My ideas for Class 323 refurbishment, just a thought...

[willc789]

Whilst being regularly wedged into the often single 323 that feature on the cross city line, especially between Selly Oak and New Street, a thought sprung to mind over there eventual refurbishment (long way off if/when they get one).

Taking inspiration from the LO 378's, would it be possible to remove the traditional seating of the centre carriage and replace it with the longitudinal style featured in the 378's? It would certainly provide much more room for standing passengers going the short hop to University/Selly Oak, and the loadings after these points are sufficiently low that enough seats are still available? A further benefit would be on the football traffic they periodically get?

Anyway...just a thought :P

 

[Rich McLean]

That wouldn't go down well with the majority of passengers, as more of then will then say they can't get a seat and have to stand

 

[willc789]

Is train capacity then purely measured in seating capacity or is there a measure for standing capacity as well? I agree that passengers wont like loosing seats but I would have thought that for the short hops in and out of the city centre, the increased standing room would be well suited, especially given that the Selly Oak-New Street stretch is well patronated by students throughout the day.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is train capacity then purely measured in seating capacity or is there a measure for standing capacity as well? I agree that passengers wont like loosing seats but I would have thought that for the short hops in and out of the city centre, the increased standing room would be well suited, especially given that the Selly Oak-New Street stretch is well patronated by students throughout the day.

Yes, total train capacity includes an allowance for standing passengers.

I do not think that longitudinal seating would be a good idea for London Midland's 323s, as the Cross-City line caters for more Outer-Suburban journeys than does an inner-city orbital service like the London Overground network. A better idea to increase total capacity by increasing standing room would be to install a 2+2 transverse seat "Metro" layout, not dissimilar to the interior of the LM 172s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes, total train capacity includes an allowance for standing passengers.

I do not think that longitudinal seating would be a good idea for London Midland's 323s, as the Cross-City line caters for more Outer-Suburban journeys than does an inner-city orbital service like the London Overground network. A better idea to increase total capacity by increasing standing room would be to install a 2+2 transverse seat "Metro" layout, not dissimilar to the interior of the LM 172s.

Yeah that's what i would say, the 2+2 not only allows more seat occupancy as they are slightly narrower and they remove the problem of the unused middle seat, but this allows for wider isles to fit more standing passengers and allows more space for people to move down the aisle when alighting. Generally it is now accepted this gives the best total train capacity, especially if every space is given around door areas for people standing. Like have 1+1 facing inwards right next to doors.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the 323s have a higher seated capacity than any other EMUs around. As mentioned in another thread the carriages are 23.4m long and a 2.8m width, so there are one of the few types of train in operation with 3+2 seating in a carriage of over 23m in length. They are well suited to high loadings on commuter lines where the platform lengths are not necessarily long enough for 4 or 8 car formations.

If you want a complete internal redesign then why not suggest taking on some 315s or 319s, which will probably get a full internal refit anyway and leave the LM 323s free for the North or the Valley Lines.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Where does this myth about the unused middle seat originate from, in relation to 3 + 2 stock? I've travelled on 323's during peak time out of BHM and MAN and the middle seats have very much been 'in use'.

 

[northwichcat]

Where does this myth about the unused middle seat originate from, in relation to 3 + 2 stock? I've travelled on 323's during peak time out of BHM and MAN and the middle seats have very much been 'in use'.

Yesterday on the 16:17 Manchester-Chester there were about 5 empty middle seats on departure from Altrincham and around 20 standing. Some of those 20 standing may not have seen the free seats and some of those were obviously travelling with other people so may not have had any objection to the middle seats but wanted to stay with the people they were travelling with.

 

[MCW]

I prefer 2+2 seating or 3+2 seating, not standing style. I pay enough for goddamn train tickets now, to pay and stand for the whole or majority of my journey is just plain stupid.

I will also admit, unless I am travelling with people I know or friends, I prefer to sit away from other people. (think that can be said for many people?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where does this myth about the unused middle seat originate from, in relation to 3 + 2 stock? I've travelled on 323's during peak time out of BHM and MAN and the middle seats have very much been 'in use'.

We have Class 323 as our normal units on the Manchester Piccadily to Macclesfield (and onwards) route and I can second your comments regarding the centre seats on services at peak periods as being well used.

 

[Greybeard33]

We have Class 323 as our normal units on the Manchester Piccadily to Macclesfield (and onwards) route and I can second your comments regarding the centre seats on services at peak periods as being well used.

I think the middle seat problem is more prevalent on 142s with the bus-type triple seats. These give two passengers the opportunity to spread themselves and "pretend" it is really a double. I have encountered great reluctance when asking people to make room - eventually grudgingly granted half a place overhanging the aisle!

 

[YorkshireBear]

We have Class 323 as our normal units on the Manchester Piccadily to Macclesfield (and onwards) route and I can second your comments regarding the centre seats on services at peak periods as being well used.

Its very different in Leeds with 150s. As proved twice yesterday on huddersfiels and harrogate lines at peak time. With people standing at the doors rather than sit.

 

[tom1649]

Its very different in Leeds with 150s. As proved twice yesterday on huddersfiels and harrogate lines at peak time. With people standing at the doors rather than sit.

These regional variations are always interesting. Manchester commuters in my experience don't have a problem with using the middle seats on 150s if the train is busy.

 

[northwichcat]

These regional variations are always interesting. Manchester commuters in my experience don't have a problem with using the middle seats on 150s if the train is busy.

Yorkshire did get rid of most of it's 3+2 seating on diesel routes with the Northern Spirit 142s and 144s being refitted with 2+2 seating, so it might be the passengers are like the SWT ones who got used to 2+2 seating and then started seeing 3+2 seating again.

 

[387star]

they are supposed to be getting replaced at some point... or northerns lot added to the fleet

 

[northwichcat]

they are supposed to be getting replaced at some point... or northerns lot added to the fleet

At present that proposal is dead in the water as there is to be no new order of 40 EMU vehicles to replace and enhance the Northern 323 fleet*, just like the 200 DMU vehicle for Northern, TPE and FGW.

* LM audaciously tried to increase the order size and get the cascaded reversed but that was doomed from the start as it would have left Northern with surplus EMUs with no new home (prior to electrification announcements.) And an underlying fundamental of the electrification plans that followed was so that the non-life expired Thameslink stock could be re-homed without going to waste.

 

[whhistle]

They should do 2-1-2 seating, with two aisles

 

[northwichcat]

They should do 2-1-2 seating, with two aisles

Either the seats would be about 15cm wide or the aisles would be so narrow that you'd have to walk sideways down them.

 

[jon0844]

How about no seats and passengers just bring their own camping-style stools?

 

[YorkshireBear]

How about no seats and passengers just bring their own camping-style stools?

This is the future! Put a few peg holes in the floor too and the same trains could turn into sleepers with people bringing tents.

RailUKForums at the cutting edge of British Rolling Stock Design.

 

[317666]

How about no seats and passengers just bring their own camping-style stools?

Angry passenger: "Why can't I get a seat?!"

Staff: "Should've brought one!"