Misuse of the word 'TUBE'

[jopsuk]

"tube" is shorter; people are lazy. You'll just have to live with this!

 

[jon0844]

I really don't see an issue. Anyone in London, whether resident, tourist or commuter for the day, is likely to refer to anything on the Tube map as 'the tube'.

As the tube trains themselves do, there's a supposed distinction between the tube lines and 'National Rail' being the 'railway'. In the past, this has probably made sense for a range of reasons - from branding to ticketing (when Oyster PAYG came in, it was also useful to have the obvious split between tube lines that did take PAYG and rail services that did not).

The grey area comes in with things like London Overground, which I doubt people call the tube (as the name 'Overground=railway' conflicts with 'Underground=tube') and when National Rail services are included on the Tube map.

But, hey, just about everyone will understand someone talking about the tube - and if they have a Travelcard then it really doesn't matter at all, as long as they don't go beyond their zones.

 

[announcements]

I must say, I dislike the inconsistency when TfL say "the Tube, London Overground and DLR" in their press releases. It should be "London Underground, Overground and DLR"

 

[HSTEd]

I must say, I dislike the inconsistency when TfL say "the Tube, London Overground and DLR" in their press releases. It should be "London Underground, Overground and DLR"

In 30 years hopefully overground and possibly DLR will have developed some vernacular name that fits (DLR has been a very minor service for most londoners until relatively recently and LO is brand new).

 

[jon0844]

I think people already refer to the tube and Overground.

E.g. Take the tube to Highbury & Islington and then Overground to Shoreditch...

People in London also seem to refer to rail services in London as 'Overground' too, so there might be some confusion there - but isn't the long term plan to have all rail services into London - bar Intercity and outer suburban services - to became part of London Overground anyway? If so, the problem is solved.

 

[tbtc]

I really don't see an issue. Anyone in London, whether resident, tourist or commuter for the day, is likely to refer to anything on the Tube map as 'the tube'.

As the tube trains themselves do, there's a supposed distinction between the tube lines and 'National Rail' being the 'railway'. In the past, this has probably made sense for a range of reasons - from branding to ticketing (when Oyster PAYG came in, it was also useful to have the obvious split between tube lines that did take PAYG and rail services that did not).

The grey area comes in with things like London Overground, which I doubt people call the tube (as the name 'Overground=railway' conflicts with 'Underground=tube') and when National Rail services are included on the Tube map

I wonder how people will see Crossrail? It's an underground line through the middle of the city (unlike London Overground), so will people consider it to be another line of "the Tube"?

(by "people" I mean the general public and not enthusiasts/ staff who know about the differences between such things)

 

[maniacmartin]

I live in London but am originally from the North.

I call anything operated by London Underground the tube (including deep-level and cut-and-cover lines).

London Overground is indeed a grey area, and a stupid name. My mother who is not a London resident, calls all National Rail lines "overground"! I don't think the general public consider LO to be a TOC or a part of National Rail. To them it is London Underground running full-sized trains.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder how people will see Crossrail?

That's a very good question.

I'd like to think that given how long it has been talked about in the media, and anyone working near the route will have seen the work being done and the branding - that when it starts to run, it will actually be called Crossrail and not tube, overground, railway or anything.

I might be wrong, but like people refer to Eurostar and Heathrow Express, I do think Crossrail will be called by its name.

 

[tbtc]

That's a very good question.

I'd like to think that given how long it has been talked about in the media, and anyone working near the route will have seen the work being done and the branding - that when it starts to run, it will actually be called Crossrail and not tube, overground, railway or anything.

I might be wrong, but like people refer to Eurostar and Heathrow Express, I do think Crossrail will be called by its name.

From my limited understanding (living in Yorkshire, I don't get down to That London regularly) people tend to refer to "Thameslink" as a separate brand (in the way that you say they do about Heathrow Express), so maybe Crossrail will be another stand alone name.

