very small state and just rely on private vehicles on our road network, stop beating about the bush and say so.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think the argument about whether our taxes all benefit every one of us directly can run for thousands of pages, but on a rail forum, I think it may be taken as read that the rail network will stay, in some form. Therefore, to stop topic drift becoming topic hurtle, would it be better to get back to the minimum service levels issue?

 

[Krokodil]

You would be surprised how many people have that view

Usually ruddy-faced, middle-aged men who spend the rest of their time chuntering about small boats, wind turbines, and the WEF.

When going by train is wholly alien, paying £10 billion a year out of taxes to support the *minority* who do rather grates.

If those rail passengers were on the roads instead there would be gridlock.

 

[Facing Back]

Usually ruddy-faced, middle-aged men who spend the rest of their time chuntering about small boats, wind turbines, and the WEF.

The World Economic Forum?

It’s not my definition, it’s the standard definition from economics. See the IMF - https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2021/12/Global-Public-Goods-Chin-basics

Or, Britannica - https://www.britannica.com/money/topic/public-good-economics

Its "a" definition from a narrow and somewhat abtruse economic theory and an intellectual or academic exercise. I will argue that it is not the standard definition for the non-economists. When you talk about goods on a railway forum I assume most people think you are talking about freight, not the plural of good.

I think you are right in terms of your interpretation of the railways as not non-excludable and non-rivalrous, but I can't for the life of me see the relevance I'm afraid.

 

[Krokodil]

The World Economic Forum?

Yeah, said men will latch onto any conspiracy theory going.

 

[Facing Back]

Yeah, said men will latch onto any conspiracy theory going.

Are you sure that one is a conspiracy?

 

[21C101]

.

 

[Krokodil]

Are you sure that one is a conspiracy?

The idea that the world's elites are organising some kind of "great reset" involving microchips and restricting movement to within a 15 minute zone? Yeah, that's a nutty conspiracy theory.

I doubt it. Thats been put to the test quite a bit of late (like yesterday and this coming Wednesday).

People rearrange their plans for alternative days, or cancel them entirely (with an economic hit). That's quite a different scenario to a permanent closure. Quite apart from the fact that freight still runs on strike days but wouldn't if the network closed.

 

[21C101]

The idea that the world's elites are organising some kind of "great reset" involving microchips and restricting movement to within a 15 minute zone? Yeah, that's a nutty conspiracy theory.

The idea that they have aspirations to do that far from a conspiracy theory. The idea that they are remotely capable of achieving it is a deluded conspiracy theory.

WEF, Bilderberg etc are just self important and very wealthy people pontificating to a sympathetic audience.

 

[Krokodil]

The idea that they have aspirations to do that far from a conspiracy theory

One research paper does not a policy make.

WEF, Bilderberg etc are just self important and very wealthy people pontificating to a sympathetic audience

Very true, appalling amount of CO2 emissions generated by their booze-up in Davos.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone have anything to add regarding the Minimum Service Levels Bill?

 

[dk1]

Nope

 

[Wolfie]

And herein lies one of the (many) problems. They will "choose" the same staff everytime. The mugs like me that sign all routes and all traction. Meanwhile colleagues with limited route knowledge will be left alone. Now depending on your view that may workout, but it is unfair on me for being forced to cross picket line, and similarly it is unfair on my colleague who loses more pay than I do (it isn't there fault they have less RK). Companies cannot just "choose" as you put it. A fair method would be needed.

I guess that the implied response message is make yourself less useful going forward....

Does anyone have anything to add regarding the Minimum Service Levels Bill?

Being a pedant l would observe that it is now, having received Royal assent, the Minimum Service Levels Act.

 

[Florence Rox]

Does anybody know when this will be implemented? I work for London Underground and if I am selected by the management to cross a picket line, I will probably retire with immediate effect. I am past retiring age btw.

 

[Economist]

The trains I'm driving are more often than not absolutely rammed with passengers and the company I work for is more of a leisure than commuter operator. Dwell times are often three or four minutes and as a result I'm at full power or line speed most of the time even though I sign DAS.

 

[Facing Back]

Does anybody know when this will be implemented? I work for London Underground and if I am selected by the management to cross a picket line, I will probably retire with immediate effect. I am past retiring age btw.

Somebody closer to this might be able to give you a more complete answer, but it can't be very imminent and I haven't seen a published date for it. The government has not yet responded (last time I looked) to the consultation on what the minimum service levels will be and there then needs to be secondary legislation passed in both houses of parliament to confirm this.

 

[Class 170101]

From what I have read on this board the number of people required to attend work might vary widely. However what would be the answer to this question

80% of services required to run (I could see the Tories doing this)
How many signallers would you need? All of them?

 

[Bald Rick]

80% of services required to run (I could see the Tories doing this)
How many signallers would you need? All of them?

Depends which 80% you want. If you wanted the 80% of services on the network that don’t run in Scotland, Wales, west of Exeter, Cumbria (bar the WCML) and a few other branch lines, you’d probably only need about half of them.

If you want the whole network open but for 80% of the service level on every route, then it’s all the signallers.

 

[Krokodil]

If you want the whole network open but for 80% of the service level on every route, then it’s all the signallers.

Yep, bar perhaps the meal reliefs (accepting that everything will grind to a halt while the entire ROC has their break).

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep, bar perhaps the meal reliefs (accepting that everything will grind to a halt while the entire ROC has their break).

In which case you’d have them in.

 

[Andrew1395]

Will the minimum service level apply on Christmas Day and Boxing Day?

 

[Facing Back]

Will the minimum service level apply on Christmas Day and Boxing Day?

Would there likely be strikes on these days?

 

[Train_manager]

Would there likely be strikes on these days?

They was last year!!

 

[Krokodil]

In which case you’d have them in.

You could manage without them, it wouldn't be the first time that every train controlled by a given workstation has ground to a halt for half an hour.

 

[Jonny]

The trains I'm driving are more often than not absolutely rammed with passengers and the company I work for is more of a leisure than commuter operator. Dwell times are often three or four minutes and as a result I'm at full power or line speed most of the time even though I sign DAS.

What is DAS and (how) is that supposed to affect train driving?

 

[Facing Back]

They was last year!!

Well in that case it would apply! When the secondary legislation is published it could have something specific for those days, but as I recall, the act is silent on it. If they specify minimum service is "80% of all timetables services" then 80% of 0 is....

You could manage without them, it wouldn't be the first time that every train controlled by a given workstation has ground to a halt for half an hour.

Why would the TOCs and NR, who will be specifying who they need in, accept the half hour downtime when they can instruct the reliefs to come in?

 

[Bald Rick]

You could manage without them, it wouldn't be the first time that every train controlled by a given workstation has ground to a halt for half an hour.

Don’t I know it. But there’s a difference between one workstation, and the whole network.

 

[baz962]

I'm confused. Wouldn't the signallers be in as normal as they aren't striking or just paid to stay home if not needed.

 

[Sheridan]

I'm confused. Wouldn't the signallers be in as normal as they aren't striking or just paid to stay home if not needed.

They may well be on strike, we’re discussing a bill about minimum service levels across the industry during future industrial action.