More GTR cluelessness

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently an Off Peak Single London Thameslink to Bedford (code TN) is not valid in the evening peak according to the barrier staff at City Thameslink. And according to the the guy in the ticket office who refused to sell me one and was convinced enough he was right that he made his refusal in writing with a ticket office stamp.

On the assumption that the Customer Services will also get this wrong (the Twitter staff have just proven themselves unable to read their own web page, having said it isn't valid and "backed it up" with a web page that says it is), who can I escalate this to?

 

[455driver]

Passenger Focus at a guess.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Apparently an Off Peak Single London Thameslink to Bedford (code TN) is not valid in the evening peak according to the barrier staff at City Thameslink. And according to the the guy in the ticket office who refused to sell me one and was convinced enough he was right that he made his refusal in writing with a ticket office stamp.

On the assumption that the Customer Services will also get this wrong (the Twitter staff have just proven themselves unable to read their own web page, having said it isn't valid and "backed it up" with a web page that says it is), who can I escalate this to?

A short letter to the GTR Managing Director, Charles Horton?

I'm not sure what address would be best to use though, in order that it might have a chance of not simply being redirected to the standard customer service channels...

NRE has:
Hertford House, 1 Cranwood Street, London, EC1V 9QS.

Amusingly(ish) NRE show different addresses for all the four GTR brands! However I think Hertford House in London is GTR's HQ.

 

[Hadders]

The incompetence is breathtaking. Perhaps you could post a picture of the written refusal on here so we can have a good laugh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will do when I get home. I was amused by his willingness to prove his foolishness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I forgot...he almost refused Network Railcard discount as well, he did capitulate on that when I pushed the point.

I wonder how many people he has overcharged?

 

[talltim]

I have no idea on the validity, so I'll bow to the knowledge of the forum, but it does seem strange that an off peak ticket would be valid in the peak, when you are traveling in the same direction as the main flow and you aren't coming from somewhere else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is strange, but it is a fact. I think the idea is that commuters are charged but weekend/evening trippers are not. It's an unusual case of asymmetric fares.

 

[Mag_seven]

I have no idea on the validity, so I'll bow to the knowledge of the forum, but it does seem strange that an off peak ticket would be valid in the peak, when you are traveling in the same direction as the main flow and you aren't coming from somewhere else.

Here is the fare (quoted by the "definitive" NRE Website) £23 "Off-Peak" for a departure this evening at 17.30 from City Thameslink to Bedford:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/CTK/BDM/today/1730/dep

 

[bb21]

A short letter to the GTR Managing Director, Charles Horton?

I'm not sure what address would be best to use though, in order that it might have a chance of not simply being redirected to the standard customer service channels...

NRE has:
Hertford House, 1 Cranwood Street, London, EC1V 9QS.

Amusingly(ish) NRE show different addresses for all the four GTR brands! However I think Hertford House in London is GTR's HQ.

I'm not sure how much you expect Charles Horton to know about fares.

It will get kicked to customer service or the retail team.

You'll likely get a quicker resolution if you tweeted them.

 

[DPQ]

A short letter to the GTR Managing Director, Charles Horton?

I'm not sure what address would be best to use though, in order that it might have a chance of not simply being redirected to the standard customer service channels...

NRE has:
Hertford House, 1 Cranwood Street, London, EC1V 9QS.

Amusingly(ish) NRE show different addresses for all the four GTR brands! However I think Hertford House in London is GTR's HQ.

I can tell you with 99% certainty that there are zero GTR staff at Hertford House anymore and is definitely not GTR's HQ.

 

[yorkie]

I have no idea on the validity, so I'll bow to the knowledge of the forum, but it does seem strange that an off peak ticket would be valid in the peak, when you are traveling in the same direction as the main flow and you aren't coming from somewhere else.

Loads of tickets with "Off Peak" in the name are valid at what is considered to be the 'evening peak', and it's a long-standing tradition on these lines that the outward portion of day tickets, or a single day ticket, is valid at these times.

It's very easy to look the restrictions up, but some staff prefer to invent their own imaginary rules instead. This is rather uncommon up north but is far more common than it should be in the London area.

