Morecambe - Lancaster

[snail]

I think such a link would still have to take in Lancaster to be useful, therefore having the service go to Barrow would require quite a long doubling back along the WCML.

No longer than the doubling back of the current Lancaster-Leeds services via Morecambe.

 

[Dunc108]

For a period in the 1980s direct Lancaster - Hull services operated often in the hands of a 31 & MK1\2 coaches although a few ex-TP DMUs also put in an appearance.

 

[Eagle]

No longer than the doubling back of the current Lancaster-Leeds services via Morecambe.

I think you're confused on your geography there. Leeds to Morecambe services reverse at Lancaster but only double back for about two miles before turning off onto the Morecambe branch. Leeds to Barrow via Lancaster would require doubling back the whole way between Lancaster and Carnforth, which is over six miles.

 

[yorksrob]

No longer than the doubling back of the current Lancaster-Leeds services via Morecambe.

Not really. The distance between Lancaster and the junction for morecambe is a lot less than the distance to Carnforth. Not saying that reversals are the end of the world, more that you‘d be silly to divert the current service without calling at Lancaster.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For a period in the 1980s direct Lancaster - Hull services operated often in the hands of a 31 & MK1\2 coaches although a few ex-TP DMUs also put in an appearance.

For how long and in what time period did such direct Lancaster to Hull services run ? I have a British Rail 1981-1982 timetable and could not find any in that year on table 39, even as a footnote entry.

 

[snail]

Not really. The distance between Lancaster and the junction for morecambe is a lot less than the distance to Carnforth. Not saying that reversals are the end of the world, more that you‘d be silly to divert the current service without calling at Lancaster.

That's what I was thinking. Reversing at Carnforth isn't going to help passengers coming from either direction as they have to get to Lancaster to change to a north-south service, presuming that reopening the WCML platforms at Carnforth isn't going to happen. The Leeds-Morecambe is effectively two services, one to Lancaster and another from Lancaster. It could work the same way for a Leeds-Lancaster-Barrow service.

 

[Dunc108]

For how long and in what time period did such direct Lancaster to Hull services run ? I have a British Rail 1981-1982 timetable and could not find any in that year on table 39, even as a footnote entry.

I'll have to check my reference books when I get home later, but it definitley existed for a period, although I'd wager it was certainly after 1982, pictures of the service appear in some railway books I have at home. I'll have a look later on, maybe it will give a definite timeframe.. I'll even give you the details of the book titles they're depicted in, some may be out of print, but you may find them on Amazon if you don't have them.
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For how long and in what time period did such direct Lancaster to Hull services run ? I have a British Rail 1981-1982 timetable and could not find any in that year on table 39, even as a footnote entry.

The Lancaster - Hull Transpennine service was introduced in the May 1984 BR Timetable, 3 trains in each direction operated by class 31\4 locos and MK1s. 2 out of print railway books depict these in action; see 'Diesels in the North West' by Shannon & Hillmer (1985) and softback 'North West Rails Today' by David Clough (1986) Ive no idea how long these lasted, or how successful they were, BR it seems introduced them when the S&C was on its lowest ebb, perhaps as a small compensation for the loss of S&C through Nottingham - Glasgow workings.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the idea was that these services would connect with Northbound WCML expresses and eventually replace the Settle - Carlisle.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I read somewhere that the Lancaster-Morecambe line had been electrified 3 seperate and distinct times, on 3 different systems. I remember in my youth that the line was electric, with overhead wires supported on wooden poles. Then that was all taken out, and (I think) a prototype of the now familiar steel mast and stitch-wire replaced it - dunno if it was the old DC system on the new wires, or new the (then) new high voltage AC being trialled. Can't remember the rolling stock on the line, but I do remember minimal halts were established of the bus-shelter type along the Morecambe road out of Lanaster (other side of the Lune).There was also a single track branch that climbed out of the low-level station (What was it called?) up to Green Ayre, and that was electified as well, and I remember the electric trains reversing up to Green Ayre in the 60s.

