It was a while ago (before the 93 reforms). While it was easy enough to follow the roundabout rules (the Flemish ones used the "bunting" style give way signalling), it was the constant change from one to another along this route that tested your concentration!
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Most languages used on a railway service?
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It was a while ago (before the 93 reforms). While it was easy enough to follow the roundabout rules (the Flemish ones used the "bunting" style give way signalling), it was the constant change from one to another along this route that tested your concentration!
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swt class 450
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I have noticed that SNCB/NMBS/NGBE don't seem to have much information in German. I am surprised as i thought they were legally required to. For example the German version of their website is much more basic and lots of the information and documents that are on the Dutch and French versions are not on the German version. Also their social media accounts ( Facebook / Twitter / Youtube ) are all in French or Dutch without any German version. I wonder how they are getting away with this.
Spoorslag '70
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I have no idea either, but as most people in eastern Belgium seem to have a rather good understanding of French (or even Dutch), it should be no problem. Does Scotrail have a Gaelic website?
The German speaking population is sadly a (shrinking) minority in Wallonia and all communities in eastern Belgium are bilingual (by having "facilities" for French speakers).
SHD
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They are getting away with this - because they are scrupulously compliant with the Loi sur l'emploi des langues en matière administrative (Art. 45)
Please Explain
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I've noticed this too.
I stopped off in Eupen very briefly out of curiosity on the way back from DE couple of weeks ago for a quick look around and some obligatory Juplier from Delhaize
.I was surprised to see very little signage in Deutsch at the bahnhof, although everything was in both languages in Delhaize.
It had me thinking that the Deutsch speakers in the Ostkantons may be becoming a suppressed minority in BE?
I know this region has had both a fascinating and at times turbulent history, but I know very little about what life is like there today, somewhere I'd like to get back to and have a proper explore and of course meet the locals!
Do most people there speak Hochdeutsch as their native tung, as in NRW?
swt class 450
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It does seem like the Belgian government are not using the German language as much as they should be especially considering that it is an official language with equal status to the Dutch and French languages. I remember quite a few years ago i had an interesting conversation with a man working at a shop in Eupen about the German language situation. He was saying that there are many people that wish for the German speaking area to become a separate province just like Flanders and Wallonia are.
SHD
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German does not have an equal status to French and Dutch. I am in no way expressing a personal sentiment but simply describing a political and legal reality. Please refer to the Loi sur l'emploi des langues en matière administrative /Wetten op het gebruik van de talen in bestuurszaken.
As an example, federal parliamentary activity - at both Houses of the Belgian federal parliament - is conducted in French and Dutch only. Laws are written in French and in Dutch only.
The official use of the German language by Belgians belonging to the German-speaking Community (Deutschsprachige Gemeinschaft Belgiens) happens (i) in matters that are specifically devolved to Communities by the Belgian constitutional apparatus: education, culture, healthcare, media (not an exhaustive list) and (ii) in local public services of towns in the German linguistic region (*).
In addition, German is the language of the courts in the Gerichtsbezirk Eupen (Eupen Judicial Arrondissement).
(*) Region as in Région linguistique/Linguistic region does not have the same meaning as in Region as in Région wallonne or Région de Bruxelles-Capitale (constitutionally defined entity of Belgium).
TL;DR: Language-related regulations in Belgium are very complex, much more than "there are three official languages, and Brussels is bilingual". These regulations and their implementation and politically and socially sensitive.
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swt class 450
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Thanks for the info. That is interesting to hear. I had always thought that German had equal status to Dutch and French in Belgium. I can't imagine that the people of the German speaking areas are happy with this arrangement which seems to exclude their language from things which do not solely involve the German speaking areas.
I believe there is also a similar situation in Luxembourg with their three official languages (French and German and Luxembourgish). It seems that most things in Luxembourg are in French by default with German being also available for most but not all things and then with Luxembourgish being even less used (despite it being the main language that most of the natives use at home and as their main language). They don't seem to treat all three languages equally in Luxembourg.
What are the railways in Luxembourg like in regards to languages? Are all three languages used on the railways?
I believe there is also a similar situation in Luxembourg with their three official languages (French and German and Luxembourgish). It seems that most things in Luxembourg are in French by default with German being also available for most but not all things and then with Luxembourgish being even less used (despite it being the main language that most of the natives use at home and as their main language). They don't seem to treat all three languages equally in Luxembourg.
