Moving crowds on match days. Is TfL fit for purpose?

[silverfoxcc]

In 1959 the morning peak service from Enfield Town to Liverpool Street took 40 minutes and there were 6 or 7 services per hour.

In 1960 this was electrified and this increased to 9 per hour on an interval basis.

At 00/20/40 past each hour, the new services from Cheshunt ran non stop from lower Edmonton to Liverpool Street in 16 minutes. at 03/23/43, there was an all stations from Enfield Town and a further 3 at 13/33/53 semi fast; if I recall correctly, it was all stations to Hackney Downs then non stop to Liverpool Street.

Now there are 4 from Enfield at 04/17/34/49 and two at 08/38 from Cheshunt These take 40 minutes; the same as 60 years previously

Even worse since Sadiq Khan has extended the Ultra Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ) and the Spurs Ground is within this, coupled with the draconian parking restrictions by the local councils on match days, more people need to travel by public transport.

To this end on Wednesday, as an example the services after the game ended at 21:50 were the normal 2ph service from Enfield town and similar from Cheshunt.

Surely someone in TfL planning should be able to get a reasonable service to move the crowds after a match? If Khan wants us to ditch our cars and use TfL services he should at least offer something to entice us. Waiting 40mins in a queue at White Hart Lane is not, in my opinion the way to do it, especially as i have seen it can and has been done

There are two (?) sidings and three (?) platforms at Enfield town to get the system rolling, no changing of engines, watering etc, just a driver waiting at the other end or the incoming walking back. Or is it not that simple?

We have better infrastructure and signalling rolling stock but we have not moved forward one inch in 62 and counting years. In fact we have gone backwards.

It really saddens me to see this happening. Doesn't anyone care anymore?

 

[JonathanH]

The Victoria Line has opened since that time and taken a lot of the traffic from both the Enfield Town and Chingford routes. There are more trains to fit in from Stansted and Cambridge between Liverpool Street and Bethnal Green. Enfield Town is never going to have the frequency of service it had in the early 1960s. There simply isn't the capacity.

 

[Ediswan]

In 1959 the 'peak service in the morning with steam from Enfield Town to Liverpool Street took 40 mins and there were 6/7 services ph

In 1960 this was electrified and this increased to 9 per hour on an interval basis at 00/20/40 the new services from Cheshunt ran non stop from lower Edmonton to Liv Sr in 16 mins. at 03/23/43 there was an all stations from Enfield Town and a further 3 at 13/33/53 semi fast IIRC it was all stations to Hackney Downs then non stop to Liv St

Not normally my subject area, but I lived opposite Bush Hill Park station (next stop to Enfield town). I definitely recall the variety of stopping patterns. It kept the station staff busy updating the very manual 'next train calls at' board.

Even worse since Khan has extended to ULEZ and the Spurs Ground is within this couple with the draconian parking restrictions by the local councils on match days more people need to travel by Public transopt To this end on Wednesdamaly as an example the services after the game ended at 21.50 were the normal 2ph service from Enfield town and similar from Cheshunt

Even before parking was controllled, the trains were rammed on a match day (not my thing, just travelling at the same time). If I recall correctly, extra units were attached. Not sure about extra trains.

 

[londonteacher]

Khan has extended to ULEZ

Although Khan did extend, it is important to remember it was not him alone as the DfT also had a hand in it as part of the post covid funding agreement.

Surely someone in TfL planning should be able to get a reasonable service to move the crowds after a match. If Khan wants us to ditch our cars and use TfL services he should at least offer something to entice us. Waiting 40mins in a queue at WHL is not, in my opinion the way to do it, especially as i have seen it can and has been done

It is the job of the railway to try and cater for all of the passengers that these events bring yes, but at the same time if there are staff shortages already then if drivers were removed from other services for the day or evening I’m sure that would not go down well either.

As for the number of trains an hour the 9 in the 1960s would be a ridiculous amount to run on a line like this. As @JonathanH points out the Victoria Line is now in the area and takes much of the load that meant 9 trains an hour was necessary.

 

[Mojo]

Although Khan did extend, it is important to remember it was not him alone as the DfT also had a hand in it as part of the post covid funding agreement.

The Ulez extension to the North and South Circular roads is nothing do do with the DfT funding settlement, initially proposed by Khan in late 2017 and implemented October 2021.

 

[The exile]

Not normally my subject area, but I lived opposite Bush Hill Park station (next stop to Enfield town). I definitely recall the variety of stopping patterns. It kept the station staff busy updating the very manual 'next train calls at' board.


Even before parking was controllled, the trains were rammed on a match day (not my thing, just travelling at the same time). If I recall correctly, extra units were attached. Not sure about extra trains.

If any organisation (FA) organises events likely to involve the movement of 10s of thousands of people in a short period of time without liaising with transport providers (and if necessary underwriting costs) they are equally culpable, but then, as we all know, there’s no money in football….

