My under-16 proving he's under 16

[mp01]

Hi.

Apologies for my first post being a blatant plea for advice.

My son, just 14, has begun to be asked his age when buying tickets and presenting tickets on trains. I wondered what legal rights railway personnel have to ask this, and if they do have one, what form of proof of age would be most acceptable on the railways (I'd rather not have him carrying his birth certificate or passport around with him)?

Cheers.

 

[sonic2009]

Hi.

Apologies for my first post being a blatant plea for advice.

My son, just 14, has begun to be asked his age when buying tickets and presenting tickets on trains. I wondered what legal rights railway personnel have to ask this, and if they do have one, what form of proof of age would be most acceptable on the railways (I'd rather not have him carrying his birth certificate or passport around with him)?

Cheers.

i would take a photo down to the station, and ask whether they still do a photocard with child written on it. I used to have one with child written across the front of my photograph. With birth certficate for proof of age. Or apply for a citizencard. Tran companies do have a legal right because they are protecting revenue. Because people evry day lie about their age. And its classed as fraud to lie

 

[yorkie]

He must look a lot older than 14 then! Get a photocard. It's unusual for anyone aged 16, or even 17, to pay an adult fare, based on what I've experienced, and not be challenged. I've even known 18 year olds get away with it without being questioned at all. The only time I've known guards question is 16 year olds who looked considerably older than 16 on a family railcard (which is actually valid, one Chiltern guard argued it wasn't valid and threw a paddy when he read the rules that it was valid).

On one occasion at about 10pm at night someone who I'd guess to be 18-20 boarded at somewhere like Derby and when the guard came round asked for a child single to Birmingham. The guard was willing to issue it no questions asked, but the machine broke. He was told to buy at Brum. Needless to say he didn't. When I saw the guard I mentioned this, and said there's no way he was under 16, but the guard didn't seem bothered.

Maybe it's different elsewhere.

 

[Daniel]

If you're in London you can apply for the child oyster card?

Otherwise, as others have said, you could always ask for a photocard, (although you'd need to initially show ID such as a birth certificate / passport to prove your age for the photocard).

But then, as others have said, it's increasingly rare to be challenged at all..

 

[142094]

There used to be something called a Citizen Card, which is basically an ID card for those under 18. I had one when I was 16 incase I was asked for ID, but no longer use it as I have the dirivng licence.

 

[transportphoto]

http://www.citizencard.com/ - the official site for CitezenCard's.

The cards a 'PASS' holographed.

The price is £15 - but many retailers offer co-branded leaflets giving money off; my local One-Stop Newsagents does.

 

[222007]

Hi.

Apologies for my first post being a blatant plea for advice.

My son, just 14, has begun to be asked his age when buying tickets and presenting tickets on trains. I wondered what legal rights railway personnel have to ask this, and if they do have one, what form of proof of age would be most acceptable on the railways (I'd rather not have him carrying his birth certificate or passport around with him)?

Cheers.

Firstly welcome to the forum secondly we are entitled to ask a persons age if we believe them to be 16 or older on a childs ticket. You would be surprised how many adults travel on childs tickets. The area i work (im an RPI) a lot of people do carry there passports i spose this is the only real way to be 100% certain of the age (i've never been shown a citizen card). A birth certificate means nothing really whats to stop someone using a childs birth cert? they dont contain photo's

 

[yorkie]

You would be surprised how many adults travel on childs tickets.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if something like 90% of 16 year olds are on child tickets! I bet sales of YNG railcards are very low for 16 year olds. I've even known people aged 16/17 ask for a ticket and been issued a child ticket without them asking for it.

My proposed solution would be to offer free railcards to anyone who requests one aged 16/17 valid until the day before they turn 18. The chances of ATOC doing this are about zero, even though it could actually increase revenue.

 

[CarterUSM]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if something like 90% of 16 year olds are on child tickets! I bet sales of YNG railcards are very low for 16 year olds. I've even known people aged 16/17 ask for a ticket and been issued a child ticket without them asking for it.

My proposed solution would be to offer free railcards to anyone who requests one aged 16/17 valid until the day before they turn 18. The chances of ATOC doing this are about zero, even though it could actually increase revenue.

In Scotland, youngsters from the age of 16-18 are entitled to a Scottish youth railcard, it has many of the same restrictions/validity of a YNG, and it can also be used as a season ticket photocard with the holder entitled to 50 per cent off a season ticket. This is issued free of charge, by voucher redemption at a manned railway station.

 

[Greenback]

It may be a little unrelated, but these days many people consider a 16 year old a child. I was born in July, so I had only just turned 16 when i left school officially and went to college. but there were many of my classmates who were 16 long before they did their Summer exams!

For this reason, plus the fact that so many 16 and 17 year olds stay in full time education now, there is more tolerance for 16 and 17 year olds on half rate tickets. Add to this the many schemes like Tfl's where 16 and 17 year old's cna get free or reduced rate travel, and it's hardly surprising if some young people genuinely think they can pay child rates until they are 18.

Give ID cards to all 14-17 year olds, rename the railcard 18-25 and allow half rate (with card) up to the 18th birthday! No card, pay full price!

 

[ChrisTheRef]

How about a photocopy of the passport?

As long as it's clear, I can't see where there can be an argument

 

[cuccir]

How about a photocopy of the passport?

As long as it's clear, I can't see where there can be an argument

This would be a good option; you might want to mark 'photocopy' on it marker or block out the passport number etc - leave name, picture and D.o.B only

 

[Mojo]

On a line I often used to travel on, children with season tickets had yellow coloured Photocards (as opposed to pink ones for Adults). Do they still do different Photocards for children and can you get them without buying a season?