What are the railways in Luxembourg like in regards to languages? Are all three languages used on the railways?
Funny you should mention this as I'm currently pottering about the CFL network.
French and German seem to be the default on signage.
The announcements on board just solely state the station name. Once in a Germanic accent, the second in a more French sounding one. The screens on this one however only have 'prochain arrêt' flashing up, no German.
A conductor made an announcement earlier that sounded distinctly Luxembourgish but I can't be sure.
Edit: My Stadler KISS from Rodange is speaking Luxembourgish and French.
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eastwestdivide
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On the subject of Luxembourgish (Lëtzebuergesch), when I was there a few years back, i picked up a little booklet, "Lëtzebuergesch richteg schreiwen" (How to write Luxembourgish correctly, or in German, Luxemburgisch richtig schreiben).
What was interesting was:
a. how much Luxembourgish you can read with a knowledge of German, almost as if Luxembourgish was just a dialect of German (language vs dialect - discuss!)
b. the large number of examples in the booklet where it relied on the reader's knowledge of German to teach the correct spelling in Luxembourgish
Mat frëndleche Gréiss / Wënschen Iech nach e schéinen Dag!
What was interesting was:
a. how much Luxembourgish you can read with a knowledge of German, almost as if Luxembourgish was just a dialect of German (language vs dialect - discuss!)
b. the large number of examples in the booklet where it relied on the reader's knowledge of German to teach the correct spelling in Luxembourgish
Mat frëndleche Gréiss / Wënschen Iech nach e schéinen Dag!
paddington
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Well, it's not that Luxembourgish is a dialect of German, but that it is a type of German, and there are many types of German.
When you say "knowledge of German" what you really mean is knowledge of one particular type of German, Standard German or what Germans call Hochdeutsch (but really should be calling Standardsprache, since High German actually refers to the "Germans" that tend to be spoken in the higher parts of Germany, i.e. not the north/northwest).
Standard German is kind of an artificial language that was initially a middle ground used for writing, but then became adopted as the national language of Germany and Austria and one of the languages of Switzerland. The following is a bit of an exaggeration, but perhaps if history happened differently and the Grand Duchy had taken over more territory, Luxembourgish might have become the Standard language, and Berliners and Bavarians might think of their own languages as the German dialects of Luxembourgish...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilingualism_in_Luxembourg claims that Luxembourgers use different languages in different situations, in contrast to Belgians who split themselves into language communities.
In my interactions with CFL staff, even though I am obviously not a native Luxembourger, they always began the conversation with the Luxembourgish "Moien" then continued in French.
riceuten
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I'm a frequent visitor to Luxembourg and user of their public transportation system. I agree with most of what is said here, with the following observations.
CFL frontline Staff in the Gare Central are flawlessly quadrilingual (EN/FR/LU/DE), whether working in the ticket office or information counter. Staff in the shops, restaurant and toilets there will probably speak just French or Luxembourgish. The situation in the country is complicated by the fact that there are a large number of monolingual francophones working in low graded white collar work in the capital and south of the country. CFL's website is primarily written in French, although there is a German and English option (note no Luxembourgish). The Mobiliteit.lu website - which is much better for transport planning - is entirely in French, as is the vdl.lu website, covering transport in the capital. Staff working on the railways as guards are expected to speak French and German perfectly and to acquire a good level of Luxembourgish within a year. Announcements are made usually in French and occasionally in Luxembourgish, with stations announced in both languages (which often have a slightly different pronunciation). Road signs and building signs are almost always in French only. Road names are 95% French, with a smattering of ‘Luxembourgish only’ road names (Bisserwée/Bisserweg in the Grund district of the capital, for instance). There is an increasing tendency to name streets with a French and a Luxembourgish name.
