My idea for Sheffield to London to become driverless

[Tiny Tim]

Whether the technology to operate driverless high speed trains exists is not really the question, if someone (the government, Network Rail) wanted to develop it, they would. As the preceding posts reveal, there is very strong opposition to driverless trains, some of it reasoned, some of it less so. It's such a political hot potato that nobody is going to pursue it presently. It's more to do with politics than technology.

 

[GB]

But you trust it to brake your car (ABS) and to stop trains running through red lights? Use it for internet banking and to store your most precious photographs.

Depends on your definition of technology I suppose.

Slight differences between the examples you have given and a driverless train running at 100+mph!

 

[krisk]

The UK govt doesn't develop technology it imports it

 

[4SRKT]

Once we have a completely employee-less society then nobody will have any money and nobody will be able to afford to travel by train so we won't need trains anymore. Not that anyone in the Brave New World where only the managing directors have jobs will have much need to travel anywhere anyway.

 

[krisk]

We shall all work from home then.

 

[DarloRich]

make a sentance from these words:

the asylum the taking over lunatics are

Whilst the technology for driverless trains may exist in trial units or prototypes I do not think there will be a time any time soon when a driverless train appears on the main line network. It is one thing on a closed system but very hard to incorporate the technology onto the varied user, varied traction, varied age infrastructure rail system.

It is easily to imagine some form of “hands off control” as per the Airline industry but making the public accept long distance high speed travel on a train without any form of attendant is a rather large step. Personally, I would be happier knowing a fellow human (or at least a driver !) has the opportunity to step in and take over if needed.

 

[Metroland]

It may be the only game in those towns Ian,but resignalling is taking place in several locations,one of which, the Blackpool electrification project,will not involve ERTMS.

Most of the new signalling interlockings going in now have a migration path to ERTMS. The national implementation plan is here:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/etcs.aspx

 

[D6975]

Surely this will go the same way as modern jet airliners. They're capable of flying themselves, (recently it was on the news that one had landed itself after an incident on board), but they still have a pilot on board responsible for the plane.

 

[Toots]

Most of the new signalling interlockings going in now have a migration path to ERTMS. The national implementation plan is here:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/rail/...ional_deployment_plans/united_kingdom_ndp.pdf

I don't doubt they have,but IanXC appeared to be saying that that was the method of signalling that was being adopted by Network Rail in general ('the only game in town') when in fact even looking at the document you have produced here,it will not really make significant inroads for several years.In fact there is very little mention of ERTMS in the Network Rail reorganistion that will see all the signalling controlled from twelve centres across the UK.
I often hear about the migration paths to different methods of signalling,but ERTMS in it's competed form doesn't use lineside signals at all,which is what I think is being mooted on this thread with driverless trains,and I think that is a long way off in all it's forms,that said trends and ideas change seemingly from week to week so you never know.........

 

[Michael.Y]

Surely this will go the same way as modern jet airliners. They're capable of flying themselves, (recently it was on the news that one had landed itself after an incident on board), but they still have a pilot on board responsible for the plane.

So, in other words, ATO / Vic Line stylee.

 

[whoosh]

Spending BILLIONS of pounds we haven't got, on experimenting with a robot driving a train?
How many minutes booking-on time are we going to give him to update Acrobat Reader so he can read his notices? Oh, we've got a new version of the Rule Book....

Checking for updates....
Installing....
Veryfying.....
Validating........
Initiating..............
Updating..................

You need to Restart your railway for updates to take effect.....


When will the train actually move?

Or just put a person at the front!

 

[exile]

Spending BILLIONS of pounds we haven't got, on experimenting with a robot driving a train?
How many minutes booking-on time are we going to give him to update Acrobat Reader so he can read his notices? Oh, we've got a new version of the Rule Book....

Checking for updates....
Installing....
Veryfying.....
Validating........
Initiating..............
Updating..................

You need to Restart your railway for updates to take effect.....


When will the train actually move?

Or just put a person at the front!

Not a good argument. Modern trains already rely 99% on computers and other electronic systems such as signalling.

 

[gerryuk]

I do not believe that having driverless trains would mean job losses! I do not want anybody in any industry to loose their job.
I believe that the tube have told their drivers that if they are driving the tube today, they will still be drivers for the rest of their careers. However as driverless trains are fazed in, they will no longer be training people up in that role.
More about the tube here -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ted-on-jubilee-line-from-october-7956006.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18885108

If the government were to announce today that they wanted the railways to become driverless within the next 50 years, wouldn't this create jobs?
Why does everybody assume that introducing new technology automatically means job losses?
If this new technology was introduced, we would need new trains, new signaling, new control rooms, wouldn't this create jobs?

More technology, better up to date computerized signaling systems and less inefficiency could result in more trains on the tracks. More trains would mean more guards, more cleaners, more people working in depots to maintain these trains, more jobs.

Either we stand still as a nation protecting the 'status quo' or we embrace new technology and move forward.
One poster on here said that we should not consider driverless trains because the Japanese are not.
This is Great Britain, as a country we should be at the forefront of innovation, we should be 'reaching for the stars' we need to embrace new technology head on, or as a nation we will continue to stagnate.