 

[mp01]

Thanks all. Although he's 5' 8" he looks like a gangly 14 year old rather than a 16+ year old, so it did seem quite keen that he was asked twice in the same day, especially as the fare paid was only £1.05. Photocopy of a passport seems a cheap solution - I couldn't really justify spending £15 on a citizencard in the context of the fare amount. Arriva Trains Wales, by the way.

 

[philjo]

Your local council may be able to issue a child photocard.

In Hertfordshire, anyone aged 11-15 (& 16-18 in full time education) is required to obtain a photocard from the Herts County Council wichi they must then show to the bus driver in order to get the child rate fares on all local buses within the county.

http://www.hertsdirect.org/envroads/roadstrans/publictransport/schoolandcollegetransport/savercard/

I believe that FCC accept also these as proof of age for issuing child rate rail tickets.

 

[Wyvern]

I was going to ask about ths.

In Derbyshire you can get a b-line 1 card if you're 11 to 13 or a b-line 2 for 14 to 18. You dont have to be in full time education. Both also give various discounts in shope etc. but the b-line 1 should be acceptable as proof of age, certainly within the county, while the b-line 2 gives you half fare on journeys within the county.

I'm sure other local authorities have similar schemes.

 

[transportphoto]

Anything with the PASS hologram should be accepted as proof of age, also Passports, International Identity Cards, Driving Licences etc...

However this is not the case in all situations!

 

[142094]

Not sure what situation a passport or driver's licence would be refused, unless it is a blatant forgery or the wrong person in the photo.

Going back to the OP, £15 is not that much to pay for ID, and the child still has a few years to go before they can apply for a provisional driving licence. Might be worth the initial outlay to not have trouble in the next few years.

 

[WestCoast]

It's unusual for anyone aged 16, or even 17, to pay an adult fare, based on what I've experienced, and not be challenged. I've even known 18 year olds get away with it without being questioned at all.

Yes, I know it happens. Unless the system is changed, people will always try. Some rail staff seem more bothered about it than others. In the GMPTE area they have proof of age cards which are issued. The guards don't usually bother to ask for this, but TPEs and Northern's revenue protection certainly do. Someone was recently fined for being caught over age repeatedly I believe. Yet elsewhere hardly anyone bothers, especially on Virgin and XC. Certain TOCs are more keen than others, I feel that trains in an 'urban' setting are less tolerant about child tickets and longer distance services disinterested in checking age.

In Germany child fares finish at 14, yet a very heavily discounted BahnCard (rail card) is available to young people above that age.

 

[CarterUSM]

On a line I often used to travel on, children with season tickets had yellow coloured Photocards (as opposed to pink ones for Adults). Do they still do different Photocards for children and can you get them without buying a season?

Indeed, these yellow photocards are still issued for child seasons, though renewal must be carried out at a manned station, they are not allowed to be renewed on board.

 

[wintonian]

Not sure what situation a passport or driver's licence would be refused, unless it is a blatant forgery or the wrong person in the photo.

Going back to the OP, £15 is not that much to pay for ID, and the child still has a few years to go before they can apply for a provisional driving licence. Might be worth the initial outlay to not have trouble in the next few years.

Driver's licence for a 16yr old?

 

[CarterUSM]

Driver's licence for a 16yr old?

You can ride a moped at 16.

 

[bnm]

Yep. Provisional licence for mopeds up to 50cc available to 16 year olds.

Also full licence available to 16 year olds to drive a car (subject to passing their test) if they receive Disability Living Allowance at the higher rate (mobility component).

Oh, also from 16 for tractors not exceeding 2.45m in width.

 

[devon_metro]

16 Year olds may also drive a tractor on the public highway (without test *I believe*)

 

[wintonian]

All true and motorised lawnmowers I believe.

 

[Ivo]

Thanks all. Although he's 5' 8" he looks like a gangly 14 year old rather than a 16+ year old, so it did seem quite keen that he was asked twice in the same day, especially as the fare paid was only £1.05. Photocopy of a passport seems a cheap solution - I couldn't really justify spending £15 on a citizencard in the context of the fare amount. Arriva Trains Wales, by the way.

If it's Arriva it's to be expected that they'll try something unreasonable; he certainly does not sound like he looks 16. I was told the day before my 16th birthday by an Arriva bus driver that my childrate bus pass wasn't valid "because it wasn't me" (it was 40 months old! Of course it didn't look exactly like me!). Now besides the fact that virtually everywhere else in the country allows up to 16 child rate travel anyway, and that she had seen the pass before then, it shows the kind of stunts Arria will pull to get a tad extra revenue. (The only non-Arriva company I would expect to do this is First Capital Connect.) You really shouldn't need anything, but the passport photocopy idea may be worth persuing.

 

[wintonian]

What about a college ID - if he's at college ofcourse?

 

[bnm]

What about a college ID - if he's at college ofcourse?

Being 14 at the moment, that's unlikely.

 

[wintonian]

I really shouldn't post when I'm so tired, I come up really stupid suggestions

For some reason I had under 18 going through my mind.

 

[scrapy]

Its so difficult to tell someones age nowadays. I have often taken passengers word for it saying they are under 16, only for them to open their wallet or purse to pay and the first thing on show is a driving licence. Have even had 'under 16's' trying to pay on credit card. The child fares should be for accompanied children only and stop when a child reaches 11. There should be a free national scholars railcard (with photocard) which offers 50% discount on fares, 75% when accompanied by a fare paying adult. They should also be valid for purchase of season tickets. These railcards should not be accepted on board when there has been an opportunity to purchase a ticket before travel. No railcard no discount. Then everyone would know where they stand. The railcards could be withdrawn for serious breaches of byelaws.