Like with Poland, the older generation will have an animus towards German and all things German, not shared with the younger generation. There is some anger from the political right towards monolingual French speakers not wanting to learn Luxembourgish - you can send your child to a monolingual private French school, if you so wish. There was a petition to parliament to make the country monolingual Luxembourgish (which was defeated!). Guest workers from Portugal (of which there are many!) generally learn French only, so getting a taxi from the airport will usually result in you cracking open your schoolboy/schoolgirl French (or Portuguese!). Generally, if someone grew up and was (publically) schooled in Luxembourg, they will speak 3 languages fluently. I’m lucky enough to speak reasonable French and German, and a few words of Luxembourgish. Luxembourgish, although they’d hate me for saying this, has about an 80% lexical similarity with German, so if they speak slowly, or if I can read it, I can understand most of what they say. My rule of thumb when entering a shop or a restaurant is to say “Moien” upon entering (“Hello”) and if the person answers “Moien” I know they will almost certainly speak German, as they will in all probability, be a Luxembourgish speaker. If they answer “Bonjour”, they are in all probability a monolingual “transfrontalier” from Arlon or Thionville.
The Wikipedia article cited above probably states it the best - "language choice tends to reflect social class. Members of the upper middle and upper classes tend to prefer French, although Luxembourgish may be used to convey a sense of close identification with one's nationality. German tends to be viewed negatively among the upper class, with the assumption that anyone writing in German has a poor mastery of French. Despite this, a minority of members of the upper class do prefer standard German when corresponding with close relatives. Use of German becomes more prominent the lower down the social scale one goes, followed by Luxembourgish, with French tending to be the least popular among the lower classes"
CFL frontline Staff in the Gare Central are flawlessly quadrilingual (EN/FR/LU/DE), whether working in the ticket office or information counter. Staff in the shops, restaurant and toilets there will probably speak just French or Luxembourgish. The situation in the country is complicated by the fact that there are a large number of monolingual francophones working in low graded white collar work in the capital and south of the country. CFL's website is primarily written in French, although there is a German and English option (note no Luxembourgish). The Mobiliteit.lu website - which is much better for transport planning - is entirely in French, as is the vdl.lu website, covering transport in the capital. Staff working on the railways as guards are expected to speak French and German perfectly and to acquire a good level of Luxembourgish within a year. Announcements are made usually in French and occasionally in Luxembourgish, with stations announced in both languages (which often have a slightly different pronunciation). Road signs and building signs are almost always in French only. Road names are 95% French, with a smattering of ‘Luxembourgish only’ road names (Bisserwée/Bisserweg in the Grund district of the capital, for instance). There is an increasing tendency to name streets with a French and a Luxembourgish name.
Like with Poland, the older generation will have an animus towards German and all things German, not shared with the younger generation. There is some anger from the political right towards monolingual French speakers not wanting to learn Luxembourgish - you can send your child to a monolingual private French school, if you so wish. There was a petition to parliament to make the country monolingual Luxembourgish (which was defeated!). Guest workers from Portugal (of which there are many!) generally learn French only, so getting a taxi from the airport will usually result in you cracking open your schoolboy/schoolgirl French (or Portuguese!). Generally, if someone grew up and was (publically) schooled in Luxembourg, they will speak 3 languages fluently. I’m lucky enough to speak reasonable French and German, and a few words of Luxembourgish. Luxembourgish, although they’d hate me for saying this, has about an 80% lexical similarity with German, so if they speak slowly, or if I can read it, I can understand most of what they say. My rule of thumb when entering a shop or a restaurant is to say “Moien” upon entering (“Hello”) and if the person answers “Moien” I know they will almost certainly speak German, as they will in all probability, be a Luxembourgish speaker. If they answer “Bonjour”, they are in all probability a monolingual “transfrontalier” from Arlon or Thionville.
The Wikipedia article cited above probably states it the best - "language choice tends to reflect social class. Members of the upper middle and upper classes tend to prefer French, although Luxembourgish may be used to convey a sense of close identification with one's nationality. German tends to be viewed negatively among the upper class, with the assumption that anyone writing in German has a poor mastery of French. Despite this, a minority of members of the upper class do prefer standard German when corresponding with close relatives. Use of German becomes more prominent the lower down the social scale one goes, followed by Luxembourgish, with French tending to be the least popular among the lower classes"
This has strayed somewhat from language on trains, although I have always enjoyed the change of language on Belgian train announcements en route (Anvers / Antwerpen or Bruxelles Midi / Brussels Sud depending upon the zone that you are passing through, to say nothing of Lille / Rijsel).
Language and customs are a source of interest; As I understand it 'Flemish' Belgian although often described as Dutch is an old fashioned 'high dutch' version which differs in some respects to the version spoken in the Netherlands; it is also similar in many ways to Afrikaans.
