Modern trains and modern lighting

[hwl]

Does the higher level of lighting also help to provide clearer images for the onboard CCTV, giving a better contrast?

It does indeed.




I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the links between bright lighting, safety and perception of safety* especially for the just over 50% of the population that is under represent on the forum...

*Plenty of research showing that bright lighting is viewed by women as being far better than CCTV for ensuring their safety.

 

[bramling]

It does indeed.




I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the links between bright lighting, safety and perception of safety* especially for the just over 50% of the population that is under represent on the forum...

*Plenty of research showing that bright lighting is viewed by women as being far better than CCTV for ensuring their safety.

A bit of a false perception though. People may feel better with bright lighting, but one wonders how much of a different it *actually* makes.

Personally I feel safer with dim lighting, as it fosters a more relaxed atmosphere.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

It’s a bugbear of mine as I prefer subdued, however there’s a number of reasons:

* It’s a good way to get better scores for ambience, as brighter lighting seemingly alters perceptions on cleanliness

* Improves CCTV output

* Cheap LED retrofits (this is more harshness than brightness).

Having said all this, there seems to be a divide among the population. My building at work has had some ferocious arguments over lighting levels, with there seeming to be a split between those who like dim and subdued, versus those who seem to want the full dentist chair ambience.

Professor John Mandaljevic of Loughborough University is really good on this, he was on radio 4 open country a while ago. Designing buildings right can make a great difference, just making apparently small changes like the angle of the windows. Natural light is the thing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheap LEDs are a big part of the issue - you can have fairly bright lighting without it needing to be direct and daylight white (see FGW HSTs). I too don't find the IETs too bad lighting wise. The key is indirect, and you can do some nice effects using spots.

 

[hwl]

A bit of a false perception though. People may feel better with bright lighting, but one wonders how much of a different it *actually* makes.

Personally I feel safer with dim lighting, as it fosters a more relaxed atmosphere.

It apparently has large effect on journey choices and route to station choices too.
It shows the rail is thinking about personal safety to some of the population.


Also see non reach-around seat designs (now a requirement for new/retrofit.

Cheap LEDs are a big part of the issue - you can have fairly bright lighting without it needing to be direct and daylight white (see FGW HSTs). I too don't find the IETs too bad lighting wise. The key is indirect, and you can do some nice effects using spots.

Daylight i.e. natural is part of the safety perception not just brightness.

Most of the cheap ones aren't daylight but "cool" shades.

 

[DelW]

As stated on the Night Riviera thread ages ago, there are now eu regulations reagardling light levels on trains. No choice in the matter.

Since no-one else has picked up on this, I'll bite ... if these are actually EU regulations (as opposed to coming from one of the other pan-European bodies), do they still apply in Britain? I wouldn't want to go back into endless arguments about the B-word, but "taking back control" was supposedly one of the "benefits"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since no-one else has picked up on this, I'll bite ... if these are actually EU regulations (as opposed to coming from one of the other pan-European bodies), do they still apply in Britain? I wouldn't want to go back into endless arguments about the B-word, but "taking back control" was supposedly one of the "benefits"

At Brexit the applicable bodies of EU law were replicated in UK law.

Daylight i.e. natural is part of the safety perception not just brightness.

It's exceptionally unpleasant. Who* has that in their home?

Most of the cheap ones aren't daylight but "cool" shades.

Some are slightly warmer than daylight but they are all pretty stark and unpleasant.

* Other than people with SAD and recently immigrated Asian people who are used to "daylight" lighting as it's the norm over there.

 

[DarloRich]

yet train passengers are expected to endure blinding extream light as soon as the Sun goes down?

I think you might need a trip to the eye hospital if you are that sensitive. I cant say I have ever experienced such "blinding extreme light". I notice you find the pendolino pleasant. I find the lighting dingy. Is the issue the quality of the light fitting?

 

[DelW]

At Brexit the applicable bodies of EU law were replicated in UK law.

Which (on train lighting) could presumably be repealed if we so wished. Although possibly Parliament has more important matters to deal with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which (on train lighting) could presumably be repealed if we so wished. Although possibly Parliament has more important matters to deal with.

I would imagine so. That's why it was done that way - bring it all into UK law, then in due course over time change the bits we don't like.

 

[43096]

It will be interesting to see what the lighting levels are like in the seated vehicles of ÖBB’s new Nightjet stock. Presumably it will be subject to the same standards.

 

[TRAX]

It is indeed a pity that we aren't using the superior capabilities of LED technology to actually have some flexibility in lighting: heat, colour, intensity, etc.

