Misuse of Spouse travel Pass

[Tallguy]

Again (for the 3rd time), I go from my own experience whereby I have seen colleagues in the same position and they have been summarily dismissed. And that is not something you want on your record for potentially years to come.

I have seen and heard of plenty cases whereby a good Union rep will actually advise resigning because it is cut and dry that the alleged offence a) took place and b) is clearly defined in the company's code of conduct. It is quite possible that the OP is in this unfortunate situation. You don't need to be a "legal adviser" to recommend this. I have also been in disciplinary situations and won, but the facts were much more poorly ill-defined and my case was much much stronger. Why would a resignation "backfire spectacularly"? I agree that if it is believed that the gross misconduct charge is severely overtrumped you'd have lost your job when you might have just got a warning, but the Union rep evidently doesn't think it is.

If he wants to fight it, by all means ask for an adjournment and it is right they have the time to collate all the information & facts. But it is a gamble to take when the company clearly has evidence of wrong-doing. The only mitigating factor is the breakdown in the relationship, but sadly I don't think that would be enough to persuade a senior manager without strong evidence as @MotCO mentions. I'm all for wishing colleagues well but there's no point just blindly wishing "good luck" when the OP is very, very close to losing their job and that reality needs to be faced head-on.

I have to say Horizon22 I disagree with almost all that you have written above.

This is by no means cut and dry. Just because you have seen others dismissed for GM doesn’t mean that it will happen in this case. All circumstances are unique. The Union has failed here spectacularly. The resignation theory backfires spectacularly when the OP walks out of the disciplinary with a final warning and suspension of travel privileges.

Being dismissed for GM will not stop a future career in any industry (remember redundancy is a form of dismissal) unless it’s for assault or possibly theft and the negative theme from some posters on this thread of ‘resign resign resign’ does not take into account the OP’s situation where resignation means no social security benefits, mortgage insurance policy support etc. It could be years before a suitable position comes up in the rail industry that the OP could apply for following a resignation.

The OP needs help and support, not someone saying Jack it in, walk away and start again If you can. Then there is the risk of the reference saying ‘resignation on day of disciplinary hearing.....’

You need to look at the bigger picture, it ain’t over ‘til it’s over and even if this does lead to dismissal, there is potential come back via an ET, appeal or settlement agreement.

But please don’t tell someone to resign their career and face possible destitution.

 

[LCC106]

Worth adding that you are allowed to request postponement for a reasonable time to obtain advice but it is not for you to say that you need 14 days. To be fair, postponing was advised a few days ago so the employer would be in their rights to ask why that wasn’t requested before Monday. If it is granted at such a late stage, take whatever time they give you even if it’s just a couple of days.

Also agree that suggesting you resign is not the best bit of advice here! As far as I know none of us are lawyers so unless someone IS and they are offering to advise you pro bono (and are insured to do so) then please don’t jump into any hasty decisions! Of course, some people do have experience of such proceedings on either side of the table.

 

[Horizon22]

I have to say Horizon22 I disagree with almost all that you have written above.

This is by no means cut and dry. Just because you have seen others dismissed for GM doesn’t mean that it will happen in this case. All circumstances are unique. The Union has failed here spectacularly. The resignation theory backfires spectacularly when the OP walks out of the disciplinary with a final warning and suspension of travel privileges.

Being dismissed for GM will not stop a future career in any industry (remember redundancy is a form of dismissal) unless it’s for assault or possibly theft and the negative theme from some posters on this thread of ‘resign resign resign’ does not take into account the OP’s situation where resignation means no social security benefits, mortgage insurance policy support etc. It could be years before a suitable position comes up in the rail industry that the OP could apply for following a resignation.

The OP needs help and support, not someone saying Jack it in, walk away and start again If you can. Then there is the risk of the reference saying ‘resignation on day of disciplinary hearing.....’

You need to look at the bigger picture, it ain’t over ‘til it’s over and even if this does lead to dismissal, there is potential come back via an ET, appeal or settlement agreement.

