More Borismaster Discussion

[Bletchleyite]

The Enviro 400 City (a very nice bus) is clearly a copy of the Borismaster (so far as was legal/feasible on a regular chassis). Had the Borismaster not been designed, that design would no doubt not have come about.

 

[edwin_m]

The Enviro 400 City (a very nice bus) is clearly a copy of the Borismaster (so far as was legal/feasible on a regular chassis). Had the Borismaster not been designed, that design would no doubt not have come about.

It copies some of the distinctive design features so that at a glance it appears to be the same. But I think the point is whether there's anything wrong with doing that if an "iconic" vehicle is needed, rather than designing something new from the ground up.

See also the various weird and wonderful front ends that French mayors tend to specify for what is otherwise a bog-standard Alstom Citadis.

 

[Mikey C]

It copies some of the distinctive design features so that at a glance it appears to be the same. But I think the point is whether there's anything wrong with doing that if an "iconic" vehicle is needed, rather than designing something new from the ground up.

See also the various weird and wonderful front ends that French mayors tend to specify for what is otherwise a bog-standard Alstom Citadis.

Would the "distinctive" features ever have happened if the original Borismaster was never designed? Probably not.
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That's why I said quantifiable not subjective. London icon.... rubbish! Amazing that other cities don't need such a visual icon and can manage with off the peg designs. I remember wandering around Florence, looking at the Duomo and the Ponte Vecchio, and thinking.... but if only they had a bespoke bus!

The cost of a comparable hybrid is c.£50k. Add in the cost of the staff salaries for the customer assistant....

Most of them don't have customer assistants. And more customer facing jobs is hardly the worst thing in the world - most people hate it when station staff are removed or guards removed from trains!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most of them don't have customer assistants. And more customer facing jobs is hardly the worst thing in the world - most people hate it when station staff are removed or guards removed from trains!

A) if they're removed, then what was the point of the rear platform?
B) the extra cost of these customer assistants is still how much per annum in total?

So you have a vehicle that

• costs more to buy
• costs more to operate (in the mode that was the reason it was designed in the first place and represents it's one USP), and
• the lack of bendis means you need many more of them

And let's not forget the extra £2m spent on putting opening windows in them nor the issues batteries, power steering, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A) if they're removed, then what was the point of the rear platform?

A politically motivated gimmick.

BUT, and it's a big but, the rear *door* and second staircase is useful in aiding greater passenger flow.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A politically motivated gimmick.

BUT, and it's a big but, the rear *door* and second staircase is useful in aiding greater passenger flow.

Yes, and if that was used as it was intended, what would the cost be..... (Clue: think of a figure between 36 and 38 and then multiply by a million ££££££££££)

That's per year, every year. The simple equation is whether the improved passenger flow enables a PVR saving of that magnitude (which it doesn't).

 

[edwin_m]

Would the "distinctive" features ever have happened if the original Borismaster was never designed? Probably not.

But if the original brief had been to produce a hybrid bus that looked a bit like a Routemaster, then this Enviro would have ticked the boxes. And being based on a standard product, it would have done so at a much lower price. Other than the rear door, which as others have pointed out is of little practical use, what does the "genuine" Borismaster have that this one doesn't?

 

[padbus]

Meanwhile, in the May edition of Buses magazine, it is reported that the Singapore Land Transport Authority is planning to switch to 3 door, two staircase double deckers by 2018 This would aid passenger flow in the buses and reduce dwell time at bus stops. ADL has exhibited a concept Enviro500MMC with a third door aft of the rear tag axle.

See also http://businterchange.net/busphoto/displayimage.php?pid=10358

 

[Busaholic]

Meanwhile, in the May edition of Buses magazine, it is reported that the Singapore Land Transport Authority is planning to switch to 3 door, two staircase double deckers by 2018 This would aid passenger flow in the buses and reduce dwell time at bus stops. ADL has exhibited a concept Enviro500MMC with a third door aft of the rear tag axle.

See also http://businterchange.net/busphoto/displayimage.php?pid=10358

As I haven't yet purchased 'Buses' I've no idea whether passenger seating has been mentioned, so I'm going to take a gamble and suggest there'll be at least a third more seats on the lower deck and a quarter more on the upper deck with the Singapore buses compared to their London counterparts. Anyone who thinks the seat spacing is generous on a Borismaster would have to be a wizened masochist, so that would not be the reason.

 

[Kuyoyo]

As I haven't yet purchased 'Buses' I've no idea whether passenger seating has been mentioned, so I'm going to take a gamble and suggest there'll be at least a third more seats on the lower deck and a quarter more on the upper deck with the Singapore buses compared to their London counterparts. Anyone who thinks the seat spacing is generous on a Borismaster would have to be a wizened masochist, so that would not be the reason.

They are currently displaying two concepts (as listed in 'Buses'):

1. An Enviro500MMC with the same door layout as on the Borismaster, with the thrid door behind the third axle but in-front of the engine
2. A MAN which has the third pair of doors directly behind the second pair

 

[plcd1]

There are a range of photos, interior and exterior, of the Singapore Concept Buses at https://www.flickr.com/photos/km30192002/ ( not my photos )

I happen to think both buses are decent but the ADL clinches it for me. It shows what can be done, IMO far far better, with the basic concepts of the NB4L physical configuration. Clearly these buses aren't hybrid but they are fully air conditioned.

