More police misbehaviour: are they trying to deliberately wind the public up?

[AlterEgo]

Further, "the police" did not "take the knee" a couple of rather ill-advised officers did off their own backs. I find it irritating that this is often trotted out as if it was some kind of policy decision. It clearly wasn't.

Of course, it wasn’t a policy decision and I never suspected it was - you’re right to make the distinction.

 

[DB]

the police are functionally forced to take any means available to prevent this challenge from going unanswered.

No they aren't - they can choose which battkes they fight on issues like this - hence other police forces have chosen to avoid the confrontation.

 

[yorkie]

As people here will know, I am no supporter of the lockdown.

But what did they expect to happen?
They made a direct challenge to the lockdown, the police are functionally forced to take any means available to prevent this challenge from going unanswered.

I have taken up something of an accelerationist position on this - if this gets the rich middle class to wake up to the faustian bargain they made to obtain their precious lockdown, the more the better.

I strongly disagree that the police had to act this way; the contrast between how this was policed in places like Nottingham vs Brighton for example demonstrates this.

However I agree that all but the most hardy authoritarians have now turned against this country's harsh and unjustified lockdown measures. It's a shame it took so long, and something of this nature, to convince some.

 

[AlterEgo]

Typical authoritarian hyperbole. The risk of transmission outside (of this not very deadly pandemic) is very low. The police could and should have kept a low profile and taken no action.

Quite. The BLM protests and counter protests happened in the midst of covid panic, and there was no effect at all on case numbers due to these gatherings, which were outside.

 

[HSTEd]

Quite. The BLM protests and counter protests happened in the midst of covid panic, and there was no effect at all on case numbers due to these gatherings, which were outside.

The legal situation at that time was rather different to that which prevails now.

We have no right of protest now, we did then.

 

[Horizon22]

Oh please, egregious breaches of the law.....

We all know the real reason they went in for arrests, as @duncanp rightly points out, the vigil was bad PR for the Met and they wanted a show of force to break it up.

If the vigil was bad PR, the response following the Met's response is even worse... They were engaged with in good faith by the organisers - who had gone above and beyond to create a safe environment - and completely misinterpreted the mood hiding behind coronavirus restrictions and using hyperbole to defend their actions. I'm normally a supporter of the Met in what is an unforgiving role, but here it was just totally disproportionate.

 

[Watershed]

They hold an illegal vigil for the woman

Err, no.

The High Court judge stated that the police were acting unlawfully in holding a policy that no protest or vigil can be lawful.

He said that the police must engage in a balancing exercise of the risks associated with the protest vs the engaged human rights.

Clearly, had the police engaged with the organisers, the risks could have been mitigated sufficiently to let the protest proceed peacefully and entirely lawfully.

despite being repeatedly told that it is illegal

Yes, that was (incredibly) the Met's position - despite the judge specifically telling them to engage with the RTS organisers to find a safe way for the vigil to happen.

They simply refused to entertain the notion that the vigil could be lawful. Look what happened as a result.

It was the police that were acting illegally, in claiming that the vigil could not be legal.

despite people being allowed to attend all day the police told some people who had started to hold some speeches on a bandstand to stop as it was causing a crowd to form - again, illegally

Not necessarily illegal (that would have to be determined by a court)

But even if we accept that it was, the responsibility for that can be laid squarely at the feet of the Met: for refusing to engage with the organisers to enable the event go ahead in a Covid secure manner.

Also of note, what kind of vigil involves people attending with banners that say "ACAB" etc? It looks suspiciously like at least some of the people (by no means all) were from the "rent-a-mob brigade"

The sentiment is understandable in the circumstances, but the ACAB brigade were by no means part of the planned vigil. The participants of the vigil 'proper' cannot be blamed for trouble makers that turn up.

there is certainly a debate to be had about the proportionally of the regulations that made it illegal, but I fear that may drift into a different (albeit related) topic.