But please don’t tell someone to resign their career and face possible destitution.

Of course me having seen it before doesn't mean this case will but, from what I've read, the circumstances are very similar. You seem to be thinking that the Union has gone "oh this is too hard, resign" which is contrary to any evidence I've ever seen of Union reps, even ones I've not cared much for - they'll often represent lost causes. But when it comes to gross misconduct they often take stock because it can have long-lasting consequences for that employee if guilty, especially if they want to remain in the rail industry (I'm not arguing about any future career in any industry just this one). It might not end up in dismissal, but it could still lead to a demotion or transfer or a removal of benefits etc, but I think it is likely they would go for dismissal. Plus when a case gets this far, I'd hope it's been escalated further than just the local rep and even if not, no doubt they have taken guidance from above. We'd all like for good people who make mistakes not to lose their jobs, but that is not the real world.

Ultimately it is a high-stakes gamble and we don't have the full information. I hope the OP has gone through every fact about this case with their rep of otherwise as if they want to fight they will need a lot of mitigating circumstances. Sure "it ain't over til its over", but IF it is over, it is over in a big way. And of course you can come back via appeals and tribunals but that can be even more stresssful and/or costly.

That's the balance of probabilities the OP has to go through and of course people have varying views (including the OP's union who are probably the best qualified imo), I'm just stating mine. Destitution is laying it on a bit thick. I of course wish them good luck but all sides must be considered, however extreme they may seem.

 

[najaB]

To be fair, postponing was advised a few days ago so the employer would be in their rights to ask why that wasn’t requested before Monday.

If I understand the thread correctly, the OP only found out last Tuesday that the hearing would be this coming Monday. That short of a notice period is, IMO, unreasonable in normal circumstances and doubly so in the middle of a pandemic with restrictions on movement and in-person meetings. So I think the company should grant an adjournment if requested, even on the day. Failing to do so could leave them liable to an unfair dismissal claim if the decision goes that way.

 

[Horizon22]

If I understand the thread correctly, the OP only found out last Tuesday that the hearing would be this coming Monday. That short of a notice period is, IMO, unreasonable in normal circumstances and doubly so in the middle of a pandemic with restrictions on movement and in-person meetings. So I think the company should grant an adjournment if requested, even on the day. Failing to do so could leave them liable to an unfair dismissal claim if the decision goes that way.

I agree at least 7 days is the norm and postponements are regularly agreed if you cannot find the rep you want or isn't available on that date. Of course the OP might be understandably stressed about the situation so hasn't considered all these options. If the intention is to defend the allegation then an adjournment should be requested and should be granted, as others have alluded to.

 

[LCC106]

Yes, I agree but it has been suggested to the OP to request the adjournment a few days ago and we don’t think he has acted on it. Unless of course the OP doesn’t feel he would have been able to contact anyone from the company prior to Monday, which would make sense.

 

[philthetube]

I'm sorry to hear this. I'm also not that happy to tell you a similar situation happened twice at my TOC which had clamped down on two employees for (I believe) substantially lower fares uncovered by their partner/spouse; one resigned before the hearing, the other one went into the hearing and was summarily dismissed. It's a situation taken very seriously as a substantial misuse of staff privileges and many TOCs will have something along these lines listed in their code of conduct.

Ultimately the passes are your responsibility as they are issued through your employment. I know its tough to take, but if you do not have a really strong defence, the union advice might be the best way forward.

You work for a TOC and not for LUL, it is more common for people to come back from these hearings with jobs than without, really don't think you have the relevant knowledge concerning LUL procedures to be scaring the op like this.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You work for a TOC and not for LUL, it is more common for people to come back from these hearings with jobs than without, really don't think you have the relevant knowledge concerning LUL procedures to be scaring the op like this.

Do we know who the OP works for? I don't recall seeing it in the thread, but I may have missed it.

(Edited to add) And of course I am not asking the OP to tell us their company if they don't want to: it might tell the world too much about who the OP is.

