Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[bramling]

Not heard anything internally as I work for one of the TOC's mentioned, but I will say that there are plenty of complaints when people are able to purchase tickets when the train is already full.....many people already think a seat comes automatically with any ticket. One of the TOC's booking systems blanks out services when they're fully reserved now with the reduced amount of reservations allowed.....

Management of expectations is the solution here, not removing the ability for people to travel.

 

[Mag_seven]

What is the point in making a big thing about frequency e.g. "Edinburgh to London every half hour throughout the day", if you can't just "turn up and go"? "Turn up and go" is a big selling point of a frequent service.

 

[gka472l]

Management of expectations is the solution here, not removing the ability for people to travel.

How would you suggest that's achieved then?? For instance, when faced with someone who has purchased a ticket of say over £90 just a few minutes earlier, and then seeing the train already full and standing, how would their expectation be managed?

 

[bramling]

How would you suggest that's achieved then?? For instance, when faced with someone who has purchased a ticket of say over £90 just a few minutes earlier, and then seeing the train already full and standing, how would their expectation be managed?

Make it quite clear that a ticket without reservation doesn’t guarantee a seat, or even being able to board the first choice of service.

In the same way that filling the car up with petrol doesn’t mean that I can drive to a given location and be guaranteed to find a parking space in my first-choice car park.

These things are a simple lesson in life experience.

 

[Kite159]

I would say compulsory reservations are a good idea for those trains which are expected to be busier than normal (Thursday before Easter Weekend, Monday on Bank holiday weekends etc), only to prevent scenes of mass overcrowding. The sort of services which I've seen before being pick up/set-down only for stations in England [i.e. London - Inverness/Aberdeen, pick-up only at York/Darlington/Newcastle)

However all the other services should be reservations recommended, with anybody travelling without a seat reservation knowing they could have to stand if the train is busy and the only seats left are undesirable. Having a coach marked solely as unreserved.

Example: A family from Grantham heading to London for a day trip, they know what time they are heading to London but are unsure what time they will be returning, so would book an open single back. Or people heading to London for football in a Cup match which could go into extra time/penalties if not decided after 90 minutes. Or even not knowing how long it will take to get from the football ground back to Kings Cross (or Euston). Both cases will have those people making multiple reservations to cover several options to get back home, which will reduce the number of seats available

 

[gka472l]

Make it quite clear that a ticket without reservation doesn’t guarantee a seat, or even being able to board the first choice of service.

In the same way that filling the car up with petrol doesn’t mean that I can drive to a given location and be guaranteed to find a parking space in my first-choice car park.

These things are a simple lesson in life experience.

Well, as someone who has used that line in the past, I can tell you that it goes down like a lead balloon with the person who is potentially going to have to stand for a couple of hours instead of getting a seat, which in my opinion, they should rightly expect on a longer distance service.....

 

[Watershed]

Well, as someone who has used that line in the past, I can tell you that it goes down like a lead balloon with the person who is potentially going to have to stand for a couple of hours instead of getting a seat, which in my opinion, they should rightly expect on a longer distance service.....

Well perhaps it does. But they are perfectly free to return to the ticket office and get a refund if they don't like it. And certainly other people shouldn't be prevented from standing just because that person doesn't want to.

Are you seriously suggesting they would prefer to arrive at the station to find a sign along the lines of that shown in post #238?

 

[Domh245]

I would say compulsory reservations are a good idea for those trains which are expected to be busier than normal (Thursday before Easter Weekend, Monday on Bank holiday weekends etc), only to prevent scenes of mass overcrowding. The sort of services which I've seen before being pick up/set-down only for stations in England [i.e. London - Inverness/Aberdeen, pick-up only at York/Darlington/Newcastle)

However all the other services should be reservations recommended, with anybody travelling without a seat reservation knowing they could have to stand if the train is busy and the only seats left are undesirable. Having a coach marked solely as unreserved.

I'd have said the opposite. Compulsory reservations are fine when you know that there's no danger of the capacity being exceeded, but it's those busiest times (and during disruption) where you start turning people away because you can't guarantee them a seat that makes the whole system look daft IMO.

I suppose it depends what you're trying to do - a system that avoids the 'bad press' of people standing in vestibules would go for your approach, a system that enables people to travel when they want would go for the opposite

 

[bramling]

Well, as someone who has used that line in the past, I can tell you that it goes down like a lead balloon with the person who is potentially going to have to stand for a couple of hours instead of getting a seat, which in my opinion, they should rightly expect on a longer distance service.....