There is certainly debate to be had as to why the government felt the need to put protest in a grey zone of being neither explicitly forbidden nor allowed.

But there is no debate to be had as to whether protest is, in principle, permissible after Friday's High Court ruling.

I have to say, I am not at all surprised to see the level of public anger that we have seen yesterday and indeed today, when officers that I previously thought reasonable and respectable, such as you, hold attitudes like these.

 

[backontrack]

A innocent woman was brutally murdered (which we can assume because she could only be identified by her dental records)

I didn't know that.

Christ.

 

[infobleep]

The evidence shows quite the opposite of what @the sniper claims; here is an example from Brighton:

https://twitter.com/Connormoylett/status/1370849393386065921

North Yorkshire Police have disgraced themselves again, with many asking questions:

https://twitter.com/PhillipDJMorgan/status/1370868706943852545

Wish I'd realised that was going on; I'd have happily shouted "shame on you" to the police (and if anyone erroneously thinks I "wouldn't dare", well they are entitled to think whatever rubbish they want to think!)

The media I looked at only seemed focused on Clapham Common and nothing else,

However I get the impression they didn't want to report strongly that people were going to attend anyway in case it encouraged others to go.

They might not want to be seen to encourage people to break the law. Now I appreciate the law might not be lawful but they aren't lawyers so they might play it safe.

Whilst of course ensuring some journalists are on site to report, at which ever one they feel needs to be covered, as journalists are exempt.

I'm aware that Andrew Castle, LBC presenter, attended last night in a personal capacity.

 

[Bantamzen]

If the Met were looking to successfully manage PR, they'd have not touched the event with a bargepole...

I appreciate it makes for a more exciting narrative, the stuff of novels oft-mentioned. Maybe it's the only way people without experience of organisations like this can get their heads around it, by putting far too much thought into it. But you folks credit the Met/Police with far too much ideological vision.

One thing about 30+ years in public services has taught me is that covering arses is often a driver for stupid decision making. Let's get it right here, the Met could, and indeed should have just let the vigil happen. But they chose not to, and it isn't hard to believe that somewhere in the chain of command someone wanted to make a point. You really don't need to look very far to see other incidences of police forces circling the wagons when things get tough, and so its not so difficult to imagine the Met thinking that a show of force might somehow be beneficial to them and/or their image.

As people here will know, I am no supporter of the lockdown.

But what did they expect to happen?
They made a direct challenge to the lockdown, the police are functionally forced to take any means available to prevent this challenge from going unanswered.

I have taken up something of an accelerationist position on this - if this gets the rich middle class to wake up to the faustian bargain they made to obtain their precious lockdown, the more the better.

Maybe be allowed to hold the vigil in peace? I mean given the circumstances its not unreasonable for people to want to show their feelings towards what happened & of course make sure that Old Bill doesn't try to sweep this under the carpet. But you are right, if this shakes off a little more locktivism by showing the fanatics that lockdown rules can impact on them too, then maybe some good will come of it.

 

[HSTEd]

Maybe be allowed to hold the vigil in peace?

Why should even be permitted and no others?

It's a bunch of people screaming that the rules they had so gleefully imposed on everyone else shouldn't apply to themselves.

 

[yorkie]

It's a bunch of people screaming that the rules they had so gleefully imposed on everyone else shouldn't apply to themselves.

Who are these people?

 

[the sniper]

One thing about 30+ years in public services has taught me is that covering arses is often a driver for stupid decision making. Let's get it right here, the Met could, and indeed should have just let the vigil happen. But they chose not to, and it isn't hard to believe that somewhere in the chain of command someone wanted to make a point. You really don't need to look very far to see other incidences of police forces circling the wagons when things get tough, and so its not so difficult to imagine the Met thinking that a show of force might somehow be beneficial to them and/or their image.

I don't think even they're that daft. If the Police had done nothing, the event would have attracted far, far less publicity and the ACAB lot (who were very much in the minority) would have gone home disappointed. The only press coming out of it would be 'Police allow illegal gathering'...

