More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

[Cowley]

Just get a nice freightliner to run with it (even going wrong road if necessary) to block the trespassers view, the look on their faces would be priceless!

Now that, is a good future use for Pacers.
I quite like Mag_seven/Randy Rippleys Q train idea. You could get quite a few BTP on the train, and plenty of temporary booking in/prison space etc...

 

[ainsworth74]

I am a passionate supporter of our railway heritage but this particular loco has become an unacceptable risk to the railway network.

I must admit that's where I'm getting to with this. You have the odd incident with other steam locomotives when they're out and about. But it almost seems like every time Flying Scotsman is out there is at least some sort of incident or issue. At what point do we have to go enough is enough and it's preserved lines and static displays only?

At the end of the day it's important to show our heritage for all to see but equally at the point that it gets in the way of doing the day job safely how sustainable is it?

 

[randyrippley]

easy to take all the seats out of a pacer so you can pack more crims in, and no end doors for them to jump out of. Maybe a better option would be a 37 with a couple of GUVs.............the 37 would draw more photographers in and make them easier to grab

How about a few rail mounted water cannons ?

presumably the sandite trains would just need the spray nozzles redirected.....

 

[JamesT]

easy to take all the seats out of a pacer so you can pack more crims in, and no end doors for them to jump out of. Maybe a better option would be a 37 with a couple of GUVs.............the 37 would draw more photographers in and make them easier to grab

When you come to pick a 37 for the duty, I suggest 37509 clearly has the necessary experience for the job. Just needs to be put back into an old livery

 

[johnnychips]

The 1255 ex Sheffield was 22 late at Sheffield and 106 late at Birmingham (about 20 minutes was lost going around the back to Chesterfield).
The Nottingham to Cardiff service in front of the Flying Scotsman took 70 mins between Burton and Tamworth (10 min journey) so it sounds like some people where a bit more line side than they should of been.

The Norwich train before it went the 'wrong way' out of Sheffield but I just assumed this was a usual diagram for knowledge retention. I wonder why the Flying Scotsman didn't encounter the same problem. Anybody know where this broken rail was?

It is strange how this particular locomotive enthralls so many people. A lady with a three year old lad at Sheffield had in particularly come to see it. I wasn't aware the FS was running today, and it was great to see it going straight through Sheffield station. But it would have been just as good for me if it were 'Sir Nigel Gresley' or 'Bahamas'.

 

[MadCommuter]

Who picks up the delay minutes for these kind of incidents? It's trespass so presumably NR take the hit?

 

[Dr_Paul]

Is this just a modern phenomenon? I have somewhere in a book -- I'll try to find it -- a photograph of railway enthusiasts all over the platform ramp, the track and the six-foot back in the 1960s at a Southern region station, Chichester perhaps.

 

[Cowley]

I must admit that's where I'm getting to with this. You have the odd incident with other steam locomotives when they're out and about. But it almost seems like every time Flying Scotsman is out there is at least some sort of incident or issue. At what point do we have to go enough is enough and it's preserved lines and static displays only?

At the end of the day it's important to show our heritage for all to see but equally at the point that it gets in the way of doing the day job safely how sustainable is it?

It’s not sustainable at all at the moment.
There’s very rarely a problem with any other steam special, but 60103 just seems to bring out people that have no real interest in trains but want to ‘tick off’ this particular machine in the same way that they’d like to ‘tick off’ Concorde, or the Titanic etc (yeah I know)...
I’m wondering if it’d be better to pull it from a couple of railtours and release the reasons why to the mainstream press so that those people that don’t seem to read the railway press*, but get overly excited and turn out to see it and end up causing these ongoing problems calm down a little...

(* Clearly if you read the railway press and still act like this then there’s not much hope for you)

 

[randyrippley]

When you come to pick a 37 for the duty, I suggest 37509 clearly has the necessary experience for the job. Just needs to be put back into an old livery

good idea
see https://www.class37.co.uk/imagepage.aspx?strnumber=ma37093

 

[yorkie]

The Norwich train before it went the 'wrong way' out of Sheffield but I just assumed this was a usual diagram for knowledge retention. I wonder why the Flying Scotsman didn't encounter the same problem. Anybody know where this broken rail was?

There is no 'wrong way' ; most trains went via the 'old road' to avoid the speed restriction imposed by the broken rail.

Trains that went via Dronfield incurred less delay; the delay to the Scotsman appears to have been 6 minutes.

It's about 10 minutes longer via Beighton if you get a clear run.

I assume that trains went via Beighton rather than Dronfield in order to reduce the risks of the broken rail problem getting worse.