I don’t think it’s a good shout to be basing everything on people who have a hissy-fit because they buy a ticket and then find others have had the same idea to travel at that particular time.

Yes I agree there should be some expectation of a seat on long-distance services. Availability of reservations and provision of sufficient capacity should go most of the way to making that a reality on the overwhelming majority of occasions. It is not the right course of action to ditch turn up and go travel as a means of completely nailing the remainder of this expectation and avoiding hissy-fits when people find that surprisingly enough other people also wish to travel at certain high-demand times.

It might go down as a lead balloon if they find they can’t get a seat, but that’s really a complaint that there’s insufficient capacity at the time they desire to travel. I’d bet the balloon would drop even faster if they were told they can’t travel at all - just wait for the “railway jobsworth stops family boarding train to see their relatives for Christmas” headlines.

And surely refunding tickets if people choose to abandon their journey rather than travel on a standing-only train would deal with the people who get the hump at being sold a ticket for a standing-only train?

 

[gka472l]

Well perhaps it does. But they are perfectly free to return to the ticket office and get a refund if they don't like it. And certainly other people shouldn't be prevented from standing just because that person doesn't want to.

Are you seriously suggesting they would prefer to arrive at the station to find a sign along the lines of that shown in post #238?

I would say most people *do not* want to stand. I can understand busy commuter services having standing, not longer distance though (and it's only 3 'Inter City' TOC's mentioned at the start of this thread). There just isn't unlimited capacity for everyone who might want to go at certain times (hence the pic in post #238) , so there needs to be a limit. I've personally worked a few shifts where it is touch and go whether we even had enough capacity on the final service to accommodate everyone waiting.....

 

[bramling]

I would say most people *do not* want to stand. I can understand busy commuter services having standing, not longer distance though (and it's only 3 'Inter City' TOC's mentioned at the start of this thread). There just isn't unlimited capacity for everyone who might want to go at certain times (hence the pic in post #238) , so there needs to be a limit. I've personally worked a few shifts where it is touch and go whether we even had enough capacity on the final service to accommodate everyone waiting.....

Where do you draw the line? Many Intercity journeys double up as commuter and/or inter-urban services for one or more parts of the journey.

This isn’t ideal, but it’s what we have on a capacity constrained railway.

 

[gka472l]

I don’t think it’s a good shout to be basing everything on people who have a hissy-fit because they buy a ticket and then find others have had the same idea to travel at that particular time.

Yes I agree there should be some expectation of a seat on long-distance services. Availability of reservations and provision of sufficient capacity should go most of the way to making that a reality on the overwhelming majority of occasions. It is not the right course of action to ditch turn up and go travel as a means of completely nailing the remainder of this expectation and avoiding hissy-fits when people find that surprisingly enough other people also wish to travel at certain high-demand times.

It might go down as a lead balloon if they find they can’t get a seat, but that’s really a complaint that there’s insufficient capacity at the time they desire to travel. I’d bet the balloon would drop even faster if they were told they can’t travel at all - just wait for the “railway jobsworth stops family boarding train to see their relatives for Christmas” headlines.

And surely refunding tickets if people choose to abandon their journey rather than travel on a standing-only train would deal with the people who get the hump at being sold a ticket for a standing-only train?

But people don't expect to be sold a ticket to stand.....they expect a seat. You only have to look at the Twitter feeds of the TOC's when people are on severely overcrowded trains so see them having a 'hissy fit'.

It's a topic that many of us are going to disagree on.......

Where do you draw the line? Many Intercity journeys double up as commuter and/or inter-urban services for one or more parts of the journey.

This isn’t ideal, but it’s what we have on a capacity constrained railway.

That's for the people who might implement it to sort out.....

 

[bramling]

But people don't expect to be sold a ticket to stand.....they expect a seat. You only have to look at the Twitter feeds of the TOC's when people are on severely overcrowded trains so see them having a 'hissy fit'.

It's a topic that many of us are going to disagree on.......

Sometimes in life we have to accept that it’s not always going to be possible to meet all our expectations, some of which are unrealistic.

Changing to a system which is going to disadvantage a great many realistic users to suit a minority with unrealistic / unreasonable expectations is not the way to go (IMO).

People are going to moan when they find themselves on a crowded train. Compulsory reservations won’t solve that if the cause of overcrowding is disruption, as is often the case. Griping about having to pay for a ticket seems to be more of a proxy for complaining that there’s too many people or not enough capacity.