However whilst Thameslink is clearly a longer distance route outside London (Brighton to Bedford), Crossrail won't go that much further than some Underground lines - I wonder whether it's shorter nature (and better frequency etc) will have people thinking its a new Underground route?

I guess we'll find out in a few years time.

 

[announcements]

London Overground is indeed a grey area, and a stupid name. My mother who is not a London resident, calls all National Rail lines "overground"!

Yes, I know plenty who do that, some even using the term "overland". I always think it's safer just to say "mainline services"

I don't think the general public consider LO to be a TOC or a part of National Rail. To them it is London Underground running full-sized trains.

This is due to the way TfL promote things, always treating the Overground and NR as separate, even though the Overground is part of NR! For instance, the on-board train announcements will say "change for London Overground and National Rail services" which leads people to believe they are two different entities. Again, there isn't a problem here on the Northern line at stations such as Euston because it announces "mainline intercity and suburban rail services" - the 'suburban' part covering LO.

 

[Oswyntail]

... I always think it's safer just to say "mainline services" ....

But that is usually contrasted with "branch line services"

 

[Nym]

At Euston it actually states Overground seperately, as does the S stock at Euston Square, C69/C77 stock states mainline and suburban rail services though...

 

[announcements]

At Euston it actually states Overground seperately, as does the S stock at Euston Square, C69/C77 stock states mainline and suburban rail services though...

You're right that the Victoria line states the Overground separately but I was referring to the Northern line, which doesn't. The Northern line is the only line so state "mainline intercity and suburban rail services". The C67/77 uses the conventional "London Overground" and "National rail services"

 

[maniacmartin]

On the Overground itself, you hear "change for National Rail services" if I recall correctly. The line car diagrams on TfL services also show the National Rail logo and Overground as separate entities.

 

[Tiny Tim]

If you want to be really pedantic 'The Tube' is a contraction of The Twopenny Tube' and referred only to the Central Line when it was opened with a single-price ticket of two pence.

People will use or adapt words as they see fit, language evolves.

Whist I'm making a post here perhaps someone could help me. I've looked very carefully at the Tube map but I can't seem to find Bakerloo. Was it one of the stations that closed?

 

[Fred26]

If you want to be really pedantic 'The Tube' is a contraction of The Twopenny Tube' and referred only to the Central Line when it was opened with a single-price ticket of two pence.

People will use or adapt words as they see fit, language evolves.

Whist I'm making a post here perhaps someone could help me. I've looked very carefully at the Tube map but I can't seem to find Bakerloo. Was it one of the stations that closed?

It's an amalgamation of Baker Street and Waterloo.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

People will use or adapt words as they see fit, language evolves.

Whist I'm making a post here perhaps someone could help me. I've looked very carefully at the Tube map but I can't seem to find Bakerloo. Was it one of the stations that closed?

Looks like the evolving language there has taken you by surprise!

 

[LexyBoy]

However whilst Thameslink is clearly a longer distance route outside London (Brighton to Bedford), Crossrail won't go that much further than some Underground lines - I wonder whether it's shorter nature (and better frequency etc) will have people thinking its a new Underground route?

Crossrail won't go any further out than the Tube, Maidenhead is its furthest point from London, which is the same distance from Charing Cross as is Chesham (25 miles). Unless of course it's extended to Reading (37 miles).

I think it will feel sufficiently like a "proper train" to prevent many people thinking it's an Underground route, but I think in large part it will depend on how the stations are presented. The mock-ups I've seen do look very like oversized Tube stations and of course all the underground stations will be interchanges with the Tube.

 

[Tiny Tim]

It's an amalgamation of Baker Street and Waterloo.

Looks like the evolving language there has taken you by surprise!

I'm glad to see that people are paying attention.

Happy Christmas. And a Gay New Year.

Am I even allowed to say that?

And that's how language evolves.

 

[Dennis C]

I'm glad to see that people are paying attention.

Happy Christmas. And a Gay New Year.

Am I even allowed to say that?

And that's how language evolves.