The vast majority of the public aren't thinking the Met brutally raped and murdered a girl. And the Met will be glad to throw this nutter under the bus.

 

[XAM2175]

I do hope the events of last night turn an increasing number of people off the awful authoritarianism that has blighted us for the past 12 months.

I'd make the suggestion that much of this authoritarian leaning has been around a very long time indeed; it's just that the Coronavirus response extended it more than anything else into everybody's daily lives, and the Clapham Common events are far less politically divisive than most others. A poster in another discussion here mentioned the actions of the police at Orgreave in 1989 - but that wasn't such a problem because the protesters were NUM picketers. Police have broad stop-and-search powers that are often questioned, but they don't attract much fuss because they're mainly used on non-white people and especially on non-white people in London. Theresa May's "Hostile Environment" policy added "papers-please" requirements to the processes of seeking employment, renting accommodation, and accessing NHS treatment, made 'deport first, appeal later' official Home Office policy, and lead to the Windrush scandal.

In 2019 the Hansard Society's Audit of Political Engagement found that 54% of respondents said that "Britain needs a strong leader who is willing to break the rules", and that 42% "think many of the country’s problems could be dealt with more effectively if the government didn’t have to worry so much about votes in Parliament".

Increasing dissatisfaction with Coronavirus restrictions coupled with this reaction to the MPS' actions may well prompt a few near-term changes, but I'm not holding my breath that that it will go much further.

 

[Cdd89]

If I were a government minister (or an opposition minister) I’d be hiding behind a bush right now. People are currently focussed on the 50% of the blame that lies with the police, but consciously removing the explicit right to protest when it should be considered legal is something that should make politicians very uncomfortable if it is questioned. At the very least it gives the lie to the prevailing narrative of “the harder/tougher the lockdown, the better”, and might make politicians think twice about doing what is popular at the time (and I’m sure not allowing protest was popular in December) when it comes back to bite them later.

 

[Yew]

Apparently there is a push on Twitter for Cressenda Dick to resign; however unfortunately they're using the hashtag #dickout. Which I fear that I cannot take seriously.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Apparently there is a push on Twitter for Cressenda Dick to resign; however unfortunately they're using the hashtag #dickout. Which I fear that I cannot take seriously.

Given the features of the Sarah Everard case and certain details surrounding the suspects alleged recent conduct, this choice is possibly in bad taste!!

Very interesting that this turn of events seems to have united left and right wing commentators. I personally am still struggling to understand the MetPol thought process in this. The policing of this event would have had to pass up and down through multiple levels of command before it got to officers on the ground - did no-one engage brain and think 'hang on?' In my view, this suggests that the police were under political pressure and/or thought they would get political backing for their actions (and I'm looking at Preeti Patel here). Well, I think in this instance they may have failed to factor in a cabinet that likes to flip-flop, move goal posts and reverse ferret on a regular basis. I've been introduced to a number of senior police officers on the dinner party network, they mainly seem thoroughly middle class, university educated and often politically astute (much to the chagrin of a lot of more beat level coppers!) - it's astonishing these people didn't sense danger here...

 

[greyman42]

I've been introduced to a number of senior police officers on the dinner party network, they mainly seem thoroughly middle class, university educated and often politically astute (much to the chagrin of a lot of more beat level coppers!) - it's astonishing these people didn't sense danger here...

And lacking in real life experience and common sense?

 

[Bantamzen]

Given the features of the Sarah Everard case and certain details surrounding the suspects alleged recent conduct, this choice is possibly in bad taste!!

