Missed connection (multiple operators)

[stuart]

If I use the VTEC website I can buy a through (advance first) fare from Kings Cross to Inverness leaving KGX at 1500, arriving EDB 1918, and then departing EDB 1942 on a Scotrail service. That's a 24 minute connection time, and the 1942 is the last train of the day from EDB to INV.

Yesterday the VTEC train arrived in EDB at 1943 and the Scotrail service had already left on schedule. Does anyone know what VTEC's liability is in this circumstance? Do they stump up for an Edinburgh hotel?

If I booked two separate tickets, I could understand them refusing any claim, but they're the ones saying the connection "works". (If I were booking separate tickets I'd allow myself a bit more changing time, but the website doesn't give me this option, at least not without buying full price tickets!)

 

[najaB]

In this circumstance if you are the only passenger then expect a hotel. If there are two or more of you then expect a taxi to Inverness.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If I use the VTEC website I can buy a through (advance first) fare from Kings Cross to Inverness leaving KGX at 1500, arriving EDB 1918, and then departing EDB 1942 on a Scotrail service. That's a 24 minute connection time, and the 1942 is the last train of the day from EDB to INV.

Yesterday the VTEC train arrived in EDB at 1943 and the Scotrail service had already left on schedule. Does anyone know what VTEC's liability is in this circumstance? Do they stump up for an Edinburgh hotel?

If I booked two separate tickets, I could understand them refusing any claim, but they're the ones saying the connection "works". (If I were booking separate tickets I'd allow myself a bit more changing time, but the website doesn't give me this option, at least not without buying full price tickets!)

If your itinerary* respects minimum change/transfer times, then you have just as much of an entitlement to onward travel or accomodation if you book one through ticket as if you book several split tickets. This is why the National Rail Conditions of Travel make the distinction between your journey and your ticket(s) - making clear that, for example, you may use multiple tickets to make one journey (Condition 14.1), and that any Train Company will, if it can, arrange alternative travel or overnight accomodation if disruption prevents you from completing your journey (Condition 28.2).

So in the situation you described, unless there were some alternative way of making the journey on that day (e.g. the last train being held, which occasionally happens), then any train company able to assist - whether that be VTEC, ScotRail or any other train company - must and will get you to your destination or provide you with overnight accomodation.

In practice, when using split tickets it is unlikely that the (almost certainly misinformed and poorly trained) station staff would do this, but if efforts to escalate your requests still fail, I would think you would be perfectly entitled to claim back any reasonable amounts you spent for either option from any company that had refused.

*Whether 'official' and provided as part of your booking, or 'unofficial' by virtue of not being provided in conjunction with a booking and/or being calculated by non-'approved' websites, or even manually.

 

[Samuel88]

In this circumstance if you are the only passenger then expect a hotel. If there are two or more of you then expect a taxi to Inverness.

If your itinerary* respects minimum change/transfer times, then you have just as much of an entitlement to onward travel or accomodation if you book one through ticket as if you book several split tickets. This is why the National Rail Conditions of Travel make the distinction between your journey and your ticket(s) - making clear that, for example, you may use multiple tickets to make one journey (Condition 14.1), and that any Train Company will, if it can, arrange alternative travel or overnight accomodation if disruption prevents you from completing your journey (Condition 28.2).

So in the situation you described, unless there were some alternative way of making the journey on that day (e.g. the last train being held, which occasionally happens), then any train company able to assist - whether that be VTEC, ScotRail or any other train company - must and will get you to your destination or provide you with overnight accomodation.

In practice, when using split tickets it is unlikely that the (almost certainly misinformed and poorly trained) station staff would do this, but if efforts to escalate your requests still fail, I would think you would be perfectly entitled to claim back any reasonable amounts you spent for either option from any company that had refused.

*Whether 'official' and provided as part of your booking, or 'unofficial' by virtue of not being provided in conjunction with a booking and/or being calculated by non-'approved' websites, or even manually.