 

[Watershed]

I would say most people *do not* want to stand. I can understand busy commuter services having standing, not longer distance though (and it's only 3 'Inter City' TOC's mentioned at the start of this thread). There just isn't unlimited capacity for everyone who might want to go at certain times (hence the pic in post #238) , so there needs to be a limit. I've personally worked a few shifts where it is touch and go whether we even had enough capacity on the final service to accommodate everyone waiting.....

Of course there is a limit. But unless there are proposals to introduce standing-only reservations, these changes mean a reduction in capacity, not an increase. That benefits no-one and certainly does not help increase revenue for the industry.

In fact this means that anyone who wants to sit down will have to wait longer at peak times, because all those who would have been prepared to stand will now also be forced to wait until there are trains with available seats.

The Twitter feeds of all TOCs are full of people complaining. Some are legitimate complaints; many others are from people with unrealistic expectations. Either way, the vocal minority of people who shake their fists on Twitter shouldn't inconvenience the majority that simply get on with life.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you reserve seats on several homeward trains to allow for an unpredictable finish time, which then means empty seats which cannot be used.

What you do is book the latest you will reasonably need then move it earlier if you need to. SNCF have exchange machines at TGV stations for that exact purpose.

Well, as someone who has used that line in the past, I can tell you that it goes down like a lead balloon with the person who is potentially going to have to stand for a couple of hours instead of getting a seat, which in my opinion, they should rightly expect on a longer distance service.....

The question is how that same person would react if told the trains were full for the rest of the day.

 

[Robertj21a]

So if I have my local, or All Lines Rover, I can't use these trains at all at short notice unless I make a reservation. That will certainly help me decide not to bother any more.
The car beckons!

 

[londonteacher]

Some people really do not like change. Things change. New things are tried. The world moves on.

Compulsory reservations will not be an issue on the majority of services as there is usually space. On busy services this will only help people travel comfortably.

It is also important to remember that this is not LNER doing this - this is the DfT who operate LNER so presumably part of the bigger plan to introduce this most likely on all intercity services.

So if I have my local, or All Lines Rover, I can't use these trains at all at short notice unless I make a reservation. That will certainly help me decide not to bother any more.
The car beckons!

It's simple. Make a reservation minutes before a service.

 

[Mack91]

So if I have my local, or All Lines Rover, I can't use these trains at all at short notice unless I make a reservation. That will certainly help me decide not to bother any more.
The car beckons!

I was thinking the same for rovers such as the West Yorkshire Rover, which LNER were part of pre-pandemic (I'm not sure when and how rovers will be reintroduced)

 

[Hadders]

Management of expectations is the solution here, not removing the ability for people to travel.

I agree.

What is the point in making a big thing about frequency e.g. "Edinburgh to London every half hour throughout the day", if you can't just "turn up and go"? "Turn up and go" is a big selling point of a frequent service.

Spot on.

Well, as someone who has used that line in the past, I can tell you that it goes down like a lead balloon with the person who is potentially going to have to stand for a couple of hours instead of getting a seat, which in my opinion, they should rightly expect on a longer distance service.....

All that is needed is for whoever sells the ticket, be it a website, app, ticket machine or human at a ticket office, to advise that there are no seats available on the train. You then have a choice:

- You may travel and will potentially have to stand
- You can try and obtain a reservation on a later train (this is of course a problem if all trains that day are fully reserved)
- You can choose not to travel

What an individual chooses to do will depend on individual circumstances. For example if I was travelling from Stevenage to Inverness I'd want a seat reservation and would probably amend my plans if I couldn't get one. On the other hand if I was travelling from Stevenage to Grantham I'd be more than prepared to stand if I couldn't get a reservation.

One thing I guarantee is the first whiff of disruption and it'll all fall down. For example if I'm travelling from Sandy to Edinburgh, travelling from Sandy to Peterborough with GTR, then LNER from Peterborough to Edinburgh. What happens if the GTR train is late and I miss my connection, but all the trains for the rest of the day are fully reserved?

Compulsory reservations sounds attractive but in reality it is a flawed concept given that in many cases 'inter-city' train services cater for both long and short distance journeys.

 

[londonteacher]

What you do is book the latest you will reasonably need then move it earlier if you need to. SNCF have exchange machines at TGV stations for that exact purpose.

Which would be a great way of doing so!

 

[Ianno87]

The Twitter feeds of all TOCs are full of people complaining. Some are legitimate complaints; many others are from people with unrealistic expectations. Either way, the vocal minority of people who shake their fists on Twitter shouldn't inconvenience the majority that simply get on with life.

Even so, that vocal minority punch above their weight publicity-wise in these days of social media sharing pictures of packed trains, which ends up reflecting badly on UK rail as a whole to the general population.