 

[deltic]

Train service should match demand and since peak travel into Liverpool Street has halved from pre-Covid the question is does the present level of service do that.

Extension of ULEZ has very little impact on car use - at least 90% of them were already compliant when it was introduced.

Most fans walk to Seven Sisters and now Northumberland Park also has far more services than in the past

 

[XAM2175]

If any organisation (FA) organises events likely to involve the movement of 10s of thousands of people in a short period of time without liaising with transport providers (and if necessary underwriting costs) they are equally culpable, but then, as we all know, there’s no money in football….

Is there any mandatory co-operation requirement for events over a certain size? I remember being told that some places abroad attach planning conditions etc to major venues with the aim of ensuring big events are planned alongside the transport for them.

 

[deltic]

Is there any mandatory co-operation requirement for events over a certain size? I remember being told that some places abroad attach planning conditions etc to major venues with the aim of ensuring big events are planned alongside the transport for them.

No - conditions generally relate to providing infrastructure to cope with additional demand eg facilities at White Hart Lane Station were enhanced to cope with the larger stadium but not in relation to providing services to operate as they are usually outside the control of the stadium owner.

 

[ijmad]

Surely someone in TfL planning should be able to get a reasonable service to move the crowds after a match? If Khan wants us to ditch our cars and use TfL services he should at least offer something to entice us. Waiting 40mins in a queue at White Hart Lane is not, in my opinion the way to do it, especially as i have seen it can and has been done

How much control do you think TfL have over scheduling trains on National Rail infrastructure?

 

[SargeNpton]

How much control do you think TfL have over scheduling trains on National Rail infrastructure?

Well, quite a bit if it's London Overground or the Elizabeth line.

There is the wider question of why arranging timetables for major events seems more difficult now than it did in the past - I'm thinking in particular of Wembley Central for events at the stadium, and Birmingham International for evening concerts. All the close cooperation between the event organisers, the Police and the railway seem to have been thrown out of the window.

 

[87015]

There is the wider question of why arranging timetables for major events seems more difficult now than it did in the past - I'm thinking in particular of Wembley Central for events at the stadium, and Birmingham International for evening concerts. All the close cooperation between the event organisers, the Police and the railway seem to have been thrown out of the window.

Cost is much more relevant than any co-operation...

 

[Starmill]

You don't say where you needed to travel, but I note that there were a significant number of additional departures from Northumberland Park after the match, as is typical.

2140 to Cambridge North
2144 to London Liverpool Street
2146 to Bishops Stortford
2150 to London Liverpool Street
2156 to Hertford East
2200 to London Liverpool Street
2207 to London Liverpool Street
2212 to Cambridge
2214 to London Liverpool Street
2225 to Stratford
2226 to Broxbourne
2230 to London Liverpool Street
2237 to London Liverpool Street
2243 to Cambridge North
2244 to London Liverpool Street
2248 to Bishops Stortford
2256 to Broxbourne
2300 to London Liverpool Street
2307 to London Liverpool Street
2312 to Cambridge
2314 to London Liverpool Street
2326 to Broxbourne
2330 to London Liverpool Street
2337 to London Liverpool Street
2343 to Cambridge
2344 to London Liverpool Street
0013 to Bishops Stortford

... in addition to the usual service from Northumberland Park. Quite a lot of extra capacity I'm sure you'll agree. Albeit those which are five car 720s not quite so much.

It does seem rather poor there's no scope to run 2207 and 2237 London Liverpool Street to Enfield Town to relieve that route after matches of this time. I'm sure this used to be done in the past?

If it's really really bad and you're going to Enfield, perhaps you can try catching the bus or walking to Bowes Park, though I admit that may be too far for some people. Or walk to Turnpike Lane and catch the bus from Oakwood.

 

[306024]

From memory the old White Hart Lane ground used to have a capacity of around 37,000. The new ground is close to 63,000. That is a huge increase.

Regardless of cost (which shouldn’t be a factor when crowd management and safety is a far more important issue) London Overground has limited resources for additional trains at White Hart Lane, so much of the burden for the additional numbers falls on GA at Northumberland Park.

 

[DJS76]

I regularly attend matches at the stadium and always use Northumberland Park to head back into London. Part of the reason for this is I sit in the south stand and so exit onto Park Lane making it easier to walk straight down to the station, albeit you have to take the ridiculous ramp over the railways as they shut the much shorter staircase. Going southbound after the games is much easier as you can just catch the first train but northbound always looks a bit of a nightmare. People are held on the street in one northbound queue but the problem is you could be waiting for a Hertford train but can't get onto the platform as it might be full of people waiting for a Cambridge train but don't want the train that is actually in the platform. It seems to be managed much better now than when the stadium opened but I avoid White Hart Lane Station unless it's the only option

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From memory the old White Hart Lane ground used to have a capacity of around 37,000. The new ground is close to 63,000. That is a huge increase.