 

[Cowley]

Is this just a modern phenomenon? I have somewhere in a book -- I'll try to find it -- a photograph of railway enthusiasts all over the platform ramp, the track and the six-foot back in the 1960s at a Southern region station, Chichester perhaps.

It happened all the time back then and well into the 1990s too...
Things have changed massively since then though, and a cheery toot of the horn while everyone shuffles out of the way just doesn’t cut the mustard these days.

 

[LowLevel]

Is this just a modern phenomenon? I have somewhere in a book -- I'll try to find it -- a photograph of railway enthusiasts all over the platform ramp, the track and the six-foot back in the 1960s at a Southern region station, Chichester perhaps.

They're not wandering around the ballast shoulder with Voyagers shooting at them at 120 mph though.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[randyrippley]

restrict it to working only on lines which are hard to access, like the Settle-Carlisle or far north lines

 

[Cowley]

restrict it to working only on lines which are hard to access, like the Settle-Carlisle or far north lines

There’s something in that.
I wonder if that’s the best thing to do for while until it all calms down a little?
Most people who know nothing about railways would be happy enough to see what has become ‘The Icon of Steam’ pass by them at 25 mph on their local heritage railway - where they can get a decent shot to put in their photo album.

60103 will pull the money in wherever it’s operating, be it a preserved line or somewhere off the main routes. The S&C is a natural stamping ground for an A3, and starting from the south end would have a large catchment area for punters.

 

[John Luxton]

The very first rail tour I travelled on was the Moorlands Railtour in 1968 Liverpool to Carlisle and return behind Flying Scotsman. My father treated me to this for my 9th birthday - it was good fun.

When we reached Blea Moor there was a photo stop and everyone bailed out onto the track, I even recall some ladders were provided!
I accept that such behaviour is not appropriate these days and I must admit as a youngster who had always been taught to respect the dangers posted by railways thought it a bit dodgy even back then to be allowed to do this.

I also recall being allowed to do it 11 years later at Meldon Quarry in 1979 and on that occasion no ladders were provided, it was jump down and climb up!

Whilst undoubtedly there are probably some irresponsible enthusiasts out there - I often feel that in the case of the FLYING SCOTSMAN it is the media hype associated with the locomotive that has elevated it to its current status which encourages celebrity obsessed "Joe Public" to turn out just because it is featured in the local rag / media!

I feel as this locomotive has been elevated to a status which it does not deserve and as a consequence I have never been a fan of FLYING SCOTSMAN.

But then I have always regarded Swindon not Doncaster as being the works that built the first 100mph steam locomotive.

John

 

[John Luxton]

I'd pull 60103 off the national network completely.

Good idea, over hyped in this celebrity obsessed world. Once the media plug something for its fame what ever it is be it locomotive or celebrity it is going to bring the thick celebrity obsessed nutters out!

 

[Cowley]

You’re asking for trouble with that one John.

 

[Cowley]

John Luxton - I love the ex Southern railways of the southwest, and I also love the corporate image of the (original) GWR - And they did it extremely well.

I cannot deny that Flying Scotsman is a handsome well proportioned looking machine though.
I couldn’t dislike those lines even if I tried...

 

[433N]

Isn't this behaviour the opposite of rail enthusiasm which is an interest in the mundane ?

 

[Aictos]

For now I think the best place for steam locos to trundle up and down any line is on a preserved railway at 25mph, especially with all the expenses and wasted time spent by BTP, NR etc on some loco just because of a famous name.

Limit any steam hauled tours to 5 a year if that on the National Network, might sound harsh but the network is there to provide a service not for playing trains for steam groupies!

 

[Tracked]

When I've been caught up in the chaos the "viewers" are, as you say, people who've heard that "der flyin scotsmann train" is passing by and have decided to go and dribble because it's "faymuss, innit". I wouldn't class any of them as railway enthusiasts. I doubt many of them would even be able to tell the difference between the Scotsman and a fully-streamlined LMS Coronation if it was carrying a "Flying Scotsman" headboard.

Before they go, Northern need to name one of their pacers ...

Didn't know it was running, missed it in Sheffield by about 30 minutes

 

[The Box Photter]

I think it probably was.
It would’ve been due into Exeter at 18: something or other.

All of this reflects very badly on railway enthusiasts as a whole, regardless of the fact that most people on here couldn’t give a monkeys about Scotsman.
It’s unfortunate that this machine seems to bring out the railway equivalent of the Paparazzi whenever it hits the rails.
What can be done about this? It’s becoming a big problem...

Swap the nameplates for those of another A3 and renumber the bloody thing as an unknown loco. Or just paint it bright orange, or matt black with no numbers. Then the mouth breathers with their iPads will have no idea what loco is running & the "master shot" merchants won't want to photograph it.