 

[hwl]

It is indeed a pity that we aren't using the superior capabilities of LED technology to actually have some flexibility in lighting: heat, colour, intensity, etc.

One of the problems is the use of phosphors and lack of diffusion (and hence polarisation or not) in cheaper LED installation, this affects the harshness far more than most people realise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of the problems is the use of phosphors and lack of diffusion (and hence polarisation or not) in cheaper LED installation, this affects the harshness far more than most people realise.

Indirect lighting is best, have it shine upwards fron the conduit onto a white section of ceiling.

 

[kels430]

The EMR class 222 services out of St Pancras on a night sit at the platform in “energy saving mode” which turns off the plug sockets and dims the lights to a very low level before turning the lights back up as they depart.

 

[Skie]

The Pendolino lighting is nice and subdued, whilst still being safe for moving around, but I’d find it even better if it gradually brightened up closer to arrival at a terminus. It really can make you a bit drowsy when it’s later on or shortly after food.

Late night journeys don’t end when you get off the train, so not feeling drowsy when you arrive would be a bonus.

 

[hwl]

Indirect lighting is best, have it shine upwards from the conduit onto a white section of ceiling.

With the reflection of the white ceiling mostly horizontally polarising the light (as water or sand also do), polarisation can also be achieved directly e.g. with the large LED panel with the right materials infront of the LEDS.
The indirect is doing some cunning physics without most people realising.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I hate dark buses, but there turning off the lights is surely for the driver's benefit, not the passengers'? People want to do things on trains where it's nice to have good lighting, like reading. I wouldn't sit in near-darkness in my living room; why would I want to do it on the train? It might be helpful for sleeping, but I don't want to sleep too well on trains - I might miss my stop! (Obviously an actual sleeper train is different.)

 

[py_megapixel]

I hate dark buses, but there turning off the lights is surely for the driver's benefit, not the passengers'? People want to do things on trains where it's nice to have good lighting, like reading. I wouldn't sit in near-darkness in my living room; why would I want to do it on the train? It might be helpful for sleeping, but I don't want to sleep too well on trains - I might miss my stop! (Obviously an actual sleeper train is different.)

There's a difference between just firing as much light as possible all over the carriage (a la IET or Northern refurb Sprinter), and having a nicely designed lighting system which provides lots of illumination while still not feeling harsh.

Take Transpennine's new Mk5a coaches, for example. For all the flaws they have (unreliability, rough ride, poor window alignment and cramped vestibules), the lighting design is very nice. Most of the lighting is concealed behind, and therefore diffused by, a panel above the luggage racks, which are glass - this provides a good quantity of illumination to the seats without feeling overpowering. It certainly doesn't make me feel sleepy or give me any difficulty reading a book. However, the lights coming in from the sides like that do make the aisle a little dark - so the designers have thoughtfully used spotlights to the centre of the carriage to counteract this without shining massively into the seats. That is an example of how it should be done.

My personal opinion is that the Pendolinos are a bit too dark, but the principle of their design is too very nice.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Plenty of research showing that bright lighting is viewed by women as being far better than CCTV for ensuring their safety.

Must admit I hadn’t considered that aspect, but makes sense.

 

[yorksrob]

It depends what your definition of "extreme" is. Mostly I think it's fine on modern trains, the FGW HSTs standing out as having been (literally) glaring exceptions.

Getting gooey eyed and nostalgic about tungsten lighting doesn't really help, though. Most tungsten-lit carriages were gloomy as hell and could be quite depressing to travel in.

Well, it might be a personal taste thing. I also find the gentler colour schemes of wood and formica in older carriage designs, a lot pleasanter than the clinically white walls that seem to be in vogue at the moment. The pre-refurbshed state of Northern's 158's as opposed to their post refurbished state is another example of this.

Coaches (like aircraft) have individual reading lights as well

Maybe in first class carriages with reading lights, the main lighting could be dimmed a bit at night, so that it's bright enough for safety, but not so glaring for those who want to doze or watch TV on their devices

Some train carriages have, and have in the past had a gentler lighting lighting scheme for the whole carriage with individual reading lights for those who want more light. This would be preferable.

I think you might need a trip to the eye hospital if you are that sensitive. I cant say I have ever experienced such "blinding extreme light". I notice you find the pendolino pleasant. I find the lighting dingy. Is the issue the quality of the light fitting?

I hate dark buses, but there turning off the lights is surely for the driver's benefit, not the passengers'? People want to do things on trains where it's nice to have good lighting, like reading. I wouldn't sit in near-darkness in my living room; why would I want to do it on the train? It might be helpful for sleeping, but I don't want to sleep too well on trains - I might miss my stop! (Obviously an actual sleeper train is different.)

