More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

[Ethano92]

I'd suggest the opposite.

Fair enough, may very well be the case I guess.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Despite all the howls of protest on here, the videos and pictures I’ve seen of the trespassers seem to be 50+, the video I referenced above for example, was taken by a Doctor who certainly appears to fit that age bracket.

Also another video of the train passing through a platform at speed with a bunch of middle aged men with their (in no way compensating) massive zoom lenses and ladders (!!!!) kneeling right on the edge of the coping stones.

The families with young kids and what’s rather arrogantly dismissed as the “Facebook generation,” have all seemed to be the right side of line-side fences and behind the lines on platforms.

 

[RichT54]

It would be a real shame for it to have to happen but, if the NRM decides not to withdraw Flying Scotsman from the mainline, out of interest which organisation would have the authority to ban it?

 

[underbank]

Despite all the howls of protest on here, the videos and pictures I’ve seen of the trespassers seem to be 50+, the video I referenced above for example, was taken by a Doctor who certainly appears to fit that age bracket.

Also another video of the train passing through a platform at speed with a bunch of middle aged men with their (in no way compensating) massive zoom lenses and ladders (!!!!) kneeling right on the edge of the coping stones.

The families with young kids and what’s rather arrogantly dismissed as the “Facebook generation,” have all seemed to be the right side of line-side fences and behind the lines on platforms.

The Derbytelegraph website report shows a video where the "big camera" people are standing behind the yellow line as FS passes through the station and there's a still which clearly shows "normal" people trespassing on the lineside in the still photo below. Of course, there are exceptions, but like I said above, there aren't the same problems when the media hasn't hyped up a particular working, and the "enthusiastics" who appear so dispised are more likely to rely on realtimetrains than wait for a social media hyping-up report.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/trains-forced-stop-flying-scotsman-2835566

 

[driver_m]

There should be an equally well publicised banning of any kettles on the main line, until these brats of all ages get the message that it won’t be tolerated. I’ve nearly bowled someone on a foot crossing once near Beeston Castle because the idiot was trying to photograph a steam train. Then to add insult to injury, seen the same clown wave back at me, on one of the numerous bridges round there, which particularly infuriating.

I get the positive PR and all that but a core of selfish tossers are going to keep doing this and a message has to go out there. Send one trial run out after a ban. Give it the publicity. Load that with police and then make an example of anyone caught. There are tons of good locations and people simply do not need to go on or near the line.

I’ve also just seen a pic of two numpties trackside with their cameras from a XC drivers twitter feed. Brilliant pic of them and I implore BTP and NR to go after them based on it. Quite shocking that one of them is an old man who should know better. A lot better.

 

[class 9]

Was there an actual incident ?

Yes, in the Tamworth, Wichnor Jct, Stenton Jct areas there were numerous trespassing incidents, causing considerable delays to normal workings.

 

[Peter C]

I can say, having been waiting on Banbury station for over two hours to see Flying Scotsman yesterday, there were a large number of delays caused by the people who were trespassing on the line. I saw a group of travellers look at the departures board in the waiting area and decide to take a different train, potentially throwing all of their plans into disarray, because the one they wanted to catch was delayed "Due to a trespassing incident".

-Peter

 

[alex17595]

I think most of it will be from the 'enthusiast community.' Some of the heritage lines also have problems with photographers straying into unsafe areas. Something needs to be done - banning it should be a last resort but if there's no other way than so be it.

You can't police every access on hundreds of miles of route.

 

[The Box Photter]

Despite all the howls of protest on here, the videos and pictures I’ve seen of the trespassers seem to be 50+, the video I referenced above for example, was taken by a Doctor who certainly appears to fit that age bracket.

Also another video of the train passing through a platform at speed with a bunch of middle aged men with their (in no way compensating) massive zoom lenses and ladders (!!!!) kneeling right on the edge of the coping stones.

The families with young kids and what’s rather arrogantly dismissed as the “Facebook generation,” have all seemed to be the right side of line-side fences and behind the lines on platforms.

Unfortunately what happens is that photographers will position themselves well in advance of the arrival of a special train (including those hauled by FS), then latecomers and Joe Public turn up with their phones, tablets and "once in a blue moon" cameras. These people tend not to think like photographers, i.e. "Am I making the most of the shot and its it possible that I might be in the way of other people?" they think the best possible position is as close to the edge of the platform as possible, or they'll position their offspring/grandchildren as close to the platform edge as possible so they can get the shot "...Wiv de Flying Skotsman in de bakground innit".

