My idea: Replace Worcester Foregate with cable car to Shrub Hill

[CaptainHaddock]

 

[jimm]

Then the chord to Shrub Hill diverges, again on embankment, I don't think the line here was ever dual track

Yes, it was double track un oil the 1970s rationalisation.

 

[takno]

As someone who has used both stations for commuting and travelling in all available directions from Worcester for well over 15 years I can categorically say that both Worcester stations need the order to survive. The thought of closing either, even with parkway, doesn't bear thinking about.
...
There are 5 platforms at Shrub hill (1 A/B, 2 A/B, 3). Not unusual to see all platforms occupied in the peak. Platforms 1 and 2 can take an HST with room to spare, platform 3 is a little odd, mostly used for stabling now. The old motorail platform is still there - shuttle to parkway any one?

Completely agree. Surprisingly the last time I departed from Shrub Hill was from platform 3, which I'd not used for about 30 years prior to that. Which one is the old Motorail platform? I'm guessing it's what I always knew as the parcels bays, although my understanding was that they were getting filled in last year.

 

[Harbornite]

As if you think closing Foregate Street is somehow a good idea. Put the crayons away, you clearly haven't thought any of this through!

 

[Tim M]

Can I just mention the Brunel problem, change of gauge. Having to change between two trains or between two modes of transport, particularly with baggage will put the travelling public off the whole experience. A ropeway, sorry a non starter.

The new Parkway station will change the dynamic of travel in the area. Just think if you live on the east or south side of the city and commute to Brum, where will you catch your train? Not in the city but the Parkway station.

 

[MarkyT]

The new Parkway station will change the dynamic of travel in the area. Just think if you live on the east or south side of the city and commute to Brum, where will you catch your train? Not in the city but the Parkway station.

If you can drive and have a car you have sole use of and can leave all day at the station, or can get a lift to the parkway station, or afford a taxi that far out. Of course it will attract a proportion of the Birmingham commuter trade, which might threaten to overwhelm the limited XC Cardiff train service that is planned to stop there when the main line platforms open.

 

[AndrewE]

As if you think closing Foregate Street is somehow a good idea. Put the crayons away, you clearly haven't thought any of this through!

Can I just mention the Brunel problem, change of gauge. Having to change between two trains or between two modes of transport, particularly with baggage will put the travelling public off the whole experience. A ropeway, sorry a non starter.

If you can drive and have a car you have sole use of and can leave all day at the station, or can get a lift to the parkway station, or afford a taxi that far out. Of course it will attract a proportion of the Birmingham commuter trade, which might threaten to overwhelm the limited XC Cardiff train service that is planned to stop there when the main line platforms open.

I suggest that we ignore the topic title from now on! No-one (apart from the OP) is suggesting closing either station! The rest of us agree that both are needed, and that more (i.e. reinstated) track would improve the current situation.
Some of us think that it would be good if the two stations could be linked in a way that didn't get in the way of current or improved train services, was easy to use and didn't add to traffic congestion or pollution. Just not a cable car, for lots of reasons!

 

[Pokelet]

Yes, it was double track un oil the 1970s rationalisation.

A bit before my time so I stand corrected, I've traveled over it and walked under it more times than i can imagine, the bridge over railway walk seems very narrow.

Completely agree. Surprisingly the last time I departed from Shrub Hill was from platform 3, which I'd not used for about 30 years prior to that. Which one is the old Motorail platform? I'm guessing it's what I always knew as the parcels bays, although my understanding was that they were getting filled in last year.

Platform 3 is rarely used now, the Wessex/FGW Gloucester bound services used to depart from there. Local door only if I remember correctly.

The siding beyond stables an HST or two over night.

The motorail platform could well be the parcels bay, London end of platform 1? Accessed by the other staff car park. I favour Foregate street now so haven't paced the platform at SH for a while.

The new Parkway station will change the dynamic of travel in the area. Just think if you live on the east or south side of the city and commute to Brum, where will you catch your train? Not in the city but the Parkway station.