 

[paul1609]

What, and not allow any other trains to run on this route? Driverless trains work well on a system where all the trains are the same, not on a mixed traffic railway.

But at what cost? Go on, give a rough estimate?

It's just not feasible.

No they shouldn't.

Not at all. ATO has been on the Victoria Line since 1968! That's 44 years ago.

No, because it is unthinkable. But when someone comes out with this in their opening post, alarm bells start ringing!

i think that MML may be someway off but the Dubai Metro (46 route miles speed up to 55 mph with 43 stations) proves that something like merseyrail or valley lines would be possible today. From a point of view of cost with driver supervision systems such as ERTMS so expensive NDO has to be the way forward.

 

[HSTEd]

i think that MML may be someway off but the Dubai Metro (46 route miles speed up to 55 mph with 43 stations) proves that something like merseyrail or valley lines would be possible today. From a point of view of cost with driver supervision systems such as ERTMS so expensive NDO has to be the way forward.

Yes, Dubai Metro is also entirely on viaducts or in tunnels with PEDs all over the place.

Not many opportunities for obstructions to find their way onto the track, the Valley Lines are not like this.

 

[paul1609]

Yes, Dubai Metro is also entirely on viaducts or in tunnels with PEDs all over the place.

Not many opportunities for obstructions to find their way onto the track, the Valley Lines are not like this.

I think you'd need enhanced fencing (probably required for electrification anyway) but I don't really see that running on the surface is a problem. The DLR has taken over several heavy rail surface routes with no problem and of course on the approach to Stratford runs on the same formation as the GE main Line.

 

[IanXC]

I don't doubt they have,but IanXC appeared to be saying that that was the method of signalling that was being adopted by Network Rail in general ('the only game in town') when in fact even looking at the document you have produced here,it will not really make significant inroads for several years.In fact there is very little mention of ERTMS in the Network Rail reorganistion that will see all the signalling controlled from twelve centres across the UK.
I often hear about the migration paths to different methods of signalling,but ERTMS in it's competed form doesn't use lineside signals at all,which is what I think is being mooted on this thread with driverless trains,and I think that is a long way off in all it's forms,that said trends and ideas change seemingly from week to week so you never know.........

The context was 'the future of signalling', beyond renewals being undertaken at the current specification, I cannot see that any more advanced signalling system installed on Network Rail's metals will not be ERTMS. Just because they are not installing this system now does not mean that it is the eventual aim!

If driverless trains are to happen on Network Rail metals at some time in the future, I cannot see that this will be before widespread rollout of ERTMS, and in fact if it is to happen (which I am far from convinced of) it will surely use ERTMS as part of the system.

 

[34D]

Spoke to a friend at Network Rail today (who works on MML signalling among other things. The plan is just to string the wires up and essentially leave the S&T as it is.

We shall see.

I agree that ATO is something that will happen on our main lines fairly soon, but not driverless, for the reasons given.

 

[Clip]

Spending BILLIONS of pounds we haven't got, on experimenting with a robot driving a train?
How many minutes booking-on time are we going to give him to update Acrobat Reader so he can read his notices? Oh, we've got a new version of the Rule Book....

Checking for updates....
Installing....
Veryfying.....
Validating........
Initiating..............
Updating..................

You need to Restart your railway for updates to take effect.....


When will the train actually move?

Or just put a person at the front!

Whilst I'm not sure if your post is tongue in cheek or not , you dont seem to grasp how driverless trains actually operate.

 

[notadriver]

Not a good argument. Modern trains already rely 99% on computers and other electronic systems such as signalling.

Whilst that's true there are no electronic systems that tell a main line driver when to slow down for the next station for example.

 

[jopsuk]

Not on (mostof) our railway system, but plenty of countries do run in-cab speed signalling that I'm pretty sure can give drivers target speeds on approach to stations

 

[Dieseldriver]

Not a good argument. Modern trains already rely 99% on computers and other electronic systems such as signalling.

Do you actually have knowledge of railway infrastructure and rolling stock?

 

[whhistle]

Slight differences between the examples you have given and a driverless train running at 100+mph!

:P Perhaps.
But with planes doing more than 500mph, there isn't. Should have used that example

Whilst that's true there are no electronic systems that tell a main line driver when to slow down for the next station for example.

Not yet. But it's easy enough to implement.


But then this is the rail industry all over isn't it; driverless trains = job losses.
Not necessarily. As stated before, the auto trains in Japan / China don't have drivers as such, their role is purely monitoring the line ahead for any trouble.

 

[GB]

:P Perhaps.
But with planes doing more than 500mph, there isn't. Should have used that example
.

But there are still two highly trained pilots there to take over should something go wrong.

 

[notadriver]

But then this is the rail industry all over isn't it; driverless trains = job losses.
Not necessarily. As stated before, the auto trains in Japan / China don't have drivers as such, their role is purely monitoring the line ahead for any trouble.

Do you mean like this Japanese high speed train?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKNsBCwYfiQ&sns=em

Seems manually driven to me.