 

[LCC106]

In posts 17 and 20 the union rep has apparently advised the OP he thinks dismissal isn’t the most likely action. In 43 the OP has emailed RSTL advising them not to send the spouse another pass. A screenshot of post number 1 (genuine time shock, reaction etc) and copy of the email to RSTL may be useful to take tomorrow as back up as to how the OP felt and his genuine lack of knowledge that spouse was using the pass incorrectly, as well as evidence he has taken action to prevent reoccurrence in future. I actually had it in my head he worked for LUL but not sure why unless he has posted then edited this out.

Edit to add there is a risk with screenshot of 1 that it draws the company’s attention to the whole thread.

 

[Hanson]

In posts 17 and 20 the union rep has apparently advised the OP he thinks dismissal isn’t the most likely action. In 43 the OP has emailed RSTL advising them not to send the spouse another pass. A screenshot of post number 1 (genuine time shock, reaction etc) and copy of the email to RSTL may be useful to take tomorrow as back up as to how the OP felt and his genuine lack of knowledge that spouse was using the pass incorrectly, as well as evidence he has taken action to prevent reoccurrence in future. I actually had it in my head he worked for LUL but not sure why unless he has posted then edited this out.

I work for a TOC and I have emailed RSTL to prevent future occurrence but all impression I get from union is it don’t matter as that’s an action I’m taking too late.
Honestly, I’m just sick right now my heart is failing me, can’t even speak
Strongly considering to put in the resignation letter tomorrow and end it all.
I’m so emotionally exhausted and weak.

please please guys, my spouse been taken to court is what I’m also getting worried about now, as her career as a nurse might be impacted which I don’t wish because of the impact of care my son will suffer when I move on with mylife.
For the sake of my son, I want to try and hope if this can be settled out of court for her, during the time of NHS crisis don’t wish her loosing her job to if taken to court

what action can I take to help for my sons sake please, they would still need financial income for my sons up keep as I might be out of job

 

[WesternLancer]

please please guys, my spouse been taken to court is what I’m also getting worried about now, as her career as a nurse might be impacted which I don’t wish because of the impact of care my son will suffer when I move on with mylife.
For the sake of my son, I want to try and hope if this can be settled out of court for her, during the time of NHS crisis don’t wish her loosing her job to if taken to court

what action can I take to help for my sons sake please, they would still need financial income for my sons up keep as I might be out of job

Until after your hearing let your wife focus on that issue. She needs to make contact with the TOC or rail staff travel with a clear offer to repay that sum and an expression of remorse for using the pass inappropriately - it would help if her letter takes full written blame for doing that on herslef too. I doubt it would cause her to loose her NHS job, and she can get support and help from her union / professional association ref that. Not wanting to be hard on her - but keep your eye on your own circs ahead of the hearing is my view.

Obv this is highly stressful for you, but try to focus on next few days, some great advice on here, and your friends etc will be there to support you, and also on here with advice you can use. All is not lost by any means! And very best wishes to you as well.

 

[Titfield]

I appreciate you are emotionally wrought but you need to decide on a plan of action.

Acting in haste is rarely a good idea.

My plan for what it is worth would be:

1. DO NOT RESIGN AS THIS PRECLUDES ALL OTHER FORMS OF ACTION

2. Go to the hearing and ask for it to be adjourned to seek legal advice.*

3. If adjournment is granted seek legal advice for the new hearing date.

4. If adjournment is not granted state your case honestly answering any questions they may ask to the best of your knowledge. If you cant answer as you do not know then say so.

5. If the outcome is unfavourable seek legal advice as to your prospects on appeal.

*Given you could lose your job, your wife could lose your job, your son may suffer you should state this as part of your request for an adjournment to seek legal advice.

6 Try to keep calm and act rationally. If you "throw your teddies out of the pram" you may lose any benefit of the doubt or sympathy.

 

[cadder toad]

I appreciate you are emotionally wrought but you need to decide on a plan of action.

Acting in haste is rarely a good idea.