Alternatively, NRM could just withdraw it from service and put it in the museum for good. The apparent hysteria that surrounds this loco whenever it runs risks the complete banning of all main line steam.

 

[DarloRich]

When I've been caught up in the chaos the "viewers" are, as you say, people who've heard that "der flyin scotsmann train" is passing by and have decided to go and dribble because it's "faymuss, innit". I wouldn't class any of them as railway enthusiasts. I doubt many of them would even be able to tell the difference between the Scotsman and a fully-streamlined LMS Coronation if it was carrying a "Flying Scotsman" headboard.

Last time I got involved with one of the Scotsman "visits" every access point along the route in my bit of the world (that's every platform, every road level crossing, every foot crossing, every user worked crossing, every staff gate) had to be staffed to try and keep the idiots under control. That took a ridiculous number of Network Rail and TOC staff and contractors away from their day jobs; Network Rail Ops Managers, P/Way, S&T and other NR staff were stuck arguing with entitled idiots at trackside access points, and TOC staff, cops (BTP and civvy) along with contract security guards were dealing with the same issues at stations. Every single member of staff out dealing with that train had other work they should have been doing but which had to be deferred just so they could help deal with the Scotsman-luvvies.

It was a hugely disruptive (and of course expensive) operation just because one specific steam loco was pulling a train. How can it be in any way sustainable?
It's certainly not necessary to ban all steam movements, but Scotsman is simply causing a disproportionate amount of disruption to the network, and it simply can't go on like this. I'd pull 60103 off the national network completely.

Isn't this behaviour the opposite of rail enthusiasm which is an interest in the mundane ?

The pictures I have seen very much showed "spotter" types trespassing rather than randoms or kids.

It isnt randoms who will get fs and steam tours stopped it is memebers of our community. We all need to acknowledge this and do something about it.

 

[Aictos]

Alternatively, NRM could just withdraw it from service and put it in the museum for good. The apparent hysteria that surrounds this loco whenever it runs risks the complete banning of all main line steam.

Damn good idea!

 

[Journeyman]

Further to questions about whether all this trespass is a new thing, it clearly raised a lot of concerns back in 1992, when BR ran the first ever steam hauled train from Waterloo since 1967. I was on it - a rebuilt Bulleid Pacific (can't remember which one) went to Bournemouth. There was huge concern over widespread trespass on the third rail network, so the train ran after dark to discourage photography. This seemed to work, but since then night photography has been greatly helped by DSLRs going up to about a bazillion ISO, so it probably wouldn't work now. Photographing a moving train on film at night was much harder.

Fully agree with other comments here, we're not far from people being killed in their quest to photograph this bloody thing, and if that happens, you can kiss goodbye to steam on the main line for good.

 

[robbeech]

The single fact is this has cost likely a 7 figure sum in delay minutes and additional staff time / resources. The railway can’t sustain these costs for a train to use the rails only likely paying similar access charges to the next one. This is ultimately paid at least in part by the tax payer.
High quality Cameras on the train, and prosecution of those caught will go some way to minimising this but it won’t get rid altogether.

 

[Ethano92]

Isn't this behaviour the opposite of rail enthusiasm which is an interest in the mundane ?

I'd suggest that it would be spotters which were lineside as they'd believe they know what they're doing and argue that ''they were standing a safe distance away" and they know about any dangers etc whereas random members of public would likey stick to access points such as a platform or level crossing etc.

 

[underbank]

Good idea, over hyped in this celebrity obsessed world. Once the media plug something for its fame what ever it is be it locomotive or celebrity it is going to bring the thick celebrity obsessed nutters out!

I agree with this. Yesterday's tour was very well publicised in the media. It wasn't enthusiasts out in huge numbers, it was the facebook generation just wanting selfies to put on their facebook page to get some likes. FS has been out on the main line all over the place, as light engine positioning movements and test runs, without the selfie generation in huge numbers on the route. I've seen it a dozen or so times now in and around Carnforth on loco movements, test runs and ECS, and there's never more than a handful of people at each level crossing, station or other lineside vantage point - the few who follow websites like this and railcom and use realtimetrains. There were more people at Carnforth to see the 37's on the last loco hauled Cumbria coast service than there were last time I went to see FS there. Perhaps we should find a way to stop the media hyping it up to the facebook/twitter generation. A quick google search shows a number of media outlets were hyping it up yesterday and doing the same for Tuesday's trip via Lincoln to York.

 

[underbank]

I'd suggest that it would be spotters which were lineside as they'd believe they know what they're doing and argue that ''they were standing a safe distance away" and they know about any dangers etc whereas random members of public would likey stick to access points such as a platform or level crossing etc.

I'd suggest the opposite.