MML Thameslink to London via Abbey Line

[Farigiraf]

I am looking to purchase the following ticket which I want to combine with a Z1-6 travelcard for a journey:
Elstree & Borehamwood to London Undergrnd Zones 4-6

Anytime Day Single

Is this valid via St Albans City, Abbey, and Watford Junction?
TIA

 

[jfollows]

No

I am looking to purchase the following ticket which I want to combine with a Z1-6 travelcard for a journey:
Elstree & Borehamwood to London Undergrnd Zones 4-6

Anytime Day Single

Is this valid via St Albans City, Abbey, and Watford Junction?
TIA

No

 

[Mike395]

You're already in Z6 at Elstree & Borehamwood, so that'll likely be priced the same as a Z4-6 single. In any case, as a rule of thumb you can't leave the Zonal area on (most) point-to-point tickets where the start and destination (be it named station or zone set) are within it. (there are a very small number of exceptions to this, but this is not one of them)

 

[JonathanH]

Trying to work out what the use case is for that ticket, with a change from railway to underground not before Zone 4 and ultimate destination in Zone 6. I think going to Elm Park, Hornchurch or Upminster Bridge changing at Barking and avoiding central London is the only obvious one.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Trying to work out what the use case is for that ticket, with a change from railway to underground not before Zone 4 and ultimate destination in Zone 6. I think going to Elm Park, Hornchurch or Upminster Bridge changing at Barking and avoiding central London is the only obvious one.

Looking at BRFares, it's priced on a point-to-point basis so you can't even use a Cluster to explain it.

The only use case I can think of would be a walk between Hendon NR and Hendon Central to take the Northern Line back towards Edgware...though there's no OSI defined between the two.

 

[Haywain]

though there's no OSI defined between the two.

OSIs are not applicable to paper tickets.

 

[Farigiraf]

You're already in Z6 at Elstree & Borehamwood, so that'll likely be priced the same as a Z4-6 single. In any case, as a rule of thumb you can't leave the Zonal area on (most) point-to-point tickets where the start and destination (be it named station or zone set) are within it. (there are a very small number of exceptions to this, but this is not one of them)

Thanks for confirming. Reason I asked in the first place was that RailUK Tickets/Trainsplit offered me this ticket for Elstree & Borehamwood to Harrow and Wealdstone (travelcard boundaries, as Hatch End/Headstone Lane aren't LNWR calls). Unless I use the 'if the journey planner gives you the itinerary, it's not your fault if it isn't valid' rule, what would the best ticket option for Elstree-Harrow Wealdstone via SAC/SAA?

 

[island]

You'll have considerable difficulty getting through the barriers at St Albans with that.

 

[MrJeeves]

offered me this ticket for Elstree & Borehamwood to Harrow and Wealdstone (travelcard boundaries, as Hatch End/Headstone Lane aren't LNWR calls)

For what it's worth, it's nothing to do with Travelcard boundaries. The site is proposing you take the service which calls at Harrow & Wealdstone and change tickets there as Harrow & Wealdstone is covered by both the Zones 4-6 ticket and the Travelcard.

Zonal boundaries only apply where both tickets' validity starts/ends at the same point, but the limit of validity on the Travelcard is not at Harrow & Wealdstone.

 

[jfollows]

As a point-to-point ticket, Elstree & Borehamwood to Harrow & Wealdstone is not allowed via Watford Junction because of the fare rule, only via West Hampstead and Willesden Junction.

 

[Haywain]

what would the best ticket option for Elstree-Harrow Wealdstone?

Contactless or Oyster, and travelling via West Hampstead and Willesden Junction, at a cost of £3.70 single. Or, if you already have a Travelcard, at no extra cost at all.

 

[MrJeeves]

As you're calculating the permitted route to a zonal destination (LU Zones 4-6), you take the first station within the zonal validity the train travels through (doesn't need to stop) as the intended destination for routeing. This would be Hatch End.