My plan for what it is worth would be:

1. DO NOT RESIGN AS THIS PRECLUDES ALL OTHER FORMS OF ACTION

2. Go to the hearing and ask for it to be adjourned to seek legal advice.*

3. If adjournment is granted seek legal advice for the new hearing date.

4. If adjournment is not granted state your case honestly answering any questions they may ask to the best of your knowledge. If you cant answer as you do not know then say so.

5. If the outcome is unfavourable seek legal advice as to your prospects on appeal.

*Given you could lose your job, your wife could lose your job, your son may suffer you should state this as part of your request for an adjournment to seek legal advice.

6 Try to keep calm and act rationally. If you "throw your teddies out of the pram" you may lose any benefit of the doubt or sympathy.

- take a step by step approach. These are the steps I would recommend too .

 

[MotCO]

I appreciate you are emotionally wrought but you need to decide on a plan of action.

Acting in haste is rarely a good idea.

My plan for what it is worth would be:

1. DO NOT RESIGN AS THIS PRECLUDES ALL OTHER FORMS OF ACTION

2. Go to the hearing and ask for it to be adjourned to seek legal advice.*

3. If adjournment is granted seek legal advice for the new hearing date.

4. If adjournment is not granted state your case honestly answering any questions they may ask to the best of your knowledge. If you cant answer as you do not know then say so.

5. If the outcome is unfavourable seek legal advice as to your prospects on appeal.

*Given you could lose your job, your wife could lose your job, your son may suffer you should state this as part of your request for an adjournment to seek legal advice.

6 Try to keep calm and act rationally. If you "throw your teddies out of the pram" you may lose any benefit of the doubt or sympathy.

I also agree with this approach, with a further point:

7. Think of what questions the panel can ask, and prepare your answers (in much the same way as the Prime Minister prepares for Prime Minister's Questions). Having ready answers avoids awkward silences and will give you greater confidence.

The sort of questions they could ask are:

1. Did you know your wife was using the pass inappropriately, if not, why not?
2. Why did you not check your wife was not using the pass inappropriately?
3. How did you think she was paying for her commute?
4. Did you not notice the purchase of tickets on bank statements or credit card statements? (Possible answer - you had separate bank accounts and never saw her statements.)
5. Are you still living in the same house as your wife? That on the face of it does not suggest a broken marriage, so you may need to set out reasons for that. It may be lack of options, lack of money, childcare arrangements etc, but you need to have an answer.
6. If you are living under the same roof, you need to demonstrate how separate your lives are. Do you eat separate meals etc? If not, why not? (Possible answer - to try to let your child have as stable a life as possible during your marriage troubles.)
7. We have already discussed the train journeys to buy a second car - again, prepare your answers.

Please don't despair. Try not to worry about your wife's position (I don't think it is as bad as you may think). And Good Luck.

 

[Horizon22]

You work for a TOC and not for LUL, it is more common for people to come back from these hearings with jobs than without, really don't think you have the relevant knowledge concerning LUL procedures to be scaring the op like this.

Since when does OP work for LuL? Edit: I see he has answered he doesn't.

please please guys, my spouse been taken to court is what I’m also getting worried about now, as her career as a nurse might be impacted which I don’t wish because of the impact of care my son will suffer when I move on with mylife.
For the sake of my son, I want to try and hope if this can be settled out of court for her, during the time of NHS crisis don’t wish her loosing her job to if taken to court

what action can I take to help for my sons sake please, they would still need financial income for my sons up keep as I might be out of job

I strongly recommend a adjournment at this time - have you got a rep arranged for the meeting?

 

[Mak1981]

What sort of relationship do you have with your manager? And manager taking the conduct hearing if different?

Have you a spotless discipline record?
Good sickness record?
Would you say manager likes you?
Are you a pain in the ass for them?
Do you help them out when they ask?
Help out with rest day work etc?