I have the original NB4L business case papers which were published but later withdrawn by the London Assembly. Thankfully I was fast enough with the download button.

In the original business case they estimated the cost of the second crew member at £30k per annum with two shifts per day assumed. TfL only assumed 250 buses would operate with a second person so the "all buses will be crewed" statement by the Mayor was a lie from day one. The documents prove TfL never intended all buses to run in crew mode.

In terms of vehicle costs then TfL's estimates were

NB4L £319k-£332k
Standard hybrid DD £310k
Standard diesel DD £190k

It is worth noting these are very early numbers and the NB4L main batch ended up costing £354K per bus but there is an element there for mid life refurb and other costs. Later NB4L orders came in slightly lower but never met TfL's lowest estimate.

From the original business case paperwork -

The following key cost assumptions have been made:

 TfL does not procure or own any vehicles.
 The new bus is operated for two full contract terms of 7 years ie 14 years in total
 The notional maximum number of new buses deployed is 600, of which 250 are “convertible” open rear platform variant NBfL-01, and 350 are permanent non-open rear platform variant NBfL-02.
 There is no significant maintenance cost variation between NBfL and standard hybrid vehicles, however the difference between the annual maintenance costs per bus between diesel and hybrid, and diesel and NBfL are estimated to be £5k/yr/bus on a like for like basis.
 Fleets operated by bus companies require 12% spare capacity over PVR
 The “convertible” open rear platform variant NBfL-01 is operated in crewed
mode (ie open platform) for 2 out of 3 shifts per day Monday to Friday only (ie 10 shifts per week out of a maximum of 21)
 The staff cost of a second crew member is £30k per annum per person, and there is a 12% cover ration for training, leave, sickness etc.
 The unit cost premium of a NBfL over a standard hybrid bus is £9k
 The unit cost premium of an NBfL over a standard diesel bus is £129k.

The following key benefits assumptions have been made:
 The “willingness to pay” value for enhanced safety & security is £0.05 per passenger trip
 The value for journey time savings is £0.1102 per minute saved per passenger
 The values for the safety dis-benefit are £1.70m per fatality, £190k per serious injury and £15k for a slight injury.
 Fuel savings are based on a 5 litre/100km saving for NBfL compared to a standard hybrid, and 48 litre/100km saving compared to a diesel bus.
 CO2 savings are based on 115g/km savings for NBfL compared to a standard hybrid bus with a rating of £52 per tonne of CO2 saved per year, and 403g/km savings compared to a diesel bus.

It is worth noting that TfL assumed operators would buy or lease the vehicles - how wrong that proved to be.

There is actually NO positive business case for the NB4L at all despite TfL's attempts to justify and measure all sorts of things. Its biggest advantage is fuel economy. In normal circumstances TfL would never, ever have been able to spend £350m+ on 1,000 buses with such an appalling business case. The only justification has been that the bus was a Mayoral manifesto commitment and TfL have milked that to the absolute last knockings on the Mayoralty. One day we will discover exactly what went on behind closed doors to get us from 600 of things to a sudden splurge on another 400 of them.

 

[padbus]

As I haven't yet purchased 'Buses' I've no idea whether passenger seating has been mentioned, so I'm going to take a gamble and suggest there'll be at least a third more seats on the lower deck and a quarter more on the upper deck with the Singapore buses compared to their London counterparts. Anyone who thinks the seat spacing is generous on a Borismaster would have to be a wizened masochist, so that would not be the reason.

Given that the Singapore E500 is reported to be 13m in length there ought to be more seats downstairs than on a new Routemaster! It worth noting that ADL have sold E500s with similar 3 door layout to Post Auto in Switzerland (though probably not yet delivered).

 

[Busaholic]

Given that the Singapore E500 is reported to be 13m in length there ought to be more seats downstairs than on a new Routemaster!

My assumption precisely! With such an overall length, and assuming effective boarding times, then a 3 door/2 staircase bus can be justified, but Boris had it that such lengthy buses killed hundreds of cyclists, remember, or would do until reined back by someone in possession of the true facts. B. Johnson is a very unfunny joke and must get nowhere near any national, let alone, international, power. Our very own version of Trumpf!

 

[Antman]

My assumption precisely! With such an overall length, and assuming effective boarding times, then a 3 door/2 staircase bus can be justified, but Boris had it that such lengthy buses killed hundreds of cyclists, remember, or would do until reined back by someone in possession of the true facts. B. Johnson is a very unfunny joke and must get nowhere near any national, let alone, international, power. Our very own version of Trumpf!

Well Boris made his intentions clear in his manifesto and was voted in on the back of it, that's how democracy works!

 

[Wolfie]

Well Boris made his intentions clear in his manifesto and was voted in on the back of it, that's how democracy works!

You are right in part. A manifesto covers many, many things. I seriously doubt that Boris got elected solely because of the bendy/New Routemaster bus issue.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right in part. A manifesto covers many, many things. I seriously doubt that Boris got elected solely because of the bendy/New Routemaster bus issue.....

