When it comes to representation in a disciplinary hearing only one of those is an option.I also think there was some poor advice telling the OP not to seek independent legal advice and persist with his union.
When it comes to representation in a disciplinary hearing only one of those is an option.
Depending on what is in the letter of resignation, it can be. If it contains any conditions (e.g. last working day, pay in lieu of notice, etc.) the employer can reject those terms. An employer cannot reject an unconditional letter of resignation.A resignation cannot be refused, we all have the right to end an employment contract. An employer only has a cause of action if you don't work out any notice period in the contract.
I could be wrong, but the OP wouldn't be able to take a solicitor into the hearing with them so I don't know what value it would be to engage their services at this point.I also think there was some poor advice telling the OP not to seek independent legal advice and persist with his union. The union and it's reps have their own interests and that of their other members not that just of one employee.
I am sure all that could be right but I reiterate that the OP would be, at the very least, foolish to go into a disciplinary hearing - especially one that could lead to dismissal - without being accompanied by someone with experience and training in the procedures concerned.Whilst a lawyer can not be present at the hearing, he / she may have been able to give the OP 1) a written statement to read out at the hearing and then hand in - this could ensure that any statement of apology / contrition / remorse and offer of repayment is contained within the record of the meeting. This may help in either the first decision or certainly if the decision goes to appeal giving the person undertaking the second hearing factual evidence. 2) guidance on anything they must include or must not say in the hearing.
I have rang around for solicitors advice although last week but they not available to see me till mid this week, and some said they will get back but didn’t .You should almost always be able to take an external lawyer into a disciplinary meeting - in the capacity of a witness. It is normal procedure to take a workplace colleague or union rep into such a meeting, but it would be unwise for any employer to refuse to admit a qualified lawyer acting purely as a witness as an employment tribunal is likely to take a severe view. Obviously a witness is just that though, and may quietly take notes, but not generally comment or offer advice. It is incredibly rare for that to occur, not least because of cost, but is a position I occasionally advocate, because it can most definitely cause an employer to "reconsider" their position, especially if they think there's an increased potential for a claim afterwards.
Independent legal advice should always be sought, and most firms will offer a short consultation free of charge, so why not give it a go anyway? Your union is not independent, nor is your employer. Both will act in a manner that suits their own cause and agenda.
For a free 20-30 min consultation with an employment lawyer (by telephone or video conference), 8 pages of this forum thread could have been avoided!
But I’m thinking how can I prove this?I have rang around for solicitors advice although last week but they not available to see me till mid this week, and some said they will get back but didn’t .
really appreciate all your advice on here guys, but I listened to every single advice on here...including facing the hearing tomorrow
The spouse actually drops off my little one at the grand parents out for childcare, care for them for few hours because been driving to work by car by her sister she does thesame on her way back
Would this still be referred to as going to and from work?
Even though she stops by for about an hour or 2 before heading to work...
Just thinking as this only just occur to me, I could use this as a bases for argument... but not sure
I agree with this FWIW. It may be a lot of money but it's a lot less money than losing your job (and still probably being pursued for the money, or your wife being pursued for it).I think at this late stage, after your wife has admitted to the revenue team in her statement that she was commuting - that if you argue that she wasn't commuting, it will simply result in them finding against you and dismissing you
I know it's a lot of money, but the only way I can see any resolution and any possibility of you keeping your job is if you offer to repay it tomorrow.
Again, I never claimed he should take a solicitor to a disciplinary proceeding.When it comes to representation in a disciplinary hearing only one of those is an option.
@Hanson - that doesn't mean you have to have a cheque ready to hand over, but if you can show that you are making arrangements to repay the money it will go a long way.I know it's a lot of money, but the only way I can see any resolution and any possibility of you keeping your job is if you offer to repay it tomorrow.
You have been looking at this through the wrong lens.I feel bad and I think it’s really worth the fight!
Guy you might misinterpret what I meant I only just asked for my union rep to ask if the manager would accept my resignation and he came back and said yes.