None of these things have a direct bearing on your outcome as things should be decided on merits, but a good working relationship with your manager may just save your job

Remember the cost to replace you is fairly high, so if you are genuinely a decent employee on a normal basis and this is clearly a one off your manager may not push for dismissal, may have to be seen to take action so expect as about a severe reprimand as possible short of dismissal but having to pay back the lost revenue and keep nose clean for the foreseeable would be a good out come, I'd even look at the possibility of taking out a loan etc for the money etc so you could go in and offer to pay money lost back within a week

 

[Hanson]

What sort of relationship do you have with your manager? And manager taking the conduct hearing if different?

Have you a spotless discipline record?
Good sickness record?
Would you say manager likes you?
Are you a pain in the ass for them?
Do you help them out when they ask?
Help out with rest day work etc?

None of these things have a direct bearing on your outcome as things should be decided on merits, but a good working relationship with your manager may just save your job

Remember the cost to replace you is fairly high, so if you are genuinely a decent employee on a normal basis and this is clearly a one off your manager may not push for dismissal, may have to be seen to take action so expect as about a severe reprimand as possible short of dismissal but having to pay back the lost revenue and keep nose clean for the foreseeable would be a good out come, I'd even look at the possibility of taking out a loan etc for the money etc so you could go in and offer to pay money lost back within a week

Impressions have got from union is that it won’t matter, all they doing me for is breaking work policies which i feel is harsh, there’s always going to be mistakes
As have got few other jobs on the railways process on going like assements and probably interviews soon hopefully getting a dismissal is my fear because union don’t even want to fight for me

 

[Tallguy]

I work for a TOC and I have emailed RSTL to prevent future occurrence but all impression I get from union is it don’t matter as that’s an action I’m taking too late.
Honestly, I’m just sick right now my heart is failing me, can’t even speak
Strongly considering to put in the resignation letter tomorrow and end it all.
I’m so emotionally exhausted and weak.

please please guys, my spouse been taken to court is what I’m also getting worried about now, as her career as a nurse might be impacted which I don’t wish because of the impact of care my son will suffer when I move on with mylife.
For the sake of my son, I want to try and hope if this can be settled out of court for her, during the time of NHS crisis don’t wish her loosing her job to if taken to court

what action can I take to help for my sons sake please, they would still need financial income for my sons up keep as I might be out of job

I feel the Union has failed you here, none the less you need to face the hearing tomorrow.

As others have said, don’t resign and focus on the hearing tomorrow - your spouses’ case will have to wait until After your hearing. Having a letter from your spouse taking full responsibility for her actions and offering to repay the money may help at your hearing. As others have commented don’t resign - if you do you have nowhere to go.

Prepare answers to likely questions, think about how you will approach the hearing, ask for an adjournment so that you can seek advice and if that isn’t successful concentrate on securing your position and getting out with a written warning and an order to repay the money.

Keep calm, act rationally, focus on the outcome you want. Your line manager will potentially have some input, if you have a good track record on sickness etc then that may help swing things in your favour. I’m unsure what your role on the railway is, but as others have stated if it’s one where there is short supply or high training costs that may also help.

Finally, get some sleep tonight, make sure your turnout is immaculate tomorrow and don’t throw your toys out of your pram.

Good luck.

 

[MotCO]

Prepare answers to likely questions

And don't forget to take the notes in with you. You should be allowed to refer to them in the meeting - it will also help to give you time to phrase your responses.

You may also need to think about a closing statement -

• you are sorry it has happened,
• your wife is taking responsibility for this and wants to repay the sums involved,
• you've had domestic issues which, whilst not excusing the behaviour, helps to explain it and put it in context,
• you've been a good employee etc etc.

 

[najaB]

Impressions have got from union is that it won’t matter, all they doing me for is breaking work policies which i feel is harsh, there’s always going to be mistakes

It doesn't matter in as much as being found to 'guilty' of gross misconduct, but definitely matters as to the punishment imposed, and to your future.

Companies are loath to get rid of good employees as it will cost them a lot to replace you. Using myself as an example, the manager who had to make the decision to let me go actually called me (on the sly) afterwards and gave me advice on how to appeal - something he wouldn't have done for someone who was a pain to the company.