I just don't find travelling in what is effectively a giant flourescent tube, relaxing. I like to be able to have some view out of the window even at night and such conditions make that impossible.

 

[Mikey C]

I'd forgotten (it's been so long since I went on one) that the Pendolinos have reading lights, even in standard, so there's no need to make the general interior lighting really bright

 

[Journeyman]

I suspect Pendolinos probably have "grandfather rights" of some sort regarding the lighting, i.e. it's allowed to continue operating, but you may not be allowed to build something like that new.

The personal security angle is a very important one, and given the issues around safety for lone travellers etc, I think that just about trumps any aesthetic concerns.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect Pendolinos probably have "grandfather rights" of some sort regarding the lighting, i.e. it's allowed to continue operating, but you may not be allowed to build something like that new.

The personal security angle is a very important one, and given the issues around safety for lone travellers etc, I think that just about trumps any aesthetic concerns.

If it was really that vital for personal safety to have extreme lighting, they need to have it on coaches and planes as well.

 

[Bikeman78]

Elf' and Safety innit?

No doubt because passengers are more likely to walk around on a moving train, the lighting must be suitable and allow for this without causing potential trip hazards if it's too dark (luggage in aisles, walking to buffet, trolley services, walking to toilet etc...)

I expect that on a train, it's neccessary for passengers to be able to evacuate quickly using the emergency windows (which would require passengers seeing where they are) whereas on a coach the driver can simply give instructions there and then (can't rely on announcements only for trains due to passengers with hearing difficulties etc...)

I expect this is the reasoning anyway. Whether it's actually needed is another thing entirely, but now more than ever, we life in a 'zero-risk' society.

Planes have dim lights on overnight flights. People seem to manage to make it to the toilet without too much problem.

 

[Journeyman]

If it was really that vital for personal safety to have extreme lighting, they need to have it on coaches and planes as well.

It's not extreme, and planes and coaches are completely different to trains. Planes have a high number of staff in the cabin, and are legally obliged to do so. Also, the identity of every person on board is known.

Coaches can generally be fairly closely monitored by drivers as well, as they're smaller vehicles than trains. There's also the issue of reflection on the windscreen, as already mentioned.

You've never been a woman travelling alone at night, have you? Have you any idea how terrifying most women find this?

 

[Bikeman78]

It's not extreme, and planes and coaches are completely different to trains. Planes have a high number of staff in the cabin, and are legally obliged to do so. Also, the identity of every person on board is known.

Coaches can generally be fairly closely monitored by drivers as well, as they're smaller vehicles than trains. There's also the issue of reflection on the windscreen, as already mentioned.

You've never been a woman travelling alone at night, have you? Have you any idea how terrifying most women find this?

I think the perception was (and is) worse than the reality. 1980s BR was hardly the New York subway. I recall my granny telling me that a railway carriage was statistically one of the safest places in the world. She lived and travelled alone for most of her life. She didn't seem concerned.

 

[yorksrob]

You've never been a woman travelling alone at night, have you? Have you any idea how terrifying most women find this?

Oh please, no one's expecting people to sit in darkness. There are plenty of lone women who use the Pendolino and I'm sure if they found the experience terrifying, many would have made their views known by now.

 

[Journeyman]

Oh please, no one's expecting people to sit in darkness. There are plenty of lone women who use the Pendolino and I'm sure if they found the experience terrifying, many would have made their views known by now.

Bright lighting reassures people. This may not matter to you, but it matters to a lot of people.

I think the perception was (and is) worse than the reality. 1980s BR was hardly the New York subway. I recall my granny telling me that a railway carriage was statistically one of the safest places in the world. She lived and travelled alone for most of her life. She didn't seem concerned.

The majority of my female friends - pretty much all of them, in fact - have had to deal with harassment and aggression from men while travelling. I'm glad your granny was alright and all, but I'm not sure one anecdote gives you the right to belittle what is a serious societal problem.

 

[yorksrob]

Bright lighting reassures people. This may not matter to you, but it matters to a lot of people.

The majority of my female friends - pretty much all of them, in fact - have had to deal with harassment and aggression from men while travelling. I'm glad your granny was alright and all, but I'm not sure one anecdote gives you the right to belittle what is a serious societal problem.

And it also makes travelling long distances an unpleasant experience for a lot of people, including women. I don't doubt that women have suffered harrassment while travelling, however I'm not convinced that creating an unpleasant, un-relaxing travelling environment achieves much.