 

[43074]

It's simple. Make a reservation minutes before a service.

What if the services you wish to travel on are fully reserved? Particularly for journeys like Dunbar to Edinburgh or Alnmouth to Newcastle where the alternatives are far less frequent than the likes of London to Stevenage or Peterborough or between York and Newcastle.

 

[Hadders]

Which would be a great way of doing so!

Except when all the trains for the rest of the day are fully reserved.

Who is going to check if passengers have reservations? Granted it could be done at King's Cross but it won't happen at places like Stevenage, or even Peterborough. Would take too long, and would need too many staff to do it effectively.

 

[DB]

Some people really do not like change. Things change. New things are tried. The world moves on.

Compulsory reservations will not be an issue on the majority of services as there is usually space. On busy services this will only help people travel comfortably.

It is also important to remember that this is not LNER doing this - this is the DfT who operate LNER so presumably part of the bigger plan to introduce this most likely on all intercity services.


It's simple. Make a reservation minutes before a service.

So say I'm working in Doncaster on a Friday and need to get back to York but can't predict the time. Not bothered whether I get a seat.

Do you think it reasonable that I might have to wait 3 hours at the station to do this 25 minute journey or more because all the trains are booked solid?

I assume you don't work in a job where this sort of thing happens...

Even so, that vocal minority punch above their weight publicity-wise in these days of social media sharing pictures of packed trains, which ends up reflecting badly on UK rail as a whole to the general population.

The vocal minority who will complain If they are refused teavel will be larger...

But people don't expect to be sold a ticket to stand.....they expect a seat.

But given the choice of stand or don't go, most will stand.

It's unclear why you think that those who complain about standing would accept it and not complain if told they couldn't travel ar all, or would have to wait 3 hours.

 

[43074]

Spot on.

How many genuinely "turn up and go" customers are there between London and Edinburgh though?

The problems with compulsory reservations are more for local journeys (e.g. Doncaster to Leeds or Durham to Newcastle) where LNER trains at those points in their journeys are carrying a fairly high number of local passengers and contributing quite a significant amount of capacity to those flows across the day. How does it solve anything if it just causes overcrowding on the next Northern or TPE behind?

 

[Ianno87]

So say I'm working in Doncaster on a Friday and need to get back to York but can't predict the time. Not bothered whether I get a seat.

Do you think it reasonable that I might have to wait 3 hours at the station to do this 25 minute journey or more because all the trains are booked solid?

I assume you don't work in a job where this sort of thing happens...

Depends how often that actually happens in practice that you can't rebook to an earlier train? If it was only once or twice a year on the busiest days, then it might well be "reasonable".

The vocal minority who will complain If they are refused teavel will be larger...

Or they'll just see "Sold Out" and shrug their shoulders and accept it as one of those things in life.

But given the choice of stand or don't go, most will stand.

It's unclear why you think that those who complain about standing would accept it and not complain if told they couldn't travel ar all, or would have to wait 3 hours.

No, you would set expectation before even attempting to travel that the train is full.

 

[Hadders]

How many genuinely "turn up and go" customers are there between London and Edinburgh though?

Probably not many. But many passengers will value flexibility of being able to travel earlier or later.

The problems with compulsory reservations are more for local journeys (e.g. Doncaster to Leeds or Durham to Newcastle) where LNER trains at those points in their journeys are carrying a fairly high number of local passengers and contributing quite a significant amount of capacity to those flows across the day. How does it solve anything if it just causes overcrowding on the next Northern or TPE behind?

LNER aren't just a long distance operator, they are also a local train operator between some stations.

 

[RHolmes]

Or they'll just see "Sold Out" and shrug their shoulders and accept it as one of those things in life.

I’d love to know what customer/passenger service role you’ve worked in where the general public is THAT understanding

 

[2192]

It is actually the opposite that is more of an issue though - people reserving between Doncaster and York who are happy to stand then preventing someone else from booking all the way from London and Scotland.

Or, as an article quoted in Modern Railways a few months ago, not being able to reserve a seat Plymouth to Derby, because lots of Bristol commuters reserved seats Temple Meads to Parkway. They were able to travel however, and the commuters failed to claim their seats as they had gone on earlier trains because of late running.

 

[Ianno87]

I’d love to know what customer/passenger service role you’ve worked in where the general public is THAT understanding

Dealt with it when I worked in a supermarket. The proportion of customers who (face to face) would get genuinely upset/angry if their particular brand of bread (or whatever) was unavailable was very tiny indeed.