This royally ****s up the shots for the photographers, so an arms race ensues with each group trying to get as close to the platform edge as possible, culminating in people leaning precariously over the edge to avoid getting a tattooed arm holding an iPad in the shot.

The same thing happens when railtours arrive at their destination and on preserved railways where as soon as the train stops, everyone rushes to the front of the train to get a shot. Those with "proper" camera equipment know that you have to stand back a bit to get a reasonable shot, but the iPhone merchants, because of the massive wide angle perspective of their camera phones, need to be no more than two feet away from the loco otherwise it seems that they were taking the shot from a different County. Then add in the "stand in front of the kettle for a memorable photo" brigade and you end up with the possibility photographers falling onto the track to avoid all the phones held at arm's length.

 

[The Box Photter]

The Derbytelegraph website report shows a video where the "big camera" people are standing behind the yellow line as FS passes through the station and there's a still which clearly shows "normal" people trespassing on the lineside in the still photo below. Of course, there are exceptions, but like I said above, there aren't the same problems when the media hasn't hyped up a particular working, and the "enthusiastics" who appear so dispised are more likely to rely on realtimetrains than wait for a social media hyping-up report.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/trains-forced-stop-flying-scotsman-2835566

And the shots they were getting would be garbage too. If everyone had stood along the back edge of the platform in the video footage shown, they'd have been able to get an acceptable shot of the whole train passing through and the guy kneeling down wouldn't have needed to put himself in danger. JUST STAND BACK EVERYONE!

 

[DanDaDriver]

The same thing happens when railtours arrive at their destination and on preserved railways where as soon as the train stops, everyone rushes to the front of the train to get a shot. Those with "proper" camera equipment know that you have to stand back a bit to get a reasonable shot, but the iPhone merchants, because of the massive wide angle perspective of their camera phones, need to be no more than two feet away from the loco otherwise it seems that they were taking the shot from a different County. Then add in the "stand in front of the kettle for a memorable photo" brigade and you end up with the possibility photographers falling onto the track to avoid all the phones held at arm's length.

Because God forbid anyone who wasn’t a true enthusiast would want to take anything other than the same 3/4 on weirdly HDR’d shot of the same loco that’s been photographed a billion times.......

 

[ComUtoR]

Not forgetting those 'photographers' who like to set up at critical operational locations and block the operational working of the railway.

I had a rather amusing situation the other day where a 'photographer' decided to setup his camera(s) right on the DOO monitors and the stand in front of them. As I pulled in, he asked that I waited until he could get his photo before dispatching the train. Suffice to say this request was politely declined and I pulled out just as his desired unit came into the platform as I rolled out blocking his shot. Cue 'photographer' running down platform with camera in hand.

 

[_toommm_]

Unfortunately what happens is that photographers will position themselves well in advance of the arrival of a special train (including those hauled by FS), then latecomers and Joe Public turn up with their phones, tablets and "once in a blue moon" cameras. These people tend not to think like photographers, i.e. "Am I making the most of the shot and its it possible that I might be in the way of other people?" they think the best possible position is as close to the edge of the platform as possible, or they'll position their offspring/grandchildren as close to the platform edge as possible so they can get the shot "...Wiv de Flying Skotsman in de bakground innit".

This royally ****s up the shots for the photographers, so an arms race ensues with each group trying to get as close to the platform edge as possible, culminating in people leaning precariously over the edge to avoid getting a tattooed arm holding an iPad in the shot.

The same thing happens when railtours arrive at their destination and on preserved railways where as soon as the train stops, everyone rushes to the front of the train to get a shot. Those with "proper" camera equipment know that you have to stand back a bit to get a reasonable shot, but the iPhone merchants, because of the massive wide angle perspective of their camera phones, need to be no more than two feet away from the loco otherwise it seems that they were taking the shot from a different County. Then add in the "stand in front of the kettle for a memorable photo" brigade and you end up with the possibility photographers falling onto the track to avoid all the phones held at arm's length.

Some enthusuiasts can't afford expensive DSLR's, and you can get fairly competent shots these days from smartphones too...

 

[randyrippley]

this is part of the problem: local news sites giving timings for where the train is going to be
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/flying-scotsman-burton-derby-london-2792810
Its encouraging people to get in the way

This is how you can see the Flying Scotsman in Derby and Burton today
The famous steam engine the Flying Scotsman is passing through Derbyshire and East Staffordshire today - and there will be plenty of chances to see it.
The good news for those living in and around Derby and Burton is that they will soon be able to watch the world-famous engine.

And there's plenty of notice being given for you to pick out a good spot to enjoy what promises to be a specular view of the green and black locomotive.