 

[sheff1]

You'll likely get a quicker resolution if you tweeted them.

It would appear from the OP that the Twitter team are even more clueless. How can anyone with even half a brain provide "back up" which explicitly contradicts their own made up assertion ?

 

[Hadders]

I have no idea on the validity, so I'll bow to the knowledge of the forum, but it does seem strange that an off peak ticket would be valid in the peak, when you are traveling in the same direction as the main flow and you aren't coming from somewhere else.

Historically Off Peak tickets were only barred in the morning peak, there were no evening restrictions.

We then had greedy FCC who in (I think) 2007 introduced evening peak restrictions on some Off Peak tickets. As mentioned above there are many Off Peak tickets valid in the evening peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll likely get a quicker resolution if you tweeted them.

I Tweeted them and they said it wasn't valid, quoting a web page that confirmed it is valid. They then conceded and said they misread my Tweet, but to get my four quid back I'd have to log it via Customer Services. And log it I will.

But it is staggering in its incompetence:-

- Member of ticket office staff does not know the validity of a single ticket for a direct journey from the station he works at (there's nothing complicated or rare about it, I bet he has incorrectly sold hundreds of Anytime tickets for the journey in the last month, raking in hundreds of pounds of additional fraudulently-obtained income for GTR).

- Member of staff does not know how to check a restriction code on his TIS, or can't be bothered doing it. (I wouldn't have done anything if he'd checked it when I asked him to do, he instead said he felt I was being rude simply because I said I thought he was wrong and he should use his TIS to check the restriction code, which I also gave to him).

- Barrier staff don't know it's valid either - indeed stated that it is not (presumably as it was valid the TVM might have sold it, I didn't have time to check, but I bet the barrier would have rejected it and I'd have failed the argument there, back to square one).

- Ticket office staff did not know that in no situation is there an evening peak restriction on Network Railcards and had to be pushed to apply that discount.

Staggeringly, institutionally incompetent. So bad that it can't possibly be an accident.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would appear from the OP that the Twitter team are even more clueless. How can anyone with even half a brain provide "back up" which explicitly contradicts their own made up assertion ?

Supposedly they didn't read the word "single" in my Tweet, which was hardly hidden!

I'm just amazed I got a stamped confirmation from him of what he was saying which incriminates him and proves he offered incorrect advice with a ticket office stamp on it. I think he was by that point going to do anything to get me to go away (other, of course, than sell me the correct ticket).

 

[bb21]

May be worth getting your MP involved if no satisfactory response is forthcoming.

 

[Bletchleyite]

May be worth getting your MP involved if no satisfactory response is forthcoming.

We shall see.

Even without the stamped sheet the ticket is itself incriminating - there is no reason to ever sell an Anytime Day Single to Bedford for the same day after the morning peak (the Off Peak doesn't bar BoJ so that is not a get-out). That ticket should not ever be sold for same day travel after 0900 on any weekday. Dead simple.

 

[bb21]

Dead simple.

Not if they were poorly trained by seniors who were themselves poorly trained, ad infinitum.

 

[Abpj17]

Not if they were poorly trained by seniors who were themselves poorly trained, ad infinitum.

Putting it in writing is amusing while tragic.

I do, personally, wonder how many tickets are sold at City Thameslink though - because it's not on the underground it's usually struck me as a heavy commuter station rather than 'walk up' fares.

As I suspect you may be aware, some of the barrier staff at CTK are particularly grumpy and difficult

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I suspect you may be aware, some of the barrier staff at CTK are particularly grumpy and difficult

I can handle "grumpy" and "difficult" where applied to people who genuinely do not have a valid ticket and have no excuse. But "wrong" as well...

 

[Hadders]

I Tweeted them and they said it wasn't valid, quoting a web page that confirmed it is valid. They then conceded and said they misread my Tweet, but to get my four quid back I'd have to log it via Customer Services. And log it I will.

But it is staggering in its incompetence:-

- Member of ticket office staff does not know the validity of a single ticket for a direct journey from the station he works at (there's nothing complicated or rare about it, I bet he has incorrectly sold hundreds of Anytime tickets for the journey in the last month, raking in hundreds of pounds of additional fraudulently-obtained income for GTR).