In theory they have to provide accommodation or onward travel but in practice the few times I've been stranded by missed connections all I've ever received was a shrug.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

In theory they have to provide accommodation or onward travel but in practice the few times I've been stranded by missed connections all I've ever received was a shrug.

If it was me I would, after making all possible efforts to obtain transport or accomodation out of them or any available managers, Twitter etc., make my own arrangements and send them the bill afterwards (figuratively speaking). It's not acceptable for them to be stranding passengers with valid connections.

 

[stuart]

Some interesting insights here, thank you all very much. As it happens, my commitments at the London end have now been altered slightly and I'll be able to get the earlier direct train (the 1200 Chieftain) as usual. But I'll bear in mind the points made for a possible future journey, so thanks again.

 

[yorkie]

If I booked two separate tickets, I could understand them refusing any claim

Why? It would be totally unacceptable if they did that. It would be a very serious breach of consumer law and contract law.

You are perfectly entitled to use two or more tickets for one journey. This is very clearly stated in the Conditions of Travel.

At present, some train companies are encouraging passengers to book a combination of fares, due to delays releasing Advance fares for some routes. Some journeys require a combination of tickets.

There are also National Rail accredited rail booking sites that will check if a combination of fares is cheaper than a through fare, and issue these if it is cheaper.

Anyway, they might hold the train if enough people informed the staff they were making that connection. Or, if they were quick enough, they might be able to order taxis to go direct to Perth which might possibly intercept the train. Failing everything else, it would be a taxi to Inverness or overnight accommodation .

but they're the ones saying the connection "works". (If I were booking separate tickets I'd allow myself a bit more changing time, but the website doesn't give me this option, at least not without buying full price tickets!)

Minimum interchange time is 10 minutes.

You can get additional interchange option using some websites, e.g. Trainsplit allows this. Click "Advanced Options" and then tick 'Change at', specify your station, and enter the additional interchange time.

 

[221129]

I think we also need to remember that the NRCoT only states the TOC has to provide transport or accommodation if it reasonably can...

 

[yorkie]

They would need a very good reason not to e.g. severe weather conditions making the roads impassible, and no accommodation being available in Edinburgh.

 

[zoneking]

Sorry to be sensible here, but if 1942 is the last train of the day from EDB to INV, why did it not wait to pick people up from the VTEC train?

 

[najaB]

Sorry to be sensible here, but if 1942 is the last train of the day from EDB to INV, why did it not wait to pick people up from the VTEC train?

Someone would've had to make the call to hold it as the 1942 is the last connection at Inverness for destinations to Tain.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think we also need to remember that the NRCoT only states the TOC has to provide transport or accommodation if it reasonably can...

They would need a compelling reason not to. I’m struggling to think of how a TOC could fail to book either a hotel room or onward transport in Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland.

 

[Highlandspring]

Sorry to be sensible here, but if 1942 is the last train of the day from EDB to INV, why did it not wait to pick people up from the VTEC train?

Quite simply VTEC didn’t request it.

As an aside if I were heading to Inverness from the south I would’t travel on 1S22 to connect onto 1H19 as it is generally pretty unreliable.

 

[221129]

They would need a compelling reason not to. I’m struggling to think of how a TOC could fail to book either a hotel room or onward transport in Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland.

If the fringe is on and poor weather conditions on the roads to Inverness...

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would need a compelling reason not to. I’m struggling to think of how a TOC could fail to book either a hotel room or onward transport in Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland.

I think the combination of heavy snow and the Edinburgh Festival would be somewhat apocalyptic

Though they could still do something e.g. send you to Glasgow free of charge.

 

[221129]

I think the combination of heavy snow and the Edinburgh Festival would be somewhat apocalyptic

Though they could still do something e.g. send you to Glasgow free of charge.

Although heavy rain or local taxis not wanting to go to Inverness is more likely.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why would you change at Edinburgh and not Stirling on S22? you'd be further towards your destination.

 

[najaB]

Why would you change at Edinburgh and not Stirling on S22? you'd be further towards your destination.

But unable to make a connection until the morning.

 

[OwlMan]

Sorry to be sensible here, but if 1942 is the last train of the day from EDB to INV, why did it not wait to pick people up from the VTEC train?