Probably not - though he probably did get elected on the basis of his overall plans for TfL - as they do seem to be the most prominent aspect of the mayoralty.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well Boris made his intentions clear in his manifesto and was voted in on the back of it, that's how democracy works!

Populism on the basis of factually inaccurate soundbites (e.g. bendis as merchants of death). Of course, Boris has form on this. Lest we forget he was sacked from the Times for making up quotes

 

[Robertj21a]

I hear that the first Borismasters to be retro-fitted with opening windows (at last!) are now in service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hear that the first Borismasters to be retro-fitted with opening windows (at last!) are now in service.

Hooray! Anyone got a photo?

 

[Mikey C]

You are right in part. A manifesto covers many, many things. I seriously doubt that Boris got elected solely because of the bendy/New Routemaster bus issue.....

It was his headline policy, so pretty important.

 

[Antman]

Populism on the basis of factually inaccurate soundbites (e.g. bendis as merchants of death). Of course, Boris has form on this. Lest we forget he was sacked from the Times for making up quotes

No point being bitter because you didn't get the result you wanted
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You are right in part. A manifesto covers many, many things. I seriously doubt that Boris got elected solely because of the bendy/New Routemaster bus issue.....

And equally he didn't not get elected because of it and I don't see too many people mourning the demise of the bendybuses

 

[Robertj21a]

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And equally he didn't not get elected because of it and I don't see too many people mourning the demise of the bendybuses

Untrue. Many people have always appreciated that they can be the most efficient crowd movers in urban operation. It's a great shame that Boris got rid of them based on a personal whim, and inaccurate information.

 

[edwin_m]

Well Boris made his intentions clear in his manifesto and was voted in on the back of it, that's how democracy works!

Voted in on the back of a bus?

There's a joke there trying to get out ... if only the back door hadn't been locked out ...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No point being bitter because you didn't get the result you wanted

And what result did I want???

 

[Mikey C]

Untrue. Many people have always appreciated that they can be the most efficient crowd movers in urban operation. It's a great shame that Boris got rid of them based on a personal whim, and inaccurate information.

And lots of people hate them, as shown by the result of the Mayor election

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not sure how the Mayoral election results prove anything about either the bendybuses or the New Bus for London.

Johnson also promised in 2008 to "defend local ticket offices" by "stopping the planned ticket office closures", as well as bringing in a network of "express orbital buses" around London.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/04/27/Transportmanifesto.pdf

He then promised in 2012 to implement the New Bus for London "at no more cost than an existing hybrid bus".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/boris-johnson-2012-transport-manifesto

Do let me know how he got on with those promises.

 

[bb21]

Jesus, some people believe that the mayoral election results pinned on people's taste for buses?! hock:

Londoners must be pretty stupid in that case. Somehow I doubt that.

 

[Mikey C]

Jesus, some people believe that the mayoral election results pinned on people's taste for buses?! hock:

Londoners must be pretty stupid in that case. Somehow I doubt that.

Getting rid of the bendybus and bringing in a "new Routemaster" were major pledges for Boris in 2008.

Indeed, it's one of the few things the Mayor has direct control over, the other pledges to do with housing and crime are much less controllable.

Obviously he didn't just win because of buses, but it was an important factor, hence the fact that the first Borismaster was introduced before the 2012 election wad crucial for his reelection chances.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Jesus, some people believe that the mayoral election results pinned on people's taste for buses?! hock:

Londoners must be pretty stupid in that case. Somehow I doubt that.

Absolutely!

I'm sure that Londoners had no questions around the rest of the transport network, or crime, or financial competence, or housing, or jobs, or central financing/town hall spend, or indeed anything else..... Just a bus with a rear platform that doesn't get used the majority of the time

 

[bb21]

Getting rid of the bendybus and bringing in a "new Routemaster" were major pledges for Boris in 2008.

Indeed, it's one of the few things the Mayor has direct control over, the other pledges to do with housing and crime are much less controllable.

Obviously he didn't just win because of buses, but it was an important factor, hence the fact that the first Borismaster was introduced before the 2012 election wad crucial for his reelection chances.

It may have been an issue some people find interesting, with the vast majority feeling indifferent, and probably even more so if the development costs had been highlighted to them. What Londoners want are buses that take them to and from work reliably. Londoners certainly did not have a pot of money lying around to be wasted on a bus that does very little extra compared to what was already available on the market. Even £1m wasted can be better spent on something more meaningful like housing, or social care, or schools, etc.

Then of that small proportion, only a proportion will even have what a bus looks like on their minds when they went to the polling booth (or such like).

Then of that you only have a proportion of people who would have felt strongly enough about the bus issue to let it influence their decision. Exactly what proportion that would be we may never know, but it is safe to say that it is likely to be no higher than a tiny proportion.

He was very clever in bringing it out before the re-election. People always like new things. They look at it and go, wow, a new bus, so that would have played a part in 2012. I don't seem to remember him telling the electorate how much this exercise cost. This excitement soon fades into the background and the insignificant for people. A bus is ultimately a bus for them.