 

[snail]

The low-level station was Green Ayre, next to the River Lune. The branch was to Lancaster Castle (the current station), now a footpath and cycle path.

 

[mbonwick]

Think you're confusing Lancaster Green Ayre and Lancaster Castle stations there.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Think you're confusing Lancaster Green Ayre and Lancaster Castle stations there.

So I am! Thanks Mbonwick et al.
But no intelligence yet on the electrification business?

 

[Darren R]

But no intelligence yet on the electrification business?

The Midland electrified the line between Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham using 6,600V ac in 1908. Power was supplied from the port power station, and the overheads were earthed into the Greyhound Viaduct. New power cars and trailers were used in sets that could be strengthened by adding ordinary coaches and control cables. Trains ran from Lancaster Castle to Lancaster Green Ayre (reverse), on to Morecambe Promenade (reverse again) and thence to Heysham.

This continued until February 1951 when steam auto trains were introduced as the equipment was life-expired. The line was then converted from the original 6,600V ac at 25 cycles to 50 cycles to test equipment for proposed main-line high-voltage electrification schemes, and took power from the national grid at 25,000V ac 50 cycles. It reopened in August 1953 using 3-car sets built by the LNWR in 1914 for the Willesden Junction - Earls Court line.

In order to test equipment for future schemes, each set had different fittings and pantograph. A stretch alongside the River Lune past Carlisle Bridge (where the WCML crosses the river) had a variety of prototype catenary supports and was nick-named The Golden Mile.

The line closed on 3 January 1966, along with passenger services from Green Ayre to Wennington. The curve down from Lancaster Castle to Green Ayre survived until 1976 to supply coal to Lancaster Power Station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We have had much informed comment on both historical and current rail routings and services on this thread, that has made it so very interesting to follow.

I was half-expecting a fully informative posting to appear with concern to the branch to Glasson Dock...

 

[snowball]

This continued until February 1951 when steam auto trains were introduced as the equipment was life-expired.

What's an auto train? If you search for the phrase on the web you get lots of stuff about trains that can carry cars, which I assume is not what you meant.

 

[Buttsy]

What's an auto train? If you search for the phrase on the web you get lots of stuff about trains that can carry cars, which I assume is not what you meant.

Basically a push-pull train using an adapted steam loco and coach so there was no need to run round at the termini.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

We have had much informed comment on both historical and current rail routings and services on this thread, that has made it so very interesting to follow.

Totally agree.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know what the origin of the name 'Green Ayre' is? The sports centre between Lancaster and Morecambe is called 'Salt Ayre' which I assume is related in some way?

 

[snowball]

The Oxford English Dictionary says an ayre is "A ridge of sand or gravel formed by the sea; a gravelly beach; a sand-spit. Also: a sandbank."

Chiefly Scottish (Orkney and Shetland). First recorded 1539. One of the example quotations isn't related to Orkney or Shetland but is local to the district we're talking about:

1869 R. B. Peacock Gloss. Dial. Hundred of Lonsdale, Aire, land warped up by floods or tides, and now or once liable to be overflowed by them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Totally agree.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know what the origin of the name 'Green Ayre' is? The sports centre between Lancaster and Morecambe is called 'Salt Ayre' which I assume is related in some way?

"Ayre" is derived from the Old Norse eyrr which means a narrow shingle storm beach strip that separates the landward and the seaward ends of a shallow bay.

Lancaster, being so near to the sea and the type of allivial land formations that surround it would lend credence to this. Look at what the coastal lands around Silverdale look like at the present time.

 

[Dunc108]

We have had much informed comment on both historical and current rail routings and services on this thread, that has made it so very interesting to follow.

I was half-expecting a fully informative posting to appear with concern to the branch to Glasson Dock...

Had a cycle down the Glasson Dock branch a few weeks back, part of the trackbed is now cut off just to the South of the former Williamsons Factory by a ploughed field! resuming as normal at the bottom of New Quay Lane and intact for the rest of the way.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Basically a push-pull train using an adapted steam loco and coach so there was no need to run round at the termini.