Within the country, visiting shops, bars and looking at design of buildings the Flemish area is very similar to the Netherlands, the Walloon area is similar to France (the pubs close much earlier for one thing!) and the German area in the East has the atmosphere of Germany.
I am always surprised that after centuries or more of living as neighbours there are places where a small stream will separate a community speaking French from one speaking Flemish with their own customs.
Having said that try, nearer home, crossing the bridge at Coldstream from southern focused speakers of Northumbrian to the Scottish accent and customs 50 yards away!
Language and customs are a source of interest; As I understand it 'Flemish' Belgian although often described as Dutch is an old fashioned 'high dutch' version which differs in some respects to the version spoken in the Netherlands; it is also similar in many ways to Afrikaans.
Within the country, visiting shops, bars and looking at design of buildings the Flemish area is very similar to the Netherlands, the Walloon area is similar to France (the pubs close much earlier for one thing!) and the German area in the East has the atmosphere of Germany.
I am always surprised that after centuries or more of living as neighbours there are places where a small stream will separate a community speaking French from one speaking Flemish with their own customs.
Having said that try, nearer home, crossing the bridge at Coldstream from southern focused speakers of Northumbrian to the Scottish accent and customs 50 yards away!
I'd never realised, in all my time hearing it, that the jingle has that significance! (And I have to confess I had not even previously noticed the three variants) Any idea how the three variants correspond to the letters, then?
Interesting stuff!
Most on-train announcements on the Taipei MRT system come in four languages: Mandarin, Taiwanese, Hakka, and English.
Station information screens and signs are all bilingual: Traditional Chinese (the written is the same however pronounced) and English. What is impressive is the way the time to the next train counts down in blocks of five seconds.
Station information screens and signs are all bilingual: Traditional Chinese (the written is the same however pronounced) and English. What is impressive is the way the time to the next train counts down in blocks of five seconds.
axlecounter
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https://stories.sbb.ch/sbb-jingle/2014/05/06/ if needed, Google translate should do a fine enough job.
Basically the letters in the name are the notes played.
??? Where does that come from ?
swt class 450
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Why do the Dutch speaking area staff have to speak French but the French speaking area staff don't have to speak Dutch? What is the reason for this policy?
I am surprised that they have such a policy! It certainly doesn't seem very fair!
Also what is the policy for the Germany speaking area staff? Are they required to speak French and Dutch as well?
I am surprised that they have such a policy! It certainly doesn't seem very fair!
Also what is the policy for the Germany speaking area staff? Are they required to speak French and Dutch as well?
SHD
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Marc and I wrote several detailed posts (*) to shed some light onto the intricacies of language laws in Belgium and their enforcement on federal public services such as the railways, these posts discussed the specific case of German, and what is the result?
Half-truths such as "the Dutch speaking part has to learn french, but the french speaking part not dutch" get spewed completely out of context (Groningen's terse sentence applies to officially-controlled secondary education, not to the railways, and deserves lengthy developments) with, undoubtedly, the aim to sneer at French-speaking Belgians (and probably French people too) in order to depict them as lazy ignoramuses.
I readily acknowledge that the fluency in English/Dutch of the average Frenchman/French-speaking Belgian is perfectible, but this is not a way to foster reasoned debate.
Franse ratten, rol uw matten...
(*) written in what I think is intelligible enough English...
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swt class 450
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What is not clear though is if staff in the German speaking area (so basically just the Eupen station staff) are actually required to speak French and Dutch to be employed. Is this one of the requirements to get employed. Or would they employ someone if they spoke German only.
Belgium is 2 countries in 1. Although it has nothing to do with the railways and language in Belgium there is the following. The french speaking part of Belgium is thinking of a charge of about 90 euro a year if you use their roads. Also payable for the western Dutch speaking part of Belgium.
Aha, merci vielmals!
Requeststop
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Just thinking that within this amazingly disorganized country there are no railways but they have over 800 languages. English and Tok-Pisin and Hiri-Motu are the official languages and understood by nearly everyone.
Announcements in local languages would be an absolute nightmare. I get by with my English but my non-Aussie accent does get some strange looks. When I explain that I am from Britain, I get huge smiles from the locals.
Announcements in local languages would be an absolute nightmare. I get by with my English but my non-Aussie accent does get some strange looks. When I explain that I am from Britain, I get huge smiles from the locals.
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