Possibly, but not for a few years. Any one on the west of the city will be better off staying where they are in the city. Getting to Parkway for these people will mean sitting for an age with all those heading for the motorway across the Carrington bridge. When and if this gets turned to dual carriageway to Powick it makes sense. Parkway is ideal for those the other side of the motorway. If I'm relying on making the 2 hourly Cardiff train to get to BHM I'll be heading for Foregate as it sees 5 trains to brum between 7am and half 8 and connects (just!) With a sixth.

If you live in Pershore or the surrounding villages, yes, you will love Parkway.

As if you think closing Foregate Street is somehow a good idea. Put the crayons away, you clearly haven't thought any of this through!

Quite agree.

I said a few pages back, the way to improve capacity in the Worcester area lies further afield. The single track from Stoke Works to Droitwich and the long signal sections don't help. In the other direction(s), the single line from Norton to Evesham hampers the 2 hour to London goal and the single line from Malvern Wells to almost Hereford with a pursuing loop at Ledbury poses a significant geological problem.

Once all that's sorted a slightly more modern signalling system will be in order.

 

[The Ham]

Can I just mention the Brunel problem, change of gauge. Having to change between two trains or between two modes of transport, particularly with baggage will put the travelling public off the whole experience. A ropeway, sorry a non starter.

The new Parkway station will change the dynamic of travel in the area. Just think if you live on the east or south side of the city and commute to Brum, where will you catch your train? Not in the city but the Parkway station.

A lot of the resistance of passengers to change modes of transport is down to wait time for the connecting services, or the risk of missing a connection.

Likewise the change of trains from one guage to another was something that increased journey times.

Neither of which would be the case IF a cable car was used, as connection times would be a minute or two and journey times wouldn't be slower (as either you save yourself a walk or you could get an earlier train to/from the "wrong" station).

I would expect that IF it were to exist, then there would be a lot of use of it, especially if you could use it for free with a train ticket or for a few pounds without.

I know when I went to the Alps I used cable cars just so that I could see another view/area. High level vantage points tend to attract tourists, for instance the London Eye doesn't get you anywhere other than your stay point, charges a reasonable amount of money, yet is fairly busy.

Likewise I've thought about traveling an hour to get to London to go on the cable car across the Thames, with the view to find something else to do to make it a day trip.

 

[Harbornite]

I suggest that we ignore the topic title from now on! No-one (apart from the OP) is suggesting closing either station! The rest of us agree that both are needed, and that more (i.e. reinstated) track would improve the current situation.

But the whole point of the thread is the OP trying to justify the closure of WOF by installing a cable car, a truly crap idea for many reasons that have been said by others.

 

[takno]

A lot of the resistance of passengers to change modes of transport is down to wait time for the connecting services, or the risk of missing a connection.

Likewise the change of trains from one guage to another was something that increased journey times.

Neither of which would be the case IF a cable car was used, as connection times would be a minute or two and journey times wouldn't be slower (as either you save yourself a walk or you could get an earlier train to/from the "wrong" station).

I would expect that IF it were to exist, then there would be a lot of use of it, especially if you could use it for free with a train ticket or for a few pounds without.

I know when I went to the Alps I used cable cars just so that I could see another view/area. High level vantage points tend to attract tourists, for instance the London Eye doesn't get you anywhere other than your stay point, charges a reasonable amount of money, yet is fairly busy.

Likewise I've thought about traveling an hour to get to London to go on the cable car across the Thames, with the view to find something else to do to make it a day trip.

I choose trains because they are well-established, safe, not-at-all claustrophobic, and feel less like you are moving than most other modes of transport. I'd say it's a pretty massive leap to believe I actively want to go from there to standing with my luggage in a moving queue ready jump into a tiny moving box with strangers, dangling at a scary height over a mildly picturesque city I've seen a million times before. I honestly assumed up until this point that you were joking, but I'm starting to see that you are not.