Yep. Increase from 36,284 before demolition of the old stadium to 62,850 now. That's a significant uplift.

 

[Mikey C]

Maybe Spurs should cough up some money towards extra services post match? Personally (as an away fan at the old stadium), I always walked to Seven Sisters anyway.

One issue for rail companies is that matches don't always finish on time. Get a couple of major injuries, and suddenly the game can finish over 5 minutes later than expected, which can make a difference to what time people start arriving at a station, and which trains are busier.

 

[Starmill]

There are various football clubs who pay specifically for extra trains or even free shuttle bus services as part of their "community engagement". Is there no similar thing here?

If the clubs can't be convinced then it's worth looking at changing the law so that very large events would be forced to charge say an additional £2.50 per ticket to fund better transport options. Of course that would hit concerts and things as well as football.

 

[bluegoblin7]

There are two (?) sidings and three (?) platforms at Enfield town to get the system rolling, no changing of engines, watering etc, just a driver waiting at the other end or the incoming walking back. Or is it not that simple?

There are no sidings at Enfield, although you are correct about there being three platforms. It certainly isn't that simple, though.

 

[DJS76]

There are various football clubs who pay specifically for extra trains or even free shuttle bus services as part of their "community engagement". Is there no similar thing here?

If the clubs can't be convinced then it's worth looking at changing the law so that very large events would be forced to charge say an additional £2.50 per ticket to fund better transport options. Of course that would hit concerts and things as well as football.

They run various shuttle buses to other parts of North London, I think there is one to connect with the Piccadilly line at Wood Green. I think there was some sort of plan in place to run Victoria Line trains in service to the depot at Northumberland Park on match days but think it worked out too expensive

 

[deltic]

There are various football clubs who pay specifically for extra trains or even free shuttle bus services as part of their "community engagement". Is there no similar thing here?

Interested to know which clubs pay for extra trains

 

[paul1609]

Down in Fratton GWR control always send out a 2 car dmu after home matches vice 5 but we do have a football special hovercraft to the island.

 

[Starmill]

Interested to know which clubs pay for extra trains

Brighton & Hove Albion was the example I had in mind. Match tickets include rail travel from a range of stations to Falmer. Away ticket holders receive a discount rate on the train.

There's another example I think but I'm afraid I've forgotten it.

 

[Geml246]

Last season there were match day extra services, both before & post match on London Overground from White Hart Lane Station, but presume these have become a casualty of overtime & rest day working issues. However there are still plenty of other travel routes available - Northumberland Park for GA services for both Liverpool Street & Stratford southbound plus various northbound destinations,Victoria Line from Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters, shuttle buses to Wood Green Underground station & Alexandra Palace NR station, plus coach services to multiple destinations.Also there are normal TFL buses once the road closures are re-opened.

 

[BJames]

There are usually extra services (the amount of which vary) between Enfield and Liverpool Street on matchdays, and I'm sure there was some a couple of weeks back although it may be last season that I'm thinking of. Usually though this is 2 per hour in each direction. An example of recent calling patterns pre-match that I can remember:
Southbound, pre-match
Standard 2tph all stations Enfield-Liv St
Standard 2tph all stations Cheshunt-Liv St
Additional 2tph from Enfield Town calling at Bush Hill Park, Edmonton Green, Silver Street, White Hart Lane (additional dwell time of 2 or 3 minutes), Seven Sisters, Hackney Downs (sometimes omitted, sometimes Bethnal Green is also called at) and Liverpool Street.
Northbound, pre-match
Standard 2tph all stations Liv St-Enfield
Standard 2tph all stations Liv St-Cheshunt
Additional 2tph all stations Liv St-White Hart Lane and then Enfield Town

After the match,
Standard 2tph to and from both branches;
Additional 2tph Enfield Town, White Hart Lane then all stations to Liv St
Additional 2tph either Liv St, non-stop to White Hart Lane and then all stations to Enfield, or

Sometimes the additional White Hart Lane to London is out of service from Enfield and enters in service at White Hart Lane, and sometimes calls Seven Sisters/Hackney/Liv St only.

It normally works a lot better when there's at least a couple of extra services, and if there are not then I absolutely avoid Seven Sisters and Liv St when I can before or after a match if I'm travelling home. When it's a match that starts around the peak times there will be no extra trains but Hertford East trains will get a calling point added at White Hart Lane in compensation.

 

[riceuten]

This strikes me as a thread that someone who has an intense dislike of the Mayor, and then goes looking for reasons to prove his theory.

To engage in a tricky gear shift from the inadequacy of post football transport to saying TfL is "unfit for purpose" is quite a stretch rhetorically and politically.

 

[gazzaa2]

Not ideal if you have mobility issues but I find the walk to Seven Sisters easier from WHL and you're straight into Euston/Kings Cross on the tube in 15 minutes.