The iconic train will be traveling from York to London Paddington tomorrow, taking in the sights of Burton, as well as Derby, along the way. It is sure to attract big crowds along its route.

And for those wanting to get the best view and pictures the expected times the engine will be travelling through both Derby and Burton have now been released.
The first place to spot the engine is at Chesterfield South at 12.43pm. It will then be at Clay Cross North by 12.48pm, Ambergate at 1.04pm, St Mary's South Junction at 1.13pm before it makes its way through Derby at 1.16pm.

London North Western, Derby, is the next location at 1.18pm, Stenson at 1.23pm and North Stafford at 1.24pm before it goes to Burton.

It is set to head through the Clay Mills junction at 1.27pm and into Burton at 1.30pm, according to Real Time Trains.

It is set to pass through Wyncor at 1.36pm before continuing on to Tamworth.

 

[LOL The Irony]

this is part of the problem: local news sites giving timings for where the train is going to be
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/flying-scotsman-burton-derby-london-2792810
Its encouraging people to get in the way

Maybe a blanket ban on exact timings (Unless you know where to look. Don't mention these site's) until about 2 hours in advance so the press will just have to say Train X will be here on Saturday.

 

[ComUtoR]

this is part of the problem: local news sites giving timings for where the train is going to be
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/flying-scotsman-burton-derby-london-2792810
Its encouraging people to get in the way

They quoted timings taken directly from Realtimetrains. (maybe they are enthusiasts) That should generate traffic and potential income to that website - this is a good thing.
A local news site reporting local news - Yep, that's their job.
It gives multiple locations to view from - not encouraging crowding, probably a good thing.

I can't see them encouraging people to trespass or get in the way.

Heritage rail needs to be supported. The more who go to see it the better. This will help when it comes to funding and can help to generate income for heritage sites, museums, railways, memorabilia etc.

 

[Elecman]

It would be a real shame for it to have to happen but, if the NRM decides not to withdraw Flying Scotsman from the mainline, out of interest which organisation would have the authority to ban it?

Network Rail

 

[randyrippley]

They quoted timings taken directly from Realtimetrains. (maybe they are enthusiasts) That should generate traffic and potential income to that website - this is a good thing.
A local news site reporting local news - Yep, that's their job.
It gives multiple locations to view from - not encouraging crowding, probably a good thing.

I can't see them encouraging people to trespass or get in the way.

Heritage rail needs to be supported. The more who go to see it the better. This will help when it comes to funding and can help to generate income for heritage sites, museums, railways, memorabilia etc.

The very act of posting the timings and suggested viewing locations exacerbates the problem.
As for supporting heritage rail.........standing by the lineside taking photos contributes exactly zero income "for heritage sites, museums, railways, memorabilia etc.". Its pure parasitism

 

[NSEFAN]

Is this just a modern phenomenon? I have somewhere in a book -- I'll try to find it -- a photograph of railway enthusiasts all over the platform ramp, the track and the six-foot back in the 1960s at a Southern region station, Chichester perhaps.

The situation is somewhat different compared to the 1960s. Back then, many places had fewer/slower/noisier trains, so it was less likely that passengers would come to harm as they would either encounter no other trains or would have more time to avoid them. Cameras were also much more expensive, so it was less likely to have crowds of people trying to take photos or videos, and losing all situational awareness in doing so. See that infamous near miss video with the class 170 at a foot crossing for the perfect example of this behaviour. Finally, someone getting clobbered by a train due to trespass in 1960 would perhaps not have invoked the same legal/PR nightmare that it would today.

 

[ComUtoR]

The very act of posting the timings and suggested viewing locations exacerbates the problem.

The timings are publicly available.

As for supporting heritage rail.........standing by the lineside taking photos contributes exactly zero income "for heritage sites, museums, railways, memorabilia etc.". Its pure parasitism

It keeps people interested. People go down and see the train and then some will make a decision to go see other trains. Keeping people interested is what generates income. There will, no doubt, be some who go out there way to go view this train. This generates income for those who decided to travel by train to get there and generates local income because people tend to spend money on lunch etc in a local establishment.

Sharing the photos also does the same. They will be on various social media sites generating clicks through advertising and potentially generating more interest for people wanting a day out somewhere.

It enthuses the next generation and any parent knows that when your kiddywinkles want something, you tend to provide it. I wonder how many trips to the National Railway Museum will happen because someone saw the Flying Scottsman ?

People will buy memorabilia and specifically because this train is so famous. How many rail and transport museums have something with this train on ?

Seeing this train come flying through a platform helps keep our heritage railway alive.