 

[squizzler]

I suggest that we ignore the topic title from now on! No-one (apart from the OP) is suggesting closing either station! The rest of us agree that both are needed, and that more (i.e. reinstated) track would improve the current situation.
Some of us think that it would be good if the two stations could be linked in a way that didn't get in the way of current or improved train services, was easy to use and didn't add to traffic congestion or pollution. Just not a cable car, for lots of reasons!

I fully agree that I am not going to persuade people of the merits of a single station, so am happy for the thread to focus more on people movers. Personally I still feel the benefits to operations and, yes - passengers, of a single hub station outweigh the disadvantages and would reverse a historical aberration.

I also still feel the cablecar has merit between Shrub Hill and the centre for reasons outlined in original post and #142. I don't agree with you about linking the two stations, as the stations don't generate the traffic per se. In fact to even consider linking two stations on the same line with a people mover demonstrates, in my view, the absurdity of retaining two stations so close to each other.

Squizzler,
You'll have fun persuading Worcester City to approve that, considering that the western end is right next to a major Conservation Area!
Again, do some research before making suggestions.

Getting right to the doorstep of the established city core is a feature not a bug, right? I have a modicum of knowledge here, having been involved in planning. Conservation areas are not intended to be preserved in aspic, but rather any development should be especially mindful of the character and pattern of what is there already. Many might be surprised how progressive some conservationists can be, and many will prefer a modern building of the correct proportions to a pastiche of the historic structures. In short, I cannot really say what the heritage angle on my proposal would be. And of course if this idea were by any chance adopted the promotors would work out themselves the best route for a gondola.

Closing foregate then means that you are inconveniencing hundreds on a daily basis who would have to sail through the former station and take a separate mass transit route back or walk through a less than nice part of town.

This is a characteristic of heavy, or mainline, rail. It works most effectively when traffic is concentrated through a rationalised pattern of stations to act as railheads to the surrounding development. Heavy rail is not best used to stop at stations less than a mile apart. Unfortunately this means passengers often go past where they wanted to be just to backtrack on alternative transport.

Before any if this is even contemplated improving the local bus services and giving an incentive to leave the car at home would be the thing to focus on.

I completely agree bus travel needs to be taken more seriously, they have massive benefits for those who value the convenience of stopping at every street, something we see many here value. Busses are an extremely convenient way of getting about and, with the arrival of realtime tracking, even begin to feel like a reliable choice!

I said a few pages back, the way to improve capacity in the Worcester area lies further afield. The single track from Stoke Works to Droitwich and the long signal sections don't help. In the other direction(s), the single line from Norton to Evesham hampers the 2 hour to London goal and the single line from Malvern Wells to almost Hereford with a pursuing loop at Ledbury poses a significant geological problem.

Once all that's sorted a slightly more modern signalling system will be in order.

These would all be positive things, but with long lead times (except perhaps the signalling and layout in Foregate area). If rail transport in and around Worcester took a quantum leap it would overwhelm Foregate in terms of how many trains it could handle and the safe number of passengers who can use the platforms. Whilst Foregate is easily the most popular access post of the two, the site is too constrained to develop into a high quality hub. Successful businesses often stop offering what seem like successful products, or not develop those favoured by focus groups, because they feel it not in keeping with their mission or values. I feel in this case a similar bold and visionary move would be to close the smaller, yet popular station, to allow the other to become the gateway the city presumably deserves, a shining beacon of integrated transport.

I thank you for this thread, as if nothing else, we have discussed the problems of the railway layouts through and around Worcester, which are not dissimilar in their inadequacies to those around Yeovil.

Thank you also for your contributions (also thanks to those with counterarguments and alternative schemes!). I also enjoyed this thread and am delighted to see that it provoked a subsequent discussion about linking stations with various types of people mover.

 

[Bevan Price]

Can I just mention the Brunel problem, change of gauge. Having to change between two trains or between two modes of transport, particularly with baggage will put the travelling public off the whole experience. A ropeway, sorry a non starter.