Because as we do not know if there was anyone wanting that connection (the OP was not on the train) we do not know if there was a need to hold the service.

 

[ainsworth74]

Because as we do not know if there was anyone wanting that connection (the OP was not on the train) we do not know if there was a need to hold the service.

Yes someone I know who works for Northern in their control made the point that, for example, they're quite likely to hold the last train to Saltburn from Darlington but only if someone tells them that there are passengers for it on a delayed train. They won't just hold a train speculatively.

 

[robbeech]

No doubt if they held it on the off chance there were passengers wanting it, and there were none, any penalties for the delay would be down to them despite their best efforts to be helpful.

In this situation described here i would expect you'd be put on the next train to Perth, and a taxi from Perth, or at a stretch Aberdeen. Or sent as far as they could with a view to providing accommodation there. At least you have less travelling to do the following morning.

And if i was running late for this service i would be talking to the guard to explain the situation before i arrived at Edinburgh. That said, given the choices of changing at Edinburgh or Stirling to receive help and possible hotel or taxi i'd be choosing Edinburgh as it is a larger station with VTEC staff (The ones responsible).

 

[najaB]

That said, given the choices of changing at Edinburgh or Stirling...

As noted above, changing at Stirling would involve a wait of 10 hours if trains were running to plan.

 

[Highlandspring]

Because as we do not know if there was anyone wanting that connection (the OP was not on the train) we do not know if there was a need to hold the service.

I, however, am in a position to say authoritatively that Virgin did not ask for the ScotRail service to be held that evening.

 

[bb21]

Is there an official connection policy for that service?

The taxi bill for the intending passengers may well come to less than holding the service otherwise. Good commercial decision in which case, but rubbish in terms of customer journey experience.

 

[Wallsendmag]

My changing at Stirling comment was in the case of trains running late. I’m sure that would be the answer given , get as far as you can by train and we’ll organise a taxi onwards.

 

[najaB]

My changing at Stirling comment was in the case of trains running late. I’m sure that would be the answer given , get as far as you can by train and we’ll organise a taxi onwards.

In that case it would make more sense to change at Edinburgh into a Perth train.

 

[stuart]

Thanks again for all the responses. Just to be clear, I wasn't on the train I referred to that was running late - my question was a hypothetical one as I was looking at a possible booking for next week and wanted to check recent history. So I'm not suggesting that the Scotrail service should have been held on that occasion.

As someone has pointed out, holding one service can have a knock-on effect on another, so the consequences have to be thought through carefully.

Unfortunately 1S22's booked arrival into STG just misses the GLQ-ABD service which provides a connection with 1H19 at PTH, so in the event of missing 1H19 at EDB the furtherst north one can sensibly get is PTH (either from STG or direct from EDB).

Left to my own devices, I would not make a booking on the 1S22 from KGX - as someone has pointed out, it's relaibility history is not great. It also seems to be a fairly soft target for terminating at EDBif anything goes wrong. So I'd have taken the train before and made use of the slack time in EDB to get an evening meal. But while the VTEC site allows a through booking at the "first advance" fare using 1S22, it doesn't allow a through booking at this rate on an earlier train. So I'd have ended up paying roughly twice the fare in order to buy a bit of breathing space. One of the occasions when split ticketing actually doesn't save money!

 

[Joe Paxton]

In theory they have to provide accommodation or onward travel but in practice the few times I've been stranded by missed connections all I've ever received was a shrug.

Curious - when travelling on split tickets, or just one through ticket?

 

[Samuel88]

Curious - when travelling on split tickets, or just one through ticket?

On through tickets, to be honest even though I know I could save money, most of the time I can't be bothered with the hassle of looking at all the options of splitting!

 

[yorkie]

Curious - when travelling on split tickets, or just one through ticket?

Makes no difference to the contractual position.

I've missed the last train on occasions and had taxis from London to York (the taxi went on to Ashton-under-Lyne!) and Newcastle to York. In both cases I was using a combination of tickets for my journey.