*edit*
I'm kinda shocked nobody has taken the opportunity to set up a stall at these locations. Sell a few badges etc. Even a burger van or an Ice Cream Man could make a few quid.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Yes, in the Tamworth, Wichnor Jct, Stenton Jct areas there were numerous trespassing incidents, causing considerable delays to normal workings.

Considerable = 100 minutes, just for that incident!
And then another 26 when the loco threw a hissy fit at Tyseley, and blew its water injector.

 

[ComUtoR]

Considerable = 100 minutes, just for that incident!
And then another 26 when the loco threw a hissy fit at Tyseley, and blew its water injector.

Is that total minutes (including the impact minutes) ?

 

[theironroad]

It would be a real shame for it to have to happen but, if the NRM decides not to withdraw Flying Scotsman from the mainline, out of interest which organisation would have the authority to ban it?

Network Rail own the mainline infrastructure in Britain and could deny a pathway , therefore it wouldn't run.

WCRC were the operating TOC for the movement yesterday went they and the NRM could probably appeal to the ORR ,but when one train is causing so much disruption to regular passenger and freight services, the appeal would probably fail.

I think it's unlikely to be totally banned, but as others have suggested maybe moved to quieter routes.

I think the NRM have a mission to let the engine be seen as widely as possible around the country, but that has to be balanced.

Running it on a bank holiday weekend probably didn't help either in terms of minimising lineside activity.

 

[Ianno87]

It would be a real shame for it to have to happen but, if the NRM decides not to withdraw Flying Scotsman from the mainline, out of interest which organisation would have the authority to ban it?

Network Rail

And if they didn't/couldn't (though they have every right to reject a path if it is an undue safety risk) the ORR could.

Maybe a blanket ban on exact timings (Unless you know where to look. Don't mention these site's) until about 2 hours in advance so the press will just have to say Train X will be here on Saturday.

The Royal Train Timings are not uploaded to industry systems.

Perhaps a similar approach for Scotsman, with charter paths for it granted on condition that non-station stop timings are not leaked? Would likely require changes to access contracts etc though.

Considerable = 100 minutes, just for that incident!
And then another 26 when the loco threw a hissy fit at Tyseley, and blew its water injector.

Besides the delay minutes, each incident had a potential to be fatal.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Is that total minutes (including the impact minutes) ?

I believe it is the impact minutes.

 

[theironroad]

Despite all the howls of protest on here, the videos and pictures I’ve seen of the trespassers seem to be 50+, the video I referenced above for example, was taken by a Doctor who certainly appears to fit that age bracket.

Also another video of the train passing through a platform at speed with a bunch of middle aged men with their (in no way compensating) massive zoom lenses and ladders (!!!!) kneeling right on the edge of the coping stones.

The families with young kids and what’s rather arrogantly dismissed as the “Facebook generation,” have all seemed to be the right side of line-side fences and behind the lines on platforms.

I have rather chuckled at some of the replies in here and the vehement denial that it could be enthusiasts in the wrong.

Some enthusiasts are some of the most likely to ignore railway safety rules.

In the early months of my driving career, it was a someone crouching at the very end and edge of the platform trying to get 'that shot' that almost gave me a heart attack as my non-stopping train came round the blind approach corner and I was convinced it was someone about to jump, causing me to make a emergency brake application. It was only when I got nearer to him that I saw the camera and realised it probably wasn't a jumper. Bit late really.

I requested to the signaller that the MOM or police attend, whether they did or not I don't know . Luckily I felt ok to continue as the passengers on my train had already been inconvenienced by the unexpected and rough stop and time it took to get it reported.

I realise that the vast majority of enthusiasts play by the rules and also use common sense, but I'm afraid the minority give a bad impression sometimes to those of us trying to run trains 24/7

 

[underbank]

The timings are publicly available.

There's a massive difference between publicly announcing the details across all kinds of social media platforms, as opposed to people who are genuinely interested doing their own research to find them.

 

[ComUtoR]

There's a massive difference between publicly announcing the details across all kinds of social media platforms, as opposed to people who are genuinely interested doing their own research to find them.

So we shouldn't advertise this at all and keep it for a select few ?

Not forgetting this is a nice little bump for Realtimetrains. Potentially a few more users for that site.

This should really be supported.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

More of a general query, but last Saturday, we were on the TPE service from Manchester Picccadilly to Durham. Was "Flying Scotsman" in steam on the lines outside the National Railway Museum in York?

 

[HOOVER29]

Bloody brainless!!!
To be fair he wasn’t the only one.
Down the line at Willington there were so called photters sitting the wrong side of the fence adjacent to the line. There will be a tragic accident soon & then what?
As for the brainless donk at Elford he wants naming & shaming.