The new Parkway station will change the dynamic of travel in the area. Just think if you live on the east or south side of the city and commute to Brum, where will you catch your train? Not in the city but the Parkway station.

But will XC increase the length of 170s on the Cardiff/Birmingham/Nottingham services to cater for additional traffic at Worcester Parkway ?

 

[DavidGrain]

As this is in the Birmingham Travel to Work area, I think WMR will have to step in with additional services. They are talking about re-routing the Hereford trains over the Camp Hill line but once they build the stations I don't think that 1 tph or the proposed 2 tph will cover the requirements so they will have to increase the service and will all these trains be terminated at Kings Norton or continue on to somewhere else.

 

[86206]

Once upon a time....How many active bay platforms did Worcester Shrub Hill have? I know platform 3 occasionally has/had a Bristol service in it, but Ive always wondered at the other end on the back road, if this was a terminating platform? If it was....why could that not be reinstated for terminating services from Birmingham/Stourbridge etc.

 

[takno]

Once upon a time....How many active bay platforms did Worcester Shrub Hill have? I know platform 3 occasionally has/had a Bristol service in it, but Ive always wondered at the other end on the back road, if this was a terminating platform? If it was....why could that not be reinstated for terminating services from Birmingham/Stourbridge etc.

The track diagram at https://traksy.uk/live/M+31+WORCSSH is more or less accurate. The track into that platform is the back road from the Up side of the station, with no connection to it from the Birmingham end, although it historically did have one (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gws/S2596.htm). It's not particularly long anyway, so you'd probably struggle to get the trains into it. That diagram also shows a couple of bays on the platform 1 side, although I would guess they're parcels bays rather than passenger platforms.

 

[MarkyT]

Adrian The Rock's page on Worcester is excellent and illustrates very well what facilties are available around Worcester
I link here directly to his diagram which shows just one short passenger bay platform at the London end on the up side, and a couple of former parcels bays on the down side at the same end of the station (these appear lifted and disconnected on recent aerial imagery):
http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Worcester/index.htm#Diagram
Note there are links embedded in the diagram. Click on the signals and other elements in the diagram to be taken to photos of the items.

At the Birmingham end of the up side through platform there is a 70m long rear face with that 'back road' siding alongside that stretches from the London end of the station and has a buffer stop at the Birmingham end. At the London end this is clearly not signalled for passenger use with only a ground dummy for exit towards London and no FPLs on the points - maybe the back face was once used for parcels loading however. With new junctions at the Birmingham end, notionally this and the London end bay might be linked together to form a new full length through platfrom behind the current east wall of the station. The track would clearly have to be slewed east a little behind the wall to make space for a suitable width platform and new access openings made through the wall. 240m standage should be feasible.

 

[eisenach]

How about getting rid of both stations and building a new one (one station to serve them all!) in the triangle between Foregate Street and Shrub Hill. There's lots of old railway land there and we could completely remodel the track layout whilst we're at it. I don't know what road access would be like, but I'm sure it could be solved. All it would need is a bit of money, so no problem there !

 

[Llanigraham]

How about getting rid of both stations and building a new one (one station to serve them all!) in the triangle between Foregate Street and Shrub Hill. There's lots of old railway land there and we could completely remodel the track layout whilst we're at it. I don't know what road access would be like, but I'm sure it could be solved. All it would need is a bit of money, so no problem there !

Why?
There is nothing wrong with the current set-up, and it would inconvenience those that use Foregate St for business, work and leisure.

And road access would be far worse than now!

 

[takno]

How about getting rid of both stations and building a new one (one station to serve them all!) in the triangle between Foregate Street and Shrub Hill. There's lots of old railway land there and we could completely remodel the track layout whilst we're at it. I don't know what road access would be like, but I'm sure it could be solved. All it would need is a bit of money, so no problem there !

