Multiple fraud counts

[Fare-Cop]

I'm not asking for any advice to fight it as I'm aware I broke the law, but what should I expect with this many charges. Most are London midland tickets. What sort of fine should I expect, or should I be expecting a court summons?

I notice that you've mentioned 'Most are London Midland tickets'

Was this incident dealt with by London Midland staff, or another company?

I only ask because some TOCs are more likely to take a more lenient view than others.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It has always baffled me why people bother to show ID when all one is required to give is their name and address. I personally would not like the idea of someone taking down details like my passport or driving licence number.

If an RPI has a reasonable suspicion that inaccurate, or false, details have been given, they will always ask for confirmation and that doesn't have to be something as formal as a driver's licence etc.

Neither do they HAVE to write down the details (although it might be good practice) simply confirming they have seen it and possibly recording nothing more than a serial number from passport (which only confirms name anyway) and perhaps say 'photo driver's licence confirmed a good likeness and the name & address given'.

There are a host of less formal items that can satisfy an inspector's request for confirmation of identity and if a traveller is on a railway without a valid ticket when they could have obtained one, or if any other offence is identified, National Railway Byelaw 23 (2005) makes a strict liability requirement that that person gives their details when asked.

 

[Puffing Devil]

An RPI can ask for proof of identity - there is no need to provide that proof.

Be aware that your attitude and co-operation will have a bearing on how the RPI proceeds.

 

[gray1404]

Its actually quite surprising how many people think that a child ticket means someone under the age of 18 and that upon reaching your 18th birthday you become an adult and thus require an adult ticket. In short, I am wondering how many other 16-17 years are travelling on the wrong type of tickets and genuinely have no idea of their wrong doing. I had to correct my cousin last week who is 16 1/2. She has been travelling on child tickets thinking she had another 18 months left of the privilege. This conversation only came up because she was denied a child ticket at a booking office and she felt most wronged. She was canny enough to walk away and use the TMV instead in the genuine belief who was entitled to the discount. In the case of the OP here, they are 18 years of age so this therefore could not apply to them.

 

[Fare-Cop]

An RPI can ask for proof of identity - there is no need to provide that proof.

Be aware that your attitude and co-operation will have a bearing on how the RPI proceeds.

Absolutely correct and exactly why I said 'if the inspector has a reasonable suspicion' they may ask to see confirmation.

A great many people think that if they give false details that will be the end of things so far as the incident is concerned, they will not be found out and it's only a minor matter anyway.

In doing so, if the staff question further and the false information is discovered, (much easier these days than it used to be) all the traveller has done is turned a ticket irregularity, that might have been dealt with easily and by civil process, into a guarantee of prosecution for a recordable offence contrary S.5.3.C of RoRA (1889).

 

[najaB]

Its actually quite surprising how many people think that a child ticket means someone under the age of 18 and that upon reaching your 18th birthday you become an adult and thus require an adult ticket.

As you said, of little relevance to the OP, but I'd be surprised if there's that high a percentage of 16 and 17 year-olds who genuinely believe it to be the case that they can travel on a child ticket since buses have the same policy and airlines charge adult rates from age 12+. Cinemas are typically 15 or 16 as well.

 

[jimbo99]

something as formal as a driver's licence etc.

I suppose you might have one if you're Australian.

Personally I make do with my driving licence, though it doesn't have a photo on it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Cinemas are typically 15 or 16 as well.

Cinemas are 15, to tie-in with the 15 film certificate. They overlook there is an 18 certificate and it could be that!

 

[tony_mac]

As you said, of little relevance to the OP, but I'd be surprised if there's that high a percentage of 16 and 17 year-olds who genuinely believe it to be the case that they can travel on a child ticket since buses have the same policy

Although not in Merseyside, where it is under 19 (still of little relevance).

 

[jon0844]

It would be nice for consistency when it comes to defining an adult or child price for tickets.

 

[30907]

Although not in Merseyside, where it is under 19 (still of little relevance).

For certain types of ticket only according to the website. And remember that those products do not attract railcard discount.

 

[paddington]

I suppose you might have one if you're Australian.

Personally I make do with my driving licence, though it doesn't have a photo on it.

Australians have driver licences.

It's Americans who have driver's licenses.