We used to have such a unit running through Burnley to Colne. I don't know where it started from, I suspect Rosegrove, then called at Barracks, Bank Top, and - (everyone has forgotten this) - Reedly Halt; then Brierfield, Nelson and Colne (where the L&Y finished). It was known to locals as "Puffing Billy" (What else?). I well remember seeing it from Ludge Fields, evidently running at speed backwards! "Why is it going backwards, Grandad?"
"Well, it's made to do that - the driver is in the end of the coach, you see".

Incidentally, the name "Rosegrove" applies to an area of Burnley on the west side, but the name is (was?) inscribed on a stone panel in the centre of the last terrace of houses on Accrington Road. Maybe that's where the name comes from. The terrace overlooked the gravity marshalling yard which lay alongside (more or less) the island platform on the south side. The tram line terminated just there for a time (Rosegrove-Harle Syke route) before the line was extended over the railway bridge down into the suburb of RG itself. The trams were discontinued the year before I was born!

 

[Darren R]

What's an auto train? If you search for the phrase on the web you get lots of stuff about trains that can carry cars, which I assume is not what you meant.

Apologies, I shouldn't have assumed everyone would know what I meant by that - especially since everyone seems to have a different name for them! Link to Wikipedia article which explains better than I would:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_steam_railcars

Originally Posted by Paul Sidorczuk
I was half-expecting a fully informative posting to appear with concern to the branch to Glasson Dock...

Well that would be a very short post.....strange this line never gets mentioned in "lines that should be re-opened" threads! (Nor, indeed, the Garstang & Knott End Railway )

Originally Posted by L&Y Robert
We used to have such a unit running through Burnley to Colne. I don't know where it started from, I suspect Rosegrove, then called at Barracks, Bank Top, and - (everyone has forgotten this) - Reedly Halt; then Brierfield, Nelson and Colne (where the L&Y finished). It was known to locals as "Puffing Billy" (What else?). I well remember seeing it from Ludge Fields, evidently running at speed backwards! "Why is it going backwards, Grandad?"
"Well, it's made to do that - the driver is in the end of the coach, you see".

<Pedant mode On> Reedley Hallows Halt! <Normal mode>
The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway started operating a steam railmotor service between Burnley and Colne in 1906. These services were additional to the normal trains, and ran mostly from Burnley Bank Top (now Central), although a few did run to Burnley Barracks or Rose Grove. New ground-level halts were opened at New Hall Bridge and Reedley Hallows (between Burnley and Bierfield) and Bott Lane (between Nelson and Colne.) Only the railmotors served these halts, as they had no platforms. (The L&YR steam railmotors had retractable hydraulic steps for passengers.) These railmotors were withdrawn in the 1930s and replaced by conventional push-pull units, but the service lasted until December 1956 (although New Hall Bridge had closed in 1948.)

As regards nick-names - the railmotor used on the Garstang & Knott End was known locally as the Pilling Pig!

 

[Dunc108]

Heres a link to some pics for anyone interested in the current state of the Glasson Dock Branch:

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/location.php?loc=London and North Western Railway (Glasson Branch)

 

[30907]

I think such a link would still have to take in Lancaster to be useful.

I agree - though initially "post Beeching" Leeds-Morecambes didn't serve Lancaster at all (until around 1980?).
When the service was reduced pre-privatisation to more or less its present level, it was almost entirely Leeds-Lancaster only for several years (Morecambe as a resort having become very run down!) - which again indicates where the market mainly is.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree - though initially "post Beeching" Leeds-Morecambes didn't serve Lancaster at all (until around 1980?).
When the service was reduced pre-privatisation to more or less its present level, it was almost entirely Leeds-Lancaster only for several years (Morecambe as a resort having become very run down!) - which again indicates where the market mainly is.