Very interesting that this turn of events seems to have united left and right wing commentators. I personally am still struggling to understand the MetPol thought process in this. The policing of this event would have had to pass up and down through multiple levels of command before it got to officers on the ground - did no-one engage brain and think 'hang on?' In my view, this suggests that the police were under political pressure and/or thought they would get political backing for their actions (and I'm looking at Preeti Patel here). Well, I think in this instance they may have failed to factor in a cabinet that likes to flip-flop, move goal posts and reverse ferret on a regular basis. I've been introduced to a number of senior police officers on the dinner party network, they mainly seem thoroughly middle class, university educated and often politically astute (much to the chagrin of a lot of more beat level coppers!) - it's astonishing these people didn't sense danger here...

It is hard to believe that the decision makers didn't say to the officers on the ground "please, don't make this worse" isn't it? Quite honestly I suspect that they are so far removed from reality thanks to the extra powers handed to them by the government that they probably thought the public would be organising Thursday night clap-alongs for their heroic deeds.

 

[carriageline]

I’m really late to this (sadly, I had not even heard of the poor lady going missing, or her death until my partner informed me! I rarely watch news, don’t have much time for social media etc) So please excuse if anything I say seems to be ignorant, as I’m playing catch up.

To me, “Clapham Common” seems to have been a really ill-thought out application of rules. I get that people shouldn’t be gathering (unsure what rules are on protest etc) I don’t personally believe in anything conspirital, just very poor reading of the mood, and not thinking further than “must enforce COVID legislation”. Of course, that doesn’t make it any better.

I can’t see how any police officer would feel that starting to arrest people would be a good idea, or even fine someone.

Even mass policing an event like this seems to really put across a terrible message. Surely a simple briefing of “stand by, and don’t cause a riot.... we are not aggressors!”
I don’t think for a minute that any of his colleagues support the murderer, nor want to “stand by him”, but doing this can really put that kind of message across.

I don’t know the events leading up, or during the murder (tell tale signs, etc) but does him being a police officer fire this up further? (Genuine question, I want to see people’s responses) he wasn’t on duty at the time was he?

how someone capable of this was given the power he had is what concerns me the most. The only thankful thing is the quick arrest and remanding.

Sad, sad day.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

People join the police from all sorts of backgrounds, some went to university, some are BAME. They go through a lot of training and socialisation, they develop, change, conform. After 20+ years in the police people have a quite different view of society.

One does wonder how police officers are screened and checked. Is murder by a police officer especially seldom?

 

[Bantamzen]

I’m really late to this (sadly, I had not even heard of the poor lady going missing, or her death until my partner informed me! I rarely watch news, don’t have much time for social media etc) So please excuse if anything I say seems to be ignorant, as I’m playing catch up.

To me, “Clapham Common” seems to have been a really ill-thought out application of rules. I get that people shouldn’t be gathering (unsure what rules are on protest etc) I don’t personally believe in anything conspirital, just very poor reading of the mood, and not thinking further than “must enforce COVID legislation”. Of course, that doesn’t make it any better.

I can’t see how any police officer would feel that starting to arrest people would be a good idea, or even fine someone.

Even mass policing an event like this seems to really put across a terrible message. Surely a simple briefing of “stand by, and don’t cause a riot.... we are not aggressors!”
I don’t think for a minute that any of his colleagues support the murderer, nor want to “stand by him”, but doing this can really put that kind of message across.

I don’t know the events leading up, or during the murder (tell tale signs, etc) but does him being a police officer fire this up further? (Genuine question, I want to see people’s responses) he wasn’t on duty at the time was he?

how someone capable of this was given the power he had is what concerns me the most. The only thankful thing is the quick arrest and remanding.

Sad, sad day.

It would have been fine had they stood by and made sure it didn't get out of control, which frankly it never was likely to. But they decided to wade in and make arrests. Clearly they are bored due to the lack of football fans they usually take their anger out on.

Actually thinking about this, they could have made a positive message by taking part, you know showing solidarity with those people at the vigil. Nah, sorry I know that's delusional. As this last twelve months have shown us, some police forces revel in being complete gits.

 

[carriageline]

It would have been fine had they stood by and made sure it didn't get out of control, which frankly it never was likely to. But they decided to wade in and make arrests. Clearly they are bored due to the lack of football fans they usually take their anger out on.