If you use the routeing point calculator, this shows that there were no NFM64 fares defined between Elstree and Hatch End, meaning that no mapped journeys are available. This leads only the direct train route and the shortest +3mi rule.

The shortest journey rule includes only rail legs, so any fixed links, tube, timetabled buses, ferries, flying saucers, etc are ignored.

In this case, the route via West Hampstead is 31.59 miles, but the journey to St Albans City, then Abbey to Hatch End totals to around 18 miles, making it clearly the shortest route, as a result TrainSplit provides it as a valid journey itinerary as it should, including on point to point journeys:

 

[bakerstreet]

OSIs are not applicable to paper tickets.

off topic from OP but OSI’s (out of station interchanges) are applicable to paper (magnetic) tickets, albeit a smaller selection.

Details here:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/out-of-station-interchanges.xlsx

 

[Farigiraf]

Contactless or Oyster, and travelling via West Hampstead and Willesden Junction, at a cost of £3.70 single. Or, if you already have a Travelcard, at no extra cost at all.

I meant specifically via St Albans, sorry. Edited the post.

As you're calculating the permitted route to a zonal destination (LU Zones 4-6), you take the first station within the zonal validity the train travels through (doesn't need to stop) as the intended destination for routeing. This would be Hatch End.

If you use the routeing point calculator, this shows that there were no NFM64 fares defined between Elstree and Hatch End, meaning that no mapped journeys are available. This leads only the direct train route and the shortest +3mi rule.

The shortest journey rule includes only rail legs, so any fixed links, buses, etc are ignored.

In this case, the route via West Hampstead is 31.59 miles, but the journey to St Albans City, then Abbey to Hatch End totals to around 18 miles, making it clearly the shortest route, as a result TrainSplit provides it as a valid journey itinerary as it should, including on point to point journeys:


View attachment 156589

Thanks for letting me know of this, I was quite used to using singles which restrict you a specific service so it crossed my mind. Only a 5 pound difference is a change in the usual fare skyrocket which comes with taking unorthodox routes (Although I know in this case it's because of Hatch End route validity)
Any reason why it suggested E&B to London Underground Z1-6 in the first place? Is it just a system glitch?

Edit: I have found that splitting (Elstree-SAC and SAA-Hatch End) is cheaper anyway, so I shouldn't expect any problems with staff.

 

[Haywain]

off topic from OP but OSI’s (out of station interchanges) are applicable to paper (magnetic) tickets, albeit a smaller selection.

Details here:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/out-of-station-interchanges.xlsx

Fair enough, although it confirms my belief that there is no OSI at Hendon.

 

[MrJeeves]

Thanks for letting me know of this, I was quite used to using singles which restrict you a specific service so it crossed my mind.

No worries! I was also very skeptical at first, but after discussing it with others we found it was valid. It doesn't mean you won't encounter issues on the journey from staff. It's certainly not a journey I would expect to be valid, and negative easements may be introduced to prevent this journey in the future.

 

[jfollows]

As you're calculating the permitted route to a zonal destination (LU Zones 4-6), you take the first station within the zonal validity the train travels through (doesn't need to stop) as the intended destination for routeing. This would be Hatch End.

Thank you for that comprehensive explanation.

 

[Haywain]

negative easements may be introduced to prevent this journey in the future

Introduced or tweaked, such as 700441:

Customers travelling from Carpenders Park, Bushey, Watford High Street, Watford Junction, Watford North, Garston, Bricket Wood, How Wood and Park Street to Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross West, Cricklewood, West Hampstead and Kentish Town in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via St Albans. This easement applies in both directions.

 

[MrJeeves]

Introduced or tweaked, such as 700441

I'm sure we'll see a post by kieron in coming days now...

National Routeing Guide update

Appears to have been updated again this week. The URL has changed, with a brief step by step guide of how to use it shown on the new web page. Thumbs up from me if it aids staff in understanding how to identify permitted routes - though of course, there is the hurdle of getting them to...

www.railforums.co.uk