Ah thanks. I had no idea Lancaster was missed out until so late. A particularly poor piece of planning, bearing in mind that without mainline platforms at Carnforth, there would have been no connection to the WCML!

 

[Dunc108]

I agree - though initially "post Beeching" Leeds-Morecambes didn't serve Lancaster at all (until around 1980?).
When the service was reduced pre-privatisation to more or less its present level, it was almost entirely Leeds-Lancaster only for several years (Morecambe as a resort having become very run down!) - which again indicates where the market mainly is.

The only downside is that Leeds via Lancaster (these days) is the poor relation in comparison to Preston - Leeds via Copy Pit with its hourly services & better rolling stock. In the days before Copy Pit route was re-opened & expanded to current frequency, it may have had some relevance. Transpennine via Lancaster just cannot compete especially with the current, almost skeletal service levels. It could have been so different had the direct line via Lancaster Green Ayre been kept, it was a better station for town, had no conflict with the WCML, more frequent services and stations on the perifory that may have offered some traffic & taken cars off the roads, like Halton & Caton, not mention you could have adapted an already electrified railway via Scale Hall and operated a far superior Morecambe - Lancaster shuttle than is possible via Bare Lane aswell as a favourable altenative to local buses.

 

[yorksrob]

The only downside is that Leeds via Lancaster (these days) is the poor relation in comparison to Preston - Leeds via Copy Pit with its hourly services & better rolling stock. In the days before Copy Pit route was re-opened & expanded to current frequency, it may have had some relevance. Transpennine via Lancaster just cannot compete especially with the current, almost skeletal service levels. It could have been so different had the direct line via Lancaster Green Ayre been kept, it was a better station for town, had no conflict with the WCML, more frequent services and stations on the perifory that may have offered some traffic & taken cars off the roads, like Halton & Caton.

I think that's a rather downbeat assessment of the route's potential. Given a better service and better fares, it could become a useful route between Leeds and Cumbria. 50 - 60 quid between the two doesn't make it particularly competitive.

I'm not sure that the Carnforth route adds that much time. Is the WCML prohibitively full at this point ?

 

[Dunc108]

I think that's a rather downbeat assessment of the route's potential. Given a better service and better fares, it could become a useful route between Leeds and Cumbria. 50 - 60 quid between the two doesn't make it particularly competitive.

I'm not sure that the Carnforth route adds that much time. Is the WCML prohibitively full at this point ?

For that youd need a Leeds - Windermere service, if you want to exploit the Lakes connection & certainly better service levels than is currently the case if youre wanting to capitalise on Lakes connections at Lancaster. Do you really think a through service would happen whilst TPE operates Windermere Branch & Northern Lancaster - Leeds? If Windermere Branch went back to Northern, it might be a possibility... My only worry with Lancaster -Leeds is its always going to be a little hamstrung beyond Carnforth with WCML movements, remember BR diverted this way at a time when main line timetables werent as frequent as they are today and soon gained access to the Bare Lane spur at Hest Bank. Id love the line to see more services, but theres a few odds stacked against it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For that youd need a Leeds - Windermere service, if you want to exploit the Lakes connection & certainly better service levels than is currently the case if youre wanting to capitalise on Lakes connections at Lancaster. Do you really think a through service would happen whilst TPE operates Windermere Branch & Northern Lancaster - Leeds? If Windermere Branch went back to Northern, it might be a possibility.

How would matters seem once the Windermere branch is fully electrified ?

 

[yorksrob]

For that youd need a Leeds - Windermere service, if you want to exploit the Lakes connection & certainly better service levels than is currently the case if youre wanting to capitalise on Lakes connections at Lancaster. Do you really think a through service would happen whilst TPE operates Windermere Branch & Northern Lancaster - Leeds? If Windermere Branch went back to Northern, it might be a possibility...

Well, there's more to Cumbria than Windemere. Cartmel, Grange Over Sands and South Lakeland to name but a few are all quite picturesque and accessible from the Barrow route. Then you have residents of Barrow and Whitehaven etc who may have reason to visit Yorkshire.