Am I the only person who can see the history of threads in here, or do people just enjoy bringing up the same ideas every 3 pages?

 

[eisenach]

You must have a bigger goldfish bowl than me.

 

[Kite159]

Once upon a time....How many active bay platforms did Worcester Shrub Hill have? I know platform 3 occasionally has/had a Bristol service in it, but Ive always wondered at the other end on the back road, if this was a terminating platform? If it was....why could that not be reinstated for terminating services from Birmingham/Stourbridge etc.

I believe the only booked use of platform 3 is with the 11:39 to Bristol, assuming it makes it into the bay and doesn't start from 2A [with the Great Malvern service reversing in 2B]

 

[Harbornite]

How about getting rid of both stations and building a new one (one station to serve them all!) in the triangle between Foregate Street and Shrub Hill. There's lots of old railway land there and we could completely remodel the track layout whilst we're at it. I don't know what road access would be like, but I'm sure it could be solved. All it would need is a bit of money, so no problem there !

Clearly you haven't thought this through.

 

[eisenach]

Meaning ? Do tell !

 

[Llanigraham]

Meaning ? Do tell !

See my reply at 18:43 on Saturday!

 

[eisenach]

See my reply at 18:43 on Saturday!

Fair enough. My comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek; maybe I should have used a smilie or two.

I must say, I found Harbonite's comment unnecessarily patronising. There are all sorts of people on this forum, from those that work in the industry and clearly have a deep knowledge of how things work, to the interested user who often has to deal with the system as it works on a daily basis to the interested enthusiast. I'm sure we can all be kind to each other!

 

[squizzler]

I am interested by the recent proposal to connect the Eden project North in Morecambe with Lancaster Station as discussed on this thread and feel it provides a useful comparison with my own proposal including the opportunity to guess costs.

I feel the worcester link to be technically simpler (shorter, no bends), less intrusive on residential property (see route map on original post)and enjoy a stronger business case due to savings from the closure of Foregate Street Station. I imagine traffic levels would also be more even during the day than a system conceived to serve a tourist attraction whose flows would be more tidal.

 

[DavidGrain]

You sign off your posts with Crayon? Play on.
The cable car idea for the Eden North project is just a bigger pie in the sky idea than yours.

In your idea, have you thought where the pylons will go to hold up the cables without extensive demolition? You talk about the business case being justified by the savings from closing Foregate Street. What savings? Locking the station up and leaving it to rot? Staff savings when the staff would have to be relocated to Shrub Hill to deal with the increase in passengers through that station? What additional revenue will be raised from the cable car when tickets already show Worcester Stations?

Crayon? Play on. Need I say any more?

 

[MarkyT]

Foregate St attracts nearly three times as many passengers as Shrub Hill. While I think some local higher frequency connection between the two could be useful, closure of the more central station would be nonsense.

 

[randyrippley]

I am interested by the recent proposal to connect the Eden project North in Morecambe with Lancaster Station as discussed on this thread and feel it provides a useful comparison with my own proposal including the opportunity to guess costs.

I feel the worcester link to be technically simpler (shorter, no bends), less intrusive on residential property (see route map on original post)and enjoy a stronger business case due to savings from the closure of Foregate Street Station. I imagine traffic levels would also be more even during the day than a system conceived to serve a tourist attraction whose flows would be more tidal.

The Morecambe suggestion is more than just linking the railway station though - it also acts as a park and ride from the motorway for the anticipated tourists (500,000+ extra per year), as an express route to the two Universities (combined around 14,000 students, and several thousand staff) and obviously will be serving a major tourist destination.
Worcester doesn't have any of that kind of demand.
At present there are something like 12 busy double deckers per hour linking Lancaster and Morecambe, most also serving the Universities. Lancaster itself - even after the opening of the Bay Gateway -is one of the most traffic jammed locations in the country. Getting those cars and buses off the roads would completely change the city.
Its intended as a major arteriel route, not a short shuttle