- Member of staff does not know how to check a restriction code on his TIS, or can't be bothered doing it. (I wouldn't have done anything if he'd checked it when I asked him to do, he instead said he felt I was being rude simply because I said I thought he was wrong and he should use his TIS to check the restriction code, which I also gave to him).

- Barrier staff don't know it's valid either - indeed stated that it is not (presumably as it was valid the TVM might have sold it, I didn't have time to check, but I bet the barrier would have rejected it and I'd have failed the argument there, back to square one).

- Ticket office staff did not know that in no situation is there an evening peak restriction on Network Railcards and had to be pushed to apply that discount.

Staggeringly, institutionally incompetent. So bad that it can't possibly be an accident.

I agree with absolutely everything here. This really needs addressing properly by people at the top of GTR, sadly I fear you will end up getting a cut and paste response that says absolutely nothing.

The real danger here is that GTR will introduce further evening peak restrictions to 'simplify' things claiming that it's what passengers want. We need to be on the look out for any sharp practice here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The real danger here is that GTR will introduce further evening peak restrictions to 'simplify' things claiming that it's what passengers want. We need to be on the look out for any sharp practice here.

TBH I don't even mind that, I can see the logic behind the idea that it should be Anytime only. The point is that it isn't, and the staff are paid to understand what the restrictions are, not what they think they probably should be.

 

[AlterEgo]

The more I read about things like this the more I eagerly await the demise of the ticket office.

 

[miami]

2Fraud by false representation

(1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b)intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2)A representation is false if—
(a)it is untrue or misleading, and
(b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a)the person making the representation, or
(b)any other person.
(4)A representation may be express or implied.
(5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

I assume the defence of the majority of the railway staff you encountered was not knowing their jobs and being unable to read ticket restrictions, so 2b wouldn't apply, that seems a bit of a stretch though when the restrictions are so easily looked up.

 

[Starmill]

I'm surprised that someone with as much experience as Neil is shocked by this. This kind of thing happens all the time. It's not even slightly surprising to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more I read about things like this the more I eagerly await the demise of the ticket office.

If all the staff at City Thameslink ticket office are this bad and it isn't just one (and this is GTR we're talking about, so an institutional issue with regard to poor training is a more likely cause rather than one bad apple), I can only recommend that City Thameslink ticket office is closed forthwith and replaced with a "Trainline TVM" that will issue tickets according to a journey-planner itinerary. They would at least issue correct tickets most of the time.

And can GTR please go through their restriction codes and update the single line descriptions to say something useful (in this case "ONLY MORNING PEAK RESTRICTIONS APPLY", for example) and not just garbage like "restrictions may apply please enquire"?

 

[Mag_seven]

The incompetence is breathtaking. Perhaps you could post a picture of the written refusal on here so we can have a good laugh.

Will do when I get home. I was amused by his willingness to prove his foolishness.

Are you going to post a picture of it then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, kept forgetting, here it is. I suppose he could argue that he meant a return half based on the wording, but the fact remains the ticket (also shown) should never have been issued at that time of day (or indeed at any time after 0900 on any weekday).

I remain astonished he did it.

 

[Hadders]

Whether the ticket is a single or return is irrelevant.

If I rock up at City Thameslink and ask for a ticket to Bedford for immediate travel after 0930 then:

An Off Peak Single is valid on any train after 0900
An Off Peak Day Return is valid on any train after 0900 (with the return portion valid on any train after 0930)

If needing an Off Peak Return because of travelling back another day then the outward portion is valid after 0930. There are also evening restrictions meaning you can't pass through St Pancras between 1729 and 1831. The return portion is valid after 0930.

This isn't difficult to understand and anyone selling tickets at City Thameslink really should be aware of the restrictions from that station.

There are different restrictions if you hold a ticket from Bedford to City Thameslink (London Thameslink to be precise). The return portion of both Off Peak Day returns and Off Peak Returns have evening restrictions. These tickets are unlikely to be sold at City Thameslink although I would imaging they get a fair number of enquiries about them.