As it turned out my appeal was heard by the new director (he was about a month in role having joined from outside the company) who didn't know me or anything about me and (I presume) was in the "I'm going to make some changes" mode that new bosses usually are in. So he upheld the decision.

I've heard subsequently from several former colleagues that they (management) really regretted it afterwards as they didn't appreciate how much I contributed to the success of the team. It took them the better part of a year to upskill people to fill in the gap.

All this to say that, presuming you are in good standing with management, they are more likely to want to keep you than to let you go.

 

[Haywain]

Impressions have got from union is that it won’t matter, all they doing me for is breaking work policies which i feel is harsh, there’s always going to be mistakes
As have got few other jobs on the railways process on going like assements and probably interviews soon hopefully getting a dismissal is my fear because union don’t even want to fight for me

I know you don’t think much of your union but please don’t go into tomorrow’s hearing without them. The rep must have had appropriate training (this will be subject to agreement between TOC and unions) and will be far better placed than you to spot any procedural failings.

 

[WesternLancer]

I know you don’t think much of your union but please don’t go into tomorrow’s hearing without them. The rep must have had appropriate training (this will be subject to agreement between TOC and unions) and will be far better placed than you to spot any procedural failings.

This is a very good point and important advice. It might not seem like it, but odds on the union rep is doing his best to try and help, and if he can spot an irregularity with their process, so much the better.

 

[Titfield]

This is a very good point and important advice. It might not seem like it, but odds on the union rep is doing his best to try and help, and if he can spot an irregularity with their process, so much the better.

At the very least he should act as a supportive influence and help keeps things calm and measured.

I would suggest that you show contrition for what has happened and apologise unreservedly. Stress how much your career means to you, that it is all you have ever really wanted to do and that you are mortified to find yourself in this dreadful position. Whilst "facts" are "facts" disciplinary panels do have some discretion and if they are so minded can use attitude (such as contrition, apologies etc) as the tipping point in giving someone a "final chance" (final written warning) rather than dismissal.

Make sure that you leave the room having said all that you want to say (as long as its positive).

I wish you good fortune and I will be thinking of you tomorrow.

 

[MotCO]

This is a very good point and important advice. It might not seem like it, but odds on the union rep is doing his best to try and help, and if he can spot an irregularity with their process, so much the better.

And will be your witness for all that is said and done at the hearing.

 

[Hanson]

I have had to put my resignation in this morning, my rep keeps saying it’s the only way to get a clean record as he doesn’t see any other come from this other than a dismissal
Just didn’t get any strong support from him at all
I’m so shattered now
I am devastated and depressed

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would you resign??

 

[Hanson]

My case was of no interest to the rep that much and he keeps saying he doesn’t see any better action but to resign at this point
Had no choice

 

[najaB]

I have had to put my resignation in this morning, my rep keeps saying it’s the only way to get a clean record as he doesn’t see any other come from this other than a dismissal

You should withdraw it! Dismissal was only one possible outcome, and even if you were dismissed you would have had the appeal process to get try and get it reviewed.

I know I'm only one example but, even if the worst did happen, being dismissed doesn't mean that you'll never work again. I was dismissed for gross misconduct with the appeal process concluded by the first week of January and was in a new, better, job by the first week of that March. (And had to turn down another job offer!)

My case was of no interest to the rep that much and he keeps saying he doesn’t see any better action but to resign at this point

With all due to respect - there are other, possibly better, union reps out there!

 

[Hanson]

You should withdraw it! Dismissal was only one possible outcome, and even if you were dismissed you would have had the appeal process to get try and get it reviewed.


With all due to respect - there are other, possibly better, union reps out there!

As I couldn’t provide strong evidence he was requesting for like what action did I take to stop the misuse and so on the rep just made me feel it not worth fighting for

 

[WesternLancer]

As I couldn’t provide strong evidence he was requesting for like what action did I take to stop the misuse and so on the rep just made me feel it not worth fighting for

Can I ask what happened about requesting a deferral of the hearing? Did you try that and if so was the request rejected?