 

[Deerfold]

For certain types of ticket only according to the website. And remember that those products do not attract railcard discount.

In West Yorkshire it's up to the beginning of September after your 18th birthday with the right pass. And those tickets do attract railcard discounts.

 

[Haywain]

And you can vote at 18 and drive at 17. All of which has nothing to do with the absolutely consistent approach of the National Rail network which is that child fares apply between and including the ages of 5 and 15. Every other undertaking is entitled to choose the point where the cut-off is and there is no requirement for consistency.

 

[sheff1]

And you can vote at 18 and drive at 17. All of which has nothing to do with the absolutely consistent approach of the National Rail network which is that child fares apply between and including the ages of 5 and 15. Every other undertaking is entitled to choose the point where the cut-off is and there is no requirement for consistency.

Despite what they may claim, London Overground is part of the National Rail network but does not adopt a child fare policy which is "absolutely consistent" with other National Rail operators.

 

[MikeWh]

Despite what they may claim, London Overground is part of the National Rail network but does not adopt a child fare policy which is "absolutely consistent" with other National Rail operators.

Not just London Overground. The same applies to any TOC whose zonal fares are set by TfL. And also, any 16 or 17 year old with a zip Oyster card gets half adult fares/caps on all transport in the Oyster area.

 

[Deerfold]

And you can vote at 18 and drive at 17. All of which has nothing to do with the absolutely consistent approach of the National Rail network which is that child fares apply between and including the ages of 5 and 15. Every other undertaking is entitled to choose the point where the cut-off is and there is no requirement for consistency.

You appear to have posted this immediately after the post where I pointed out that West Yorkshire fares are inconsistent for 16-18 year olds.

 

[30907]

In West Yorkshire it's up to the beginning of September after your 18th birthday with the right pass. And those tickets do attract railcard discounts.

My bold. Having a special pass, even if it costs nothing, makes it clear that it's a special arrangement - just as in the olden days I had a half-fare season ticket for each school term, which required some form-filling (or as today's full-time mature student can have a 16-25 railcard, more form-filling).

 

[Deerfold]

My bold. Having a special pass, even if it costs nothing, makes it clear that it's a special arrangement - just as in the olden days I had a half-fare season ticket for each school term, which required some form-filling (or as today's full-time mature student can have a 16-25 railcard, more form-filling).

Of course it's a special arrangement.

That doesn't stop it being an inconsistency.

 

[455driver]

Of course it's a special arrangement.

That doesn't stop it being an inconsistency.

It is only inconsistant if you have the pass so you would be fully aware of the 'special' arrangements, if you dont have the pass then its consistant with the 'normal' arrangements.

 

[najaB]

That doesn't stop it being an inconsistency.

It's not an inconsistency, as you said it is a special arrangement.

 

[Deerfold]

It's not an inconsistency, as you said it is a special arrangement.

If you travel from Keighley to Steeton and Silsden by train you pay the child fare.
If you travel from Keighley to Steeton and Silsden by bus you pay the child fare.
If you travel from Keighley to Skipton by bus you pay the child fare.
If you travel from Keighley to Skipton by train you pay the adult fare.

That looks inconsistent and I could understand why people might get it wrong

 

[najaB]

If you travel from Keighley to Steeton and Silsden by train you pay the child fare.
If you travel from Keighley to Steeton and Silsden by bus you pay the child fare.
If you travel from Keighley to Skipton by bus you pay the child fare.
If you travel from Keighley to Skipton by train you pay the adult fare.

That looks inconsistent and I could understand why people might get it wrong

Unless I've misunderstood the situation, you've left out 'with a pass' from the descriptions of a couple of those scenarios.

 

[MartinG]

Unless I've misunderstood the situation, you've left out 'with a pass' from the descriptions of a couple of those scenarios.

Indeed and if you are travelling KEI - SKI with any West Yorkshire concession then it is split at SON

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to discuss whether or not the age for child fares should increase, or any other debate about child fares, please use this thread: My idea to raise the age limit for child fares

If anyone wishes to reply to an off-topic post, please either reply via PM or create a new thread (if a suitable thread doesn't already exist), where appropriate. Thanks.

ccfc1883 - if you have any updates to post, or wish to seek further assistance, please send me a PM to request this thread be unlocked.