Actually thinking about this, they could have made a positive message by taking part, you know showing solidarity with those people at the vigil. Nah, sorry I know that's delusional. As this last twelve months have shown us, some police forces revel in being complete gits.

This is what I don’t understand. All the officers are individual humans. I can’t see how every single one of them could not show any emotion, and was just there to have a good old fashioned roll around with some sad and angry men and women...

Is the “do what I say” regime really that strong, to be able to overcome common sense, and emotion. I can’t see how any officer could be at a peaceful vigil, and it escalated so much that people were arrested.

“Why did you not arrest or fine anyone?!”
“because it was a ******* vigil!!”

 

[nlogax]

Actually thinking about this, they could have made a positive message by taking part, you know showing solidarity with those people at the vigil. Nah, sorry I know that's delusional. As this last twelve months have shown us, some police forces revel in being complete gits

Other forces around the UK seemed to manage that perfectly well last night. I don't understand why the Met were so utterly tone deaf.

 

[DustyBin]

And lacking in real life experience and common sense?

I think there’s a culture of promoting people beyond their ability (or at least prematurely) of late, that’s certainly the impression I get from talking to several police officers I know (both senior and beat level).

 

[87electric]

This is what I don’t understand. All the officers are individual humans. I can’t see how every single one of them could not show any emotion, and was just there to have a good old fashioned roll around with some sad and angry men and women...

Is the “do what I say” regime really that strong, to be able to overcome common sense, and emotion. I can’t see how any officer could be at a peaceful vigil, and it escalated so much that people were arrested.

There are plenty of videos available to view online to see the tensions building up at all kinds of gatherings. There are some humans in an official capacity who revel in dishing out beatings. Take a closer look at the frenzy, hate filled emotions and viciousness of these, what I can only call, attacks on fellow humans. Comparable to bouncers, or any type of security, at nightclubs who think that the law is on their side. What type of person wants to perform these acts? They're morally corrupt and have no empathy at all. It appalls and disgusts me, as it has all level headed and well balanced people today.

 

[HarryL]

Actually thinking about this, they could have made a positive message by taking part, you know showing solidarity with those people at the vigil. Nah, sorry I know that's delusional. As this last twelve months have shown us, some police forces revel in being complete gits.

Absolutely, had they respectfully walked around encouraging social distancing, masks, etc and shown that this bad person was in our organisation, but here is us trying to gain the trust back, they could have got some good publicity. As it turns out they are incapable of doing that. Can't understand how someone can watch the police grabbing and wrestling somebody to the ground, or pushing them around and believe it was the appropriate action to take, a real lack of empathy.

 

[Bensonby]

With the he talk of “brutality” and “beatings” can anyone provide a link to any footage or pictures that show any “beatings” at this incident? I’ve not seen any personally.

 

[packermac]

Absolutely, had they respectfully walked around encouraging social distancing, masks, etc and shown that this bad person was in our organisation, but here is us trying to gain the trust back, they could have got some good publicity. As it turns out they are incapable of doing that. Can't understand how someone can watch the police grabbing and wrestling somebody to the ground, or pushing them around and believe it was the appropriate action to take, a real lack of empathy.

These ort of gatherings of people are currently illegal. Just because other police forces do not enforce the rule does not mean the Met should not.
If this turns into a super spreader event and sets their (valid) argument back then so be it. But I bet the same people will be complaining on her if the roadmap to removing restrictions is delayed.

 

[Journeyman]

These ort of gatherings of people are currently illegal. Just because other police forces do not enforce the rule does not mean the mET should not.
If this turns into a super spreader event and sets their (valid) argument back then so be it. But I bet the same people will be complaining on her if the roadmap to removing restrictions is delayed.

It won't turn into a super spreader event. Remember those crowds on the beach last summer that provoked outrage? It's been confirmed by studies that they had no impact on transmission at all.