I have now told them I will go ahead with the hearing tomorrow
I have been on the phone with my rep all this while and he’s just been unsupportive and only asking the I provide proof that I have done all I could to stop this misuse which he knows I haven’t got, what proof could I provide when I was in a bad state in a Rocky marriage and infact I had to since to have detected any misuse was made on the pass
I agree that there's little defence against a charge of gross misconduct, the battle is going to be convincing management that there was no malign intent - the OP, having confirmed that his wife started buying tickets rather than using the pass, assumed that she continued to do so and was unaware than she had started using the pass again.Ultimately, you are in a big pickle. I'm sympathetic, because dealing with that situation is not easy at all, and you do not have to be a bad person to have fallen foul of the rules. I am one of the few people in the thread, however, who think your defence against gross misconduct charges is very weak (especially as there is an £8,000 fraud and loss to the railway on the end of it too).
The dilemma here is if the OP doubles down on “no really, I swear I told my wife about the terms very clearly” etc - it just switches the focus onto her. Only the OP will be able to resolve that dilemma himself.I agree that there's little defence against a charge of gross misconduct, the battle is going to be convincing management that there was no malign intent - the OP, having confirmed that his wife started buying tickets rather than using the pass, assumed that she continued to do so and was unaware than she had started using the pass again.
He doesn't need to push her any further under the bus than she already is. "I gave her the pass when the relationship was still functional. When the relationship broke down, she started buying her own tickets. It never occurred to me that she started using the pass again." He's not stating anything more than he already has, but it explains why he didn't ask for the pass to be removed.The dilemma here is if the OP doubles down on “no really, I swear I told my wife about the terms very clearly” etc - it just switches the focus onto her. Only the OP will be able to resolve that dilemma himself.
Unless it went spectacularly badly I doubt the OP would be able to give a useful update. I'd expect it will be a couple days at least before they get an outcome.Any word how the meeting went today
No! Got an outcome same day, however it becomes formal in writing in couple of daysUnless it went spectacularly badly I doubt the OP would be able to give a useful update. I'd expect it will be a couple days at least before they get an outcome.
Hmm... I don't know about your company's policy but in most organisations I've been involved with they never gave a decision on the day. It was always taken away to be reviewed by HR and a director or above to make sure that all the I and T's had been dotted and crossed.No! Got an outcome same day, however it becomes formal in writing in couple of days
I second this suggestion.It may well be time to get some legal advice.
They only need to have adjourned for sufficient time to make a decision based on all the evidence presented beforehand and any evidence or further info presented at the meeting. It could feasibly take less than a day. Only if there was no adjournment could the company be considered to have made up their minds beforehand. This would potentially be unfair but I am not a lawyer.Hmm... I don't know about your company's policy but in most organisations I've been involved with they never gave a decision on the day. It was always taken away to be reviewed by HR and a director or above to make sure that all the I and T's had been dotted and crossed.
Sorry to hear that it didn't go your way but it's still, in my mind at least, better to know that you did everything you could than be left with a lingering "what if".
I second this suggestion.
I wasn't suggesting taking legal advice purely on the speed of the decision, but as general advice to see if the company has followed employment law to the required standard.They only need to have adjourned for sufficient time to make a decision based on all the evidence presented beforehand and any evidence or further info presented at the meeting. It could feasibly take less than a day.
Sorry to hear all this Hanson - had been thinking of you today as it would not have been a nice ordeal. Well done for what you did.From my understanding based on the investigation which has been checked already by HR or higher ups not sure who, the recommendations and charges are there already therefore I had to provide facts to over turn them with hard solid proofs which I don’t have much; as in this circumstances was very difficult to provide, all I just kept hearing was-it was your responsibility and other similar things along that lines then with the cost incurred!, which when mentioned I then offered to pay it all back since I am been done for failed responsibility but was not enough...
I was waiting for about few hours + then got the outcome of the meeting
rep said to me hard and new evidences were what I needed as my circumstances weren’t enough to justify the misuse.
Email I sent to stop the pass, the company not been able to provide acknowledge slip hat I signed and something similar would have been able to get a lesser severe outcome... just felt the policies were directly targeted at disregarding the circumstances surrounding the case