I take your point about evolve, but to quote monty python, to completely change the meaning of words such as tube and gay is “very silly”.

 

[snail]

This is due to the way TfL promote things, always treating the Overground and NR as separate, even though the Overground is part of NR!

Not all of it though, isn't the East London Line part of the TfL infrastructure (partly running on ex-BR lines)?

 

[transmanche]

On the Overground itself, you hear "change for National Rail services" if I recall correctly. The line car diagrams on TfL services also show the National Rail logo and Overground as separate entities.

And at stations, only the LO logo is shown - the NR 'double-arrow' has been removed.

If you want to be really pedantic 'The Tube' is a contraction of The Twopenny Tube' and referred only to the Central Line when it was opened with a single-price ticket of two pence.

That doesn't seem to make sense. As the word 'tube' in that phrase is used in the same sense as 'tube' is on its own! It's more likely that the CLR was called the 'twopenny tube' to highlight the fact it was a tube and it had a flat fare.

Bear in mind, the word 'tube' wasn't specific to London in the early days. What is now known as PATH (running under the Hudson River, between New York and New Jersey) started out as the Hudson Tubes. And you can still see an old tiled sign on the NY Subway, directing you 'To the Hudson Tubes'.

Being that so much of London's tube network was constructed with American money, it wouldn't surprise me if the term originated there and was imported to London; like many other American usages (e.g. car, motorman).

 

[announcements]

And at stations, only the LO logo is shown - the NR 'double-arrow' has been removed.

You'll be interested to see this: North Greenwich's Westbound Jubilee line diagrams.

 

[transmanche]

You'll be interested to see this: North Greenwich's Westbound Jubilee line diagrams.

And it's got an out-of-date DLR logo too. Doubtless when that sign gets replaced, it won't have the NR logo on it - just like the maps on the trains.

I was actually referring to the signs at London Overground stations, like the transition here at Camden Road.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Being that so much of London's tube network was constructed with American money, it wouldn't surprise me if the term originated there and was imported to London; like many other American usages (e.g. car, motorman).

That's a very interesting idea, I wonder if C.T. Yerkes introduced the word 'tube'. It seems that the first use of 'Twopenny Tube' was in 1900, coinciding with the arrival of Yerkes in London.

 

[AndyLandy]

It's true that the creation of the Overground brand has really muddied the waters with regards to what you call the various bits of London transport.

I use "Underground" and "Tube" interchangeably, and will explicitly refer to "deep level" if I mean the actual tubes. I refer to DLR and Overground as such, and will refer to mainline services as National Rail or abbreviated as NR. Most people know what I'm talking about.

 

[John55]

That's a very interesting idea, I wonder if C.T. Yerkes introduced the word 'tube'. It seems that the first use of 'Twopenny Tube' was in 1900, coinciding with the arrival of Yerkes in London.

The word tube was first applied to the City & South London Railway well before the Central London Railway opened. There were all sorts of names for the C&SLR but the one which struck long term was the tube.

Incidently the general adoption of Underground came about before the first world war when the 3 companies operating the network (but excluding the Metropolitam) adopted the word to jointly market the network.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

When I first properly used the tube circa 2006 time, the term tube had me confused because it made me think that all tube trains are perfectly tube shaped and circle at the front and they were always packed full of people. When the train came, I was immediately surprised how square from a circle it looked. Personally I refer to it as the underground or tube if just quickly referring to it

 

[Dennis C]

When I first properly used the tube circa 2006 time, the term tube had me confused because it made me think that all tube trains are perfectly tube shaped and circle at the front and they were always packed full of people. When the train came, I was immediately surprised how square from a circle it looked. Personally I refer to it as the underground or tube if just quickly referring to it

I still think staff and enthusiasts should use the proper definition.

 

[jon91]

So you'd recommend an enthusiast referring to the District Line as sub-surface when explaining to someone who doesn't have an inkling of a clue to the differences what train to catch